: found a cool deutz repowered chevy



freedeutz
09-03-2010, 03:08 PM
was surfing around looking for info regarding deutz engine swaps and found this. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=389561
it appears that he didn't box in his frame, was going to box my 70 dodge d-100 frame before i swapped my f5l912 in but now i think i'll just slap it together. hum......................

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
09-03-2010, 06:10 PM
this is really a cool truck...

DieselSchlepper
10-06-2010, 05:27 AM
He was on here, but didn't post all the pics and stuff. Thread ends suddenly in April. WOnder why? Mine runs better and better.

fte
10-06-2010, 10:24 AM
He was on here, but didn't post all the pics and stuff. Thread ends suddenly in April. WOnder why? Mine runs better and better.

What MPG are you getting?

K-TRON
10-06-2010, 02:41 PM
come on Pat, post some more images and videos, we want to hear that Deutz power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris

DieselSchlepper
10-23-2010, 07:18 AM
We are in the process of buying a vid camera. The truck does run really well. I would think it runs about like a carburated 460 V8. I'm surprised there are not more Deutz conversions.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
10-23-2010, 09:29 AM
I'm surprised there are not more Deutz conversions.

it's more a "cultural" problem than anything... a deutz is almost what nobody expects to see into an american truck with its air cooling...

watercooleds are still easier to control the engine temperature due to the possibility of restrict the water flow when needed but a deutz with its simpler design seems to be more adequated to a swap...

DieselSchlepper
10-23-2010, 02:43 PM
Just got back from towing 2600 lbs of coal from about 60 miles out over some pretty hilly terrain. Started with a steep run down a short hill with a hairpin turn and a 300 yard run up a steep country grade. Didn't realize until was into it. Didn't get much of a run just off the gas on the gas. Took it real nice in 3rd. I'm really happy with this engine in this truck! Runs quieter and happier under a load.

403oldsman
10-27-2010, 06:47 PM
Just to let you guys know whats going on with the truck still in progress. I got a new job 7 days a week, so not a whole lot of time to work on it. I really didn't get to run the engine a whole lot until in the truck. I motor had a funny "lope" to it at idle. Had injectors checked. Not the problem. Check valves and all the exhaust valves were burnt from valve lash getting too tight according to the machinist. Valve lash is 0.006" cold.(according to the service Manuel) Had valves re ground with 1 new valve guide and all new valve springs.( the parts are cheap for this motor through memo-omega) Still not the problem. Remove injection pump and had checked. Not the problem. Did have them turn up the fuel 20%. Motor should be about 130 hp now. The factory timing is 20 btdc for EPA motors like this one. A tractor engine is 30 btdc. Moved timing using diesel shops inductive meter to 30 btdc. Timing was at 10 btdc. Final seems to have fixed the problem.The motor also has a lot more power. The only expensive part of the motor has been the head bolt which were $12.50 a piece. The motor does not throw any black smoke under load. So fuel might be able to go farther. I do not like the automatic transmission so I'm switching to a nv4500 i picked up for $200. Also I'm starting on a turbo exhaust manifold. I could see the piston oil cooler jets with the jugs removed. The jugs still have hash marks on the side walls. I might also switch gears from 3.08 to 3.73 because overdrive is almost too low of rpm.

I couldn't get pictures to load on this website. I also didn't box the frame because all the pick up is intended for is daily driver. Hopefully it gets good fuel mileage. Motor runs like the tractor I grew up with.

DieselSchlepper
10-29-2010, 10:04 AM
Mine has that weird lope too just above idle. Where is the screw to turn the power up? How did you measure 20 percent? If you turbo this engine don't you want the timin to be closer to straight up - like 10 %. I always read that close to zero was desirable for turbo apps. Have to find out how to check timing. Just called the shop and they say that one engine that runs up to 3000 uses 35 degrees.

403oldsman
10-29-2010, 08:17 PM
I had the injection shop turn the fuel up. They measure the volume of fuel to determine 20%. I did this when I had the pump off. To turn up the fuel there is a cap on the back of the rqv governor housing held on by 2 bolts. Rove move that and adjust. I don't remember if tighten gave more rack travel or if loosen did. I could give you the injection shops phone number if you are interest. They will tell you how to adjust. The timing is set according to deutz's specs from my deutz engine manual. If it was turbo the manual says it would be 34 degrees.

