: 4bt in 1952 Dodge Pilothouse Truck



1952B3b23
12-18-2012, 07:37 PM
Hey Guys,

My names Chris and i just joined this forum last week and i must say i've learned a ton without asking a single question. I have a 1952 Dodge B3b half ton pickup that i am going to swap a 4bt into. I just bought this motor yesterday and i believe it to be out of generator unit, im not 100% sure on that because when i bought the motor it wasnt installed in anything. I heard it run and it ran like a champ, its a 1993 4bt3.9-C100 CPL 730. I've learned from reading various threads on here that this gen set motor has the wrong type of governor (RSV?) on the injection pump for on road use. Therefore it needs to be swapped for a suitable on road VE pump possibly? Right now it has a big bell housing on it and flywheel that i dont know how to get off. If you take a look at the pictures i had removed the bolts (theyre installed in the pic so i wouldnt lose them) that looked like they thread into the flywheel. Then i noticed that the piece with the hole that has splines in it must be preventing the assembly from coming off, but i have no idea on how to remove it? Has anyone ever seen a setup like this and know how to get it off, im stumped?

Thanks in Advance,

-Chris

mobetta
12-18-2012, 08:59 PM
That flywheel must come off, the Cummins crank pattern is very much smaller, 8 bolts.

HemiChallenger
12-18-2012, 09:13 PM
Looks like you have a VE pump already.

It appears you have some kind of direct drive hub or something bolted to the flywheel. Pull the bolts and use a slide hammer with an axle bearing tool/end and try to slide hammer it off.

I'd hillbilly it and smack it with a hammer until it gives. Probably rust-fused to the flywheel. With any hope the flywheel under it will be compatable with an automotive style clutch.

Crusty Nut
12-19-2012, 09:40 AM
Looks like you have a VE pump already.

It appears you have some kind of direct drive hub or something bolted to the flywheel. Pull the bolts and use a slide hammer with an axle bearing tool/end and try to slide hammer it off.

I'd hillbilly it and smack it with a hammer until it gives. Probably rust-fused to the flywheel. With any hope the flywheel under it will be compatable with an automotive style clutch.

I'm not sure that is a VE pump, but I agree with you on the flywheel. I would smack it a few times. I'm just taking a guess that the big flywheel with the built in spline drive is bolted to something of a flexplate which is bolted to the cummins crank. I'm sure under there somewhere is a standard cummins crank. A slide hammer in the spline area could work too, but I would start with some love taps on the outer perimeter.

enretamnotyep
12-19-2012, 10:58 AM
Sounds pretty cool, any pics of the 52?

1952B3b23
12-19-2012, 05:25 PM
I agree it has to come off some how, i'll give it some convincing with a mini sledge and see if it will pop off. Once i get that off it shouldnt be much of a deal to take the bell housing off so i can attach the rest of the transmission (once i get one).

The injection pump thats on there says Bosch on the side but it doesnt look like the VE's that ive seen on the engines out of the box trucks. I looked on the Cummins quick serve site and it says that the injection pump for this engine is a "VE (not certified)", im not sure what that means? Im going to get some numbers off the one on the motor and see what info i can find.

Attached below you'll see pics of my '52 exactly how i bought it. Ive since bought an all steel bed to replace the crappy wood flat bed that was on there. As i progressed through taking the truck apart i saw exactly how much of a hack the previous owner was, or whoever poorly tried to restore the thing. 1568115682

char1355
12-19-2012, 05:39 PM
That splined part you see in the photo is just an adapter that is bolted to the flywheel. You got to get behind that and there are 8 bolts that hold the flywheel to the crank. That has to come off before you can get the bellhousing off. There are 8 more bolts holding it to the block. I would have thought that once you remove the bolts holding the adapter to the flywheel it would turn loose with a few good taps of the hammer. Just watch your feet. I'll guarantee that thing is heavy. Don't need any black and blue toes or trips to the emergency room. Cummins is a big believer in bolts. There are about 30 that hold the oil pan on.

1952B3b23
12-19-2012, 08:51 PM
That splined part you see in the photo is just an adapter that is bolted to the flywheel. You got to get behind that and there are 8 bolts that hold the flywheel to the crank. That has to come off before you can get the bellhousing off. There are 8 more bolts holding it to the block. I would have thought that once you remove the bolts holding the adapter to the flywheel it would turn loose with a few good taps of the hammer. Just watch your feet. I'll guarantee that thing is heavy. Don't need any black and blue toes or trips to the emergency room. Cummins is a big believer in bolts. There are about 30 that hold the oil pan on.