To check the timing i used a meter with a piozo transducer and measured out 30 degrees of advancement on the harmonic balancer. To adjust, remove the fan belt idler pulley to access the injection pump's slotted gear and move according.

DieselSchlepper
10-30-2010, 01:27 PM
Can you send me that number? I have another one of these engines and FIAT transmission. Got it for 350. It looks better than the one I put in my truck. My shop has a 5 that was destroyed by a turbo. What does your shop say?

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
10-30-2010, 06:58 PM
My shop has a 5 that was destroyed by a turbo.

i was considering to import a brand-new deutz and intending to turbo it... how many boost was this destroyed engine running?

403oldsman
10-30-2010, 08:50 PM
The only turbo deutz i've seen is my grandpas 130 06 tractor. I believe it ran 12-15 psi of boost. However it did run 15.5 compression vs 17.5 compression in nonturbo. If a 6.2 diesel with 22.5 CR can handle the BANK'S turbo kit psi of 11. A deutz should be able to handle it fine and with no worry.

DieselSchlepper
10-31-2010, 06:25 PM
12 to 15 lbs is reasonable for an engine that is intended for boost. I will stick to 5 to (7)9 lbs for a turbo upgrade and be very careful to keep egt's low with a corresponding fuel increase. Most upgrade engines are blown by getting boost happy. The Deutz design is great but its strength is limited. Ideally the compression will be lowered but this can be handled to some extent by retarding the timing. Most gas upgrades cut the timing advance for safety unless some very careful tuning is done.

K-TRON
10-31-2010, 07:05 PM
The way I understand it, turbocharging creates back-pressure, which causes the head of the engine to heat up substantially more. With an air cooled diesel, there is only so much cooling available to begin with. Deutz air cooled diesels run hot to begin with, (which is one of the reasons why they are as efficient as they are), turbocharging overloads the cooling system, warping heads, and causes excessive piston wear.

I am sure this could be compensated with an adequately sized intercooler, but then it wouldn't have all of the advantages of being a radiator-less engine.

When you see a stock turbocharged Deutz air cooled diesel, it will have a very small turbocharger on it.
Remember, you need fuel to make boost. Deutz engines do not burn alot of fuel so you cant slap on a big turbocharger and expect it to work.

Chris

403oldsman
10-31-2010, 09:23 PM
My deutz cylinder heads on a 90+ degree day runs about 110 to 130 degrees at an idle. Deutz air cooled engines are known for being able to run in more extreme environments than water cooled engines ( German tanks in africa) and stay cool enough to run. From growing up with a turbo and non turbo deutz tractors (100 06 and 130 06) I can say that the additional air charge of the engine would take the motor longer to warm up and longer to stop smoking when under load. The timing on a turboed deutz is actually more advanced than a NA deutz. I guessing because the extra heat from advanced timing helps spool the turbo. Which leads me to believe that the egts are not hot enough to spool the turbo quick enough. Which would lead to the thermo efficiency of the motor and why if does not need much fuel. If you can use the heat of combustion in a downward motion rather than absorbed through the head or cylinder wall the motor will be more efficient. I could be wrong. All i have to go off is thermodynamics, a deutz manual and and growing up with two deutz tractors.

From talking with the local deutz mechanic i do'nt believe you can warp a head. He said he has seen scored cylinders from belts breaking and streched head bolts from either, but never a warped head. Remember more fuel more heat (btus), not necessarily more air more heat. The water cooled motors that run hot tend to be the ones blowing black.

DieselSchlepper
11-01-2010, 05:19 AM
Boost raises the compression ratio and increases the incidence of pressure spikes due to detonation. If your mechanical system is not strong enough to cope with additional boost it breaks. If you don't tune carefully it blows. I think the F5L 912 can handle some boost but not as much as a turbo 913. Necessary to be very careful and judicious to keep the engine healthy.

403oldsman
11-01-2010, 09:18 AM
Can you send me that number? I have another one of these engines and FIAT transmission. Got it for 350. It looks better than the one I put in my truck. My shop has a 5 that was destroyed by a turbo. What does your shop say?

What exactly happen to this engine? Did you get the number I sent you?

I'm not saying I'm going to give it a lot of boost. Iwas was just going to have about 12 to 15psi with as little of black as i could get. I am more or less going for greater efficency.A NA deisel engine at wide open trottle at best only greats 85% cylinder fill of atomsphere.

DieselSchlepper
11-02-2010, 09:22 AM
Thanks. I got the number in my email. If you're going to try and boost a Deutz NA engine that high, you had better develop some very precise tuning parameters. Many a strong watercooled head has been blown off by optimistic boosting and tuning deficiencies. What happens is they start out alright and then keep turning the available screws without adjusting other parameters. Not trying to be negative or discouraging but these aren't cheap engines. I would want to monitor EGTs, O2, and Knock at the very least. As you increase boost in an NA engine you retard timing to decrease detonation. Its better to start with the timing toward zero and then advance while adjusting other parameters especially keeping a rich mixture. Them Germans design for a very specific purpose and I would start out conservatively assuming there are very definite built-in limitations.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
11-02-2010, 05:53 PM
you guys are making me reconsider the idea of a turbo 3-banger deutz 913... maybe a 60hp non-turbo would already not be that bad considering it wouldn't be used for towing, just commuting and ocasional light hauling with a s10...

DieselSchlepper
11-03-2010, 12:07 PM
I'd like to have an original turbo deutz. That way you know you can load it without it coming apart.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
11-03-2010, 04:09 PM
I'd like to have an original turbo deutz.

me too, but i have only seen factory-turbocharged 4 and 6cyl versions... i would want a 3cyl as it seems to be very easier to fit into a 2nd-gen chevy s10/blazer...

403oldsman
11-04-2010, 10:09 AM
It sounds like you you are trying to draw parallels between gas and diesel engines. That is like comparing apples and oranges. A gas running lean will run hot, and diesel will run cooler. A gas can have pre-detonation while its completely against the reason diesels work ( fuel injection is the only thing to start Ignition). As I've said before right out of my deutz manual the timing for NA is 30 and the timing for Turbo is 34. Black and white. I will agree that egts are critical to watch as well as boost pressures. There are safe bounders for what any engine can handle. Remember these motors stand up to severe duty in tractors and do not have any problems. If you want to turbo a Na deutz and you are afraid of too high of compression, you could shim the bottom of the jug. These motors need to have some timing >15 other wise the motor will miss and wet stack while carboning up your combustion chamber. Ask me how I know.

DieselSchlepper
11-04-2010, 11:42 AM
The point is you have to have the mixture right and everything else correct. Timing is advanced on the turbo engine because of a different piston and lower static compression. If a turbo causes the engine to run cold because of increased air, why monitor egts? Older diesels detonate constantly - are you saying that raising the dynamic compression ratio by adding 12 to 15 lbs of boost will not increase the force and effect of pressure spikes caused by detonation? Why do manufactures waste so much time and money on development and strength for turbo and supercharged applications?

I'm not out to shoot down your ideas and ambitions. Why don't you just go ahead and add 12 to 15 lbs of boost to an F5L 912, do it in a build up thread, run it and keep us updated on how good it works. We sit at your feet with hopes of learning. If you can do it and it holds together then great. I'll do it too. I have a lovely F4L 912 that I wish was a turbo 913.

403oldsman
11-04-2010, 11:09 PM
The reason they monitor egt with a turboed engine is because when there is more air in an engine ( boost) the manufacturers can give it more fuel. the egts go up when A: the engine slows down under load as wells as the turbo because less exhaust movement so less air goes in but the same fuel is there. B: the engine is revved up applying more fuel than there is air for because the turbo has not spooled up yet. Pretty elementary, too much fuel= hot egts. If you don't believe me crank up the fuel on your deutz and see if it runs hot. Until you spend the days after days and year after year operating both types of deutz engines I don't think you have creditability to criticize someone who has.
You are almost right about the timing with a lower static compression, but if the was more heat there with a turbo, there would be no need to have it that far advanced. Diesel engines can run as lean as 100:1 hence the motor has no throttle plate. Think about it.