Good news i got the splined adapter off and you're completely right, it was just bolted to the flywheel. With a few hits with a hammer i was able to rotate it and pull it right off. Then i took the flywheel off which was held on by 8 bolts attached to the crank , and boy was it heavy. I certainly wouldn't want to drop that thing on my toe, you'd here me cussing all the way down there in NC. The next step will be to take the bell housing off which looks pretty straight forward.

1952B3b23
12-19-2012, 08:58 PM
Im still trying to figure out what kind of injection pump i have. As i mentioned before the Cummins manual says its a VE (not certified) which i dont know what they mean by that. So i went out and looked at the tag on the pump and it says that its a remanufactured and has a few numbers listed along with the words "Phase II" at the bottom of the tag. Im attaching some pics of it to my post so maybe someone will tell just by looking at it.

Thanks for the help,

-Chris

15691 15692

mobetta
12-19-2012, 09:40 PM
I'd say that the not certified part means not epa certified for on road use.

I am not familiar with ve pumps.

char1355
12-20-2012, 06:00 AM
Chris, from you photos I see your engine has it's data plate on the side of the timing cover. Go to Cummins Quickserve Online and set up an account. The basic one is free. Enter your ESN (Engine Serial Number) and it will give you a complete parts list of your engine. If Cummins did a recon on it then it will show everything they did to it. You will find that site very useful.

Yeah, those flywheels are not light. Neither is that bellhousing. Cummins didn't believe in making anything light.

1952B3b23
12-20-2012, 09:40 AM
Chris, from you photos I see your engine has it's data plate on the side of the timing cover. Go to Cummins Quickserve Online and set up an account. The basic one is free. Enter your ESN (Engine Serial Number) and it will give you a complete parts list of your engine. If Cummins did a recon on it then it will show everything they did to it. You will find that site very useful.

Yeah, those flywheels are not light. Neither is that bellhousing. Cummins didn't believe in making anything light.


I actually already did setup an account on the Cummins quick serve, thats how i found out that the pump was VE (not certified). But i wasnt able to find any other info on it there about the remaned pump so im guessing Cummins didnt do it. I have found that site very helpful though, its nice to have all that info available in one place in electronic form.

That bellhousing looks heavy duty to the max, thats part of the reason why i like Cummins so much. Their products are built HD and ready to work.

-Chris

1952B3b23
12-20-2012, 09:42 AM
I'd say that the not certified part means not epa certified for on road use.

I am not familiar with ve pumps.

That seems like a good reason for it saying not certified, you're probably right.

1952B3b23
12-20-2012, 09:54 PM
So i pulled the bellhousing off and it looks like a regular old Cummins block. Im glad taking that stuff off wasnt a big deal, its surprising how well a few good hammer whacks work on some things :D

-Chris

char1355
12-21-2012, 08:27 AM
Yes, basically a 4bt is a 4bt is a 4bt. There were a few minor differences in blocks and heads but for the most part all the mountings are in the same place. Accessories from a 6bt will swap to a 4bt as longs as you have room on the block or head. Makes adapting much easier.

1952B3b23
12-21-2012, 12:41 PM
Thats such a great thing, gives you a whole lot more parts to choose from.

K204DR
12-22-2012, 07:48 AM
thats a ve pump with a different top cover that doesnt have an afc, and it also doesnt have the cold start setup on the outside. i'd find a ve top with afc and install that as youre installing a new gov spring and see how it works.

1952B3b23
12-24-2012, 10:59 AM
thats a ve pump with a different top cover that doesnt have an afc, and it also doesnt have the cold start setup on the outside. i'd find a ve top with afc and install that as youre installing a new gov spring and see how it works.

Ok thats what was throwing me off then because i thought all VE pumps had the familiar top cover, since i didnt see it i was assuming it was some different kind of pump. Im not familiar with "afc" what is it and what does it do?

As i previously mentioned this 4bt is out of an industrial application (i think a generator). Someone told me that this type of 4bt will not work in an automotive application because, "the cams are of a different grind & will not work for automotive use, as a generator is either idling or full throttle." Does anyone know if thats correct?

Thanks,

-Chris

char1355
12-25-2012, 04:59 PM
Chris, here is a link to a web site that explains all the workings of a Bosch VE type injection pump. It is very detailed and excellent info. As far as the cam being different in your engine, that may or may not be true. That in itself would not prevent