403oldsman
11-04-2010, 11:56 PM
Oh i got to thinking about it. You are going to have to contact a lot of people. Gale Banks with there add on turbo kits, M&W with there add on turbo kits for tractors, ATS with ther add on kits.Anyone who has ever turbo a NA Cummins 4b or 6b. Any one who has ever taken a turbo from a 6.5 diesel and put it on a 6.2 diesel. Any one who has put a turbo on a NA IDI 7.3 diesel. Mercedes Benz diesels. A lot of Oliver and John Deere, Allis, Case, International, and many more owners who put a turbo on there tractors.I should probably take the aftermarket m&w kit off my 1600 oliver because when they put it on back in the 60's it must have blown up and not told anyone. There is a guy on here some where that put a turbo on a ford tractor and didn't touch the fuel and it hasn't blown up yet or ran hot and he gained power. Most of these engines were never intended for a turbo and gasp... They are still running. Hell there was even a company who made a turbo kit for the pos 5.7 diesel and it worked. I am not the first person to ever turbo a NA diesel. I not trying invent the wheel or make it better, just trying to use it.

DieselSchlepper
11-05-2010, 05:09 AM
Go ahead and do your engine. Show us how it works out. We are talking about an F5L 912, right? You will need to be civil and polite on this board. There are those with more experience than you that think the 912 series should not be turbocharged - this is your chance to prove them wrong. Just do it... All I'm talking about is being careful and finding out what tuning parameters to adjust. You seem to regard this as a challenge against the feasibility of just throwing a turbo on the engine and dialing in what ever boost you want. I think you should be careful with this application in particular - that's all. I would far more welcome an intelligent and focused discussion of overcoming the challenges afforded by the 912's design than shotgun arguments covering the entire field of NA to turbo diesels. Try to focus on this discussion and something great can come out of it.

403oldsman
11-05-2010, 08:52 AM
You better let these guys know that the motor shouldn't run .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfYg_rRHuA0

DieselSchlepper
11-05-2010, 09:14 AM
So we are not here to shoot anyone down or demonstrate superiority of knowledge. We are trying to add to the knowledge base. So if we disagree that is only trying to get to the truth.;)

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
11-05-2010, 09:36 AM
in the case of aircooled diesels is harder to upgrade their cooling systems to meet the demands of an overboosted engines, while in a watercooled we can always find a bigger radiator, an improved thermostatic valve, fans, and the hell out... in the case of an aircooled there is always the limitation to the air flow and oil cooling and even not boiling nor freezing the air still has a smaller thermal capacity than water... sometimes i think if it would really worth the money to buy a deutz and turbocharge it in a safe way to avoid severe damages but are some things that are not just a matter of money saved, there is all the pleasure due to the engine swap done and all the work dedicated to have something that your neighbor won't get straight from the dealer...

DieselSchlepper
11-05-2010, 10:29 AM
Yeah: Be cool to convert my F4L 912 to a 913. I would be very careful to engineer it so that it would duplicate factory reliability though. That would mean a through understanding of all the variables.

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
11-05-2010, 06:31 PM
wouldn't it be easier, and maybe cheaper, to take an already turbocharged bf4l913? btw which components are you intending to change in your current engine to upgrade it from 912 to 913?

DieselSchlepper
11-05-2010, 07:34 PM
I was wondering today if the pistons and heads from a 913 would fit the 912 bottom end. The stroke on the turbo version is different and the rods and bottom end bearings are heavier. Maybe in a less demanding application we could put a 913 top end on a 912 bottom. The bottom on most turbo applications is designed more robust to resist detonation spikes. Spikes are premature ignition events that slam against the upstroke and cause damage to the crank and bearings. That is why fine tuning is important in these adaptations. I wonder what 403oldsman thinks about this? I wish he would talk instead of

403oldsman
11-05-2010, 11:11 PM
I guess I don't understand how a diesel can have premature ignition if the injection of fuel in a diesel engine is what control ignition. That principal is the sole reason diesel engines can have high compression and not self destruct (as high as 25:1). There are mutifuel diesel engines That can run on both gas and diesel and not predetonated. In fact some of the 6.2 diesels used in the military were like that. The only modifications was harden injection pump components. The 478 Hercules in my White 2-135 is the same way. The motor just doesn't have the same hp on gas as it does with diesel.

403oldsman
11-05-2010, 11:13 PM
Btw some of the heads for a 912 and a 913 have the same part number as do the head bolts.

DieselSchlepper
11-06-2010, 06:55 AM
I guess I don't understand how a diesel can have premature ignition if the injection of fuel in a diesel engine is what control ignition. That principal is the sole reason diesel engines can have high compression and not self destruct (as high as 25:1). There are mutifuel diesel engines That can run on both gas and diesel and not predetonated. In fact some of the 6.2 diesels used in the military were like that. The only modifications was harden injection pump components. The 478 Hercules in my White 2-135 is the same way. The motor just doesn't have the same hp on gas as it does with diesel.
I think it's because adding a pressure charge to the cylinder increases compression because there is more material in the chamber than with an NA charge. Therefore the air charge reaches combustion temperature earlier in the stroke because of increased pressure and the potential is there for a spike - premature ignition. So if part or all of the injection interval is there a little early it pops back against the piston because it's hot earlier in the stroke. That is why factory turbo engines have everything stronger - pistons, rods, bearings. Don't you think older diesels are overbuilt in general in order to handle detonation? That clatter we all love is actually wasted energy because of detonation due to timing inperfections. The computer control engines cut down on this and the Common Rail has almost eliminated it. That is why they are so quiet and more efficient if it wasn't for the pollution/soot control in the DPF.

I'm sure the multifuel on gas has less power because the timing is automatically retarded to compensate for increased volatility of the gas versus diesel.

I admit that my basic reasoning comes from studying gas turbos and I'm all ears to find out the differences to diesels. That is why I love this site so much - the is a place to learn and grow.

I'm sure I can learn a lot from you, sir.

403oldsman
11-06-2010, 09:37 AM
In order to have detonation you must have two things. One Something to burn( oxidized) and two something to oxidize ( air)it. That is why a diesel can't predetonate. If there is no fuel in the camber to burn,there would be noting to become ignited (oxidized). The new diesel are quieter for a variety of reason including the amount of times they fire they injectors. A Duramax has up to 7 injections per complete cycle. Including partial injections on the compression stoke to minimize noise. As well as partial injection on exhaust stroke to minimize noise as well as emissions.

The mutifuel diesel do not change there timing. The reason they have less power is because the speed at which gas burns (very fast) and the amount of btus in diesel fuel. I believe that diesel fuel can burn up to 40 degrees after tdc. Thatis the reason diesel make low end torque.
The primary reasons diesels are turbo is because by nature they can not get enough air at high rpms. Diesel do not suck air in to the engine (no vacuum) they instead rely on the atmosphere weight 14.7psi to fill the cylinder. At idle the cylinder is fill approximately 97%, at high rpm the cylinder might be filled at best 75% to 85% due to not enough time to fill. That is why a positive pressure makes the engine fill like it has more power at high rpm And increases the efficiency. Yes turboing a engine raises compression (higher compression generally the more efficient) but if you fuel timing is correct the motor should not self detonate due to fuel injection is the only thing that can cause ignition. Yes in order to turbo a diesel there needs to be things keep in balance and lines defined. I have already calculated mine as well as spoke it a local deutz mechanic to reach reasonable limitations. 20% more fuel 12 to 15 psi boost.

DieselSchlepper
11-06-2010, 10:29 AM
That's good. I thought about the BTU difference later but let it go.

I agree with this:

"That is why a diesel can't predetonate. There is no fuel in the camber to burn."

"Yes turboing a engine raises compression, but if you fuel timing is correct the motor should not self detonate due to fuel injection is the only thing that can cause ignition."

"Yes in order to turbo a diesel there needs to be things keep in balance and lines defined. I have already calculated mine as well as spoke it a local deutz mechanic to reach reasonable limitations. 20% more fuel 12 to 15 psi boost."

Do tell!

DieselSchlepper
11-06-2010, 03:15 PM
Basically when you turbo an application that is very highly engineered like the Deutz 912 you have to be aware that you will probably significantly reduce the service life of the motor depending on how it is used.

DieselSchlepper
11-07-2010, 06:44 AM
I see from the manuals that the 912 series is not that different mechanically from the 913 and 913 T. The "C" or aftercooled version seems to be more beefed up in the bottom. That's good news. On my F4L 912 I'm going to get the 913 turbo and set it up. I will monitor engine conditions and be careful and try to match factory output. It looks like the only difference is the compression ratio which may be due to cylinder head height only. That's real good news! Change the base shims, timing intake and exhaust and bolt the right turbo on and viola: F4L 913T, a much more expensive engine as far as I can see. Apparently Deutz does not change the turbo version of their engines that much like I expected because of what most other manufactures do. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Here's a good question: if all things are basically equal then how much does the factory turn up the pump for the 913?

I wonder if the service life of the turbo'd engines is as long as the 912's? I'll bet not.

403oldsman
11-07-2010, 09:05 AM
Currently the f6l913 in our deutz 130 06 has 14,000 hours on it and has not been overhauled. The f6l912 in our 100 06 has 8000 hours and has not been apart either. They are exceptional since most tractors are due for an overhaul around 5000 hrs. Most of the hours on the tractors is under full load. I doubt they will get that severe of duty continuously in a automotive application. It you do the math at 60mph the 130 06 has 840,000 miles and the 100 06 has 480,000miles. The most I have ever heard of on a deutz tractor is 20,000 hrs. That is 1,200,000 miles with no overhaul.

Are you going to up grade the size of you oil cooler like a 913 or just monitor engine oil temperatures?

DieselSchlepper
11-07-2010, 11:21 AM
Mine is off an atlas copco air compressor and I think it has the upgraded cooler already. My shop buddy says he has seen this same engine go 20,000 on powerplant apps, before overhaul. AFAIK the atlas air compressors usu give out around 3500. It sat since 91 and I brought it in out of sub freezing temps and it started in about 2 minutes. The F5L in my truck runs too cold. Planning on replacing the oil cooler with a thermostically controlled one off a DX90. These are awesome motors. I wish the V6 didn't weigh 1500 and the V8 a ton.

DieselSchlepper
11-07-2010, 11:26 AM
How about heavier head studs? Is the block too hard to machine? You know, some of the tractor pull guys do super with Deutz. I've never been able to find any builds. Somewhere there is secret knowledge....

I was talking to my shop buddy about the 2011 series too. There is a 90 hp plus turbo version that weighs 525lbs and is smaller overall. Just have to deal with a timing belt.

403oldsman
11-07-2010, 12:28 PM
You could probably up grade the head bolts to studs , but length must be taken into account as currently the heads of two of the bolts are in the intake and exhaust ports. Too long might restrict air flow. the bolts could get improved as currently they neck down after the treads and neck up again right before the head of the bolt. I don"t know the metric sizes, but it's about 1/2 inch treads necked down to about 7/16 shaft. I realize there is 4 bolts and the heads are separate. How many bolts does a cummins 4bt have per cylinder (total head bolts/cylinders)?

The other thing you could possible do it make a plate to bolt on to the intake and exhaust ports and machine out the ports. It would be kind of like a head girdle. And just bolt the intake and exhaust manifold over top. I don't know if i explained that very clearly or not. It is just an idea I have to strength the top end.

I have seen the deutz tractor pullers, but like you said nobody is talking.

I also got to thinking about it. If anyone is concerned about not enough cooling air movement, just put a smaller pulley on the fan. In all reality you could move more that double the amount of air pretty easy.

On a side note the part number for a fan for the f5l912 and the f6l912 is the same. I don't know if the pulley is different or not.

DieselSchlepper
11-07-2010, 01:06 PM
I was thinking about that girdle based on the F1 racing technology used on Honda engines bottom ends. A better idea than the famous chevy 4 bolt main.

My F5L has a smaller pulley than the tractor engines. The bolts in the ports - is there meat to use a shorter bold with a counter sink?

403oldsman
11-07-2010, 11:03 PM
The head of the bolts are about flush with the floor of the runner the way it is I don't know if Iwould want to recess them any more.

By the way instead of the bottom of the jug, they do have different thickness of fire rings. When i had the heads off mine I was surprise to find a fire ring. The local deutz mechanic said he has only seen them on 913s. I don't know exactly why mine has them. Most deutz 912 have none, rather more shims at the bottom. I believe there are 4 or 5 different sizes to choose from according to my parts supplier. They can size it according to the engines serial number.

I think I'm going to use a manifold like the guys in the video for my turbo. I was going to make one, but cast iron from the factory is more reliable than the SS I was going to use as well as quicker to do.

The girdle that you mentioned honda used was light years a head of chevy 4 bolt mains. However the sbc goes back to 1955, it's just old school tech.

The injection shop I gave you the phone number of should be able to tell you the increase in fuel that a 913 has over a 912.

DieselSchlepper
11-08-2010, 05:44 AM
Is the squish chamber different in the pistons? Just what differences are there between these engines? 912 vs. 913

The Deutz turbo manifold is basically a bolt on. Good deal - works on all of them!

I think that using a really souped up over sized precision stud on the heads might be a big improvement. Someone said the block is too hard to machine - true? It will be pretty easy to make a one piece girdle to attach to the exhaust port and intake I think. Haven't looked yet.

My shop has two F3Ls - one bad one good. Cheaper engine to experiment with. Nice for a small truck or a jeep. I know of an F2l 912 in a jeep doing a good job for climbing around in the PA mountains.

403oldsman
11-08-2010, 08:26 AM
I don't know what all the differences are so I rather not comment other than oil cooler, timing, and lower static compression. The earlier ones do use the same heads and head bolts.

By looking at the engine I would say the the deutz engineers designed the motor to have a weak point to protect the rest of the engine. I bet the head bolts are suppose to be the first thing that gives. The local mechanic says he has seen a number of stretched bolts due to too much either.

Are you going to use the thermoflame in the intake manifold for cold starting? I adapted mine over to a cummins grid heater. Mine was burned out plus if the solenoid for the thermoflame fuel sticks it pumps raw diesel into the intake while the motor is running.

I try to find it some where, but when deutz did the pick re power in the 80's ( $8000 dollars including engine) they put a 300,000 mile transferable warranty on the crankshaft and a I believe 100,000 mile on the rest of the engine.

For the 5 cylinder manifold It looks like they used a 6 and cut the back off and welded on a plate on.

DieselSchlepper
11-08-2010, 09:54 AM
I like what you did with the grid heater. My thermoflame needs hooked up. I was thinking about a dual battery setup and just crank and heat the intake with a torch if necessary; I have an inline gear reduction starter. I started it last winter on some cold days without too much trouble just bu cranking. I'll see what gives I guess pretty soon. THe grid heter is proably the best idea. A whiff of gasoline vapor or propane is harmless I hear. My oil pan has about 6 different plugs in it I'll bet I can find a heater to fit one of them.

The 1011 and 2011 have rocker arms designed to fail if the belt breaks so that makes sense. Better to blow a head off than ruin a crank. I

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
11-08-2010, 07:42 PM
My shop has two F3Ls - one bad one good. Cheaper engine to experiment with. Nice for a small truck or a jeep. I know of an F2l 912 in a jeep doing a good job for climbing around in the PA mountains.

how is the weight of the 2-banger? maybe would be cool to fit into a suzuki vitara...

DieselSchlepper
11-10-2010, 10:57 AM
Talked to two of my shop guys today, they say:

1. The 92 NA and the 913 Turbo are two distinct engines. THe 913 has a 1 cm longer stroke and the bore is 1/2 cm bigger and the 913 head will not fit the 912 block without machining. My small shop manual does not have this info but the big manual with the German translation does.

2. Deutz made a F6L 912 T and they had problems with it in the field

3. An old guy in a shop in PA., Hoover by name, used to experiment with turboed 912's he said they would hold together if you didn't try to boost the power too much and didn't run the engine too hard like a long heavey pull on a steep grade.

403oldsman
11-10-2010, 05:04 PM
What were the problems they had with a F6l912Tt?

Not trying to prove you wrong, but...
http://memo-omega.com/Parts.aspx?Cat=Cylinder%20Heads
Early ones appear to have used the same heads.

DieselSchlepper
11-11-2010, 07:04 AM
He said they didn't hold up under laod like the regular engines. I didn't have time to go for specifics - I'll do it later.

vskidmoreii
11-16-2010, 08:55 PM
Guys,

I have some experience with the 2011 engines you talk about. Yes, they are a timing belt engine, if the belt breaks the push rods will bend and the rocker bolts will stretch. The valves do not get damaged and neither do the pistons. The engines do come with glow plugs on some models and most of come with 2 ports for spiral type manifold pre-heaters. There is a mechanical governor version (most popular) and an electronic governor (less common but run very well).

There has been some talk about amount of fuel for NA and turbo'd engines. For a complete combustion you need 40:1 air/fuel mixture. If you have a turbo'd engine, you will need an injection pump that is set up for it. I don't think it is advisable to just install a turbo on a NA engine. There are significant differences: pistons, heads, rings. The 912 engine is a pre-combustion (the mines loved them due to their clean burn) combustion chamber, the 913 and 914 are not. The reason the 912 is no longer used in new equipment is due to NOx - high exhaust temp = high NOx.

I posted this question on another post - Does anyone know of anyone installing a 1011 or 2011 engine in a Jeep CJ or a Toyota FJ??

403oldsman
11-18-2010, 05:01 AM
The 912w have a different design head with a pre-combustion chamber which is intended for lower emissions. The regular 912 does not. The primary reason the air cooled not do not pass emissions is because there isn't a good way to regulate engine temperature. In other words they put out a range of emissions.
My injection service shop informed me that the difference in pump was the turbo ones used adenoids. The primary reason was to minimize smoke until the the turbo spooled up.

Using a hand held heat temp gun, I have hotter exhaust temps on my NA 6.2 diesel than our turbo Deutz 130 06 (913).

lynn
11-18-2010, 06:41 PM
In the late 70's Wearhouser bought several 12 cylinder deutz powered log trucks for hauling logs into their mill at Longview Washington.The turbo versions put over1200 HP to the rear wheels & non turbo ones over 800 HP with insane amounts of torque. I would talk to the drivers if we were refueling at the same time & they were very impressed with the power of these engines. They all liked not having to gear down for steep grades or only drop 1 gear. They were also impressed with how reliable the engines were.

DieselSchlepper
11-19-2010, 02:28 PM
The 912w is indirect injection and the 912 is direct - no prechamber. I think you can control the temp more by a thermostatically controlled motor on the fan. That's what I'm planning on doing someday. Right now I'm working on an air baffle system cable controlled from the cab that I'll open and close based on oil temperature. It runs a lot better when hot.

castirondude
12-14-2010, 10:52 PM
Yes be very careful turbo-ing a NA engine. I wouldn't go higher than 6-8 psi without lowering the compression ratio as you said.

Lynn, The Deutz 413 series twin turbo V12's were ~ 430 HP from the factory in the late 70's, they later pumped it up to about 500 HP. The later 513 series had about the same ratings. I don't know where you get the 800/1200 HP numbers from.

BTW Several of you guys promised fuel economy numbers and I never saw any. Were they that bad? :-)

403oldsman
12-15-2010, 12:47 PM
For reference:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=4391.0

VW (1.6l) motors only use 10 bead bolts per head which is 2.5 bolts per cylinder.

The deutz 912 do have oil cooler jets.

Just something to think about.

I just finish my NV4500 swap and now I'm working on turboing the engine. Got a different exhaust manifold and made a flange to adapt it to a t3 turbo.

DieselSchlepper
12-16-2010, 06:44 AM
Guys,

I have some experience with the 2011 engines you talk about. Yes, they are a timing belt engine, if the belt breaks the push rods will bend and the rocker bolts will stretch. The valves do not get damaged and neither do the pistons. The engines do come with glow plugs on some models and most of come with 2 ports for spiral type manifold pre-heaters. There is a mechanical governor version (most popular) and an electronic governor (less common but run very well).

There has been some talk about amount of fuel for NA and turbo'd engines. For a complete combustion you need 40:1 air/fuel mixture. If you have a turbo'd engine, you will need an injection pump that is set up for it. I don't think it is advisable to just install a turbo on a NA engine. There are significant differences: pistons, heads, rings. The 912 engine is a pre-combustion (the mines loved them due to their clean burn) combustion chamber, the 913 and 914 are not. The reason the 912 is no longer used in new equipment is due to NOx - high exhaust temp = high NOx.

I posted this question on another post - Does anyone know of anyone installing a 1011 or 2011 engine in a Jeep CJ or a Toyota FJ??

There are 2 912's the 912W is indirect injection if the book is not lying. Don't know of anyone installing these engines, but Phoenix can probably help with the adaptors. I'd like to have a top HP 2011 - they only weigh about 550. I agree with you about turbos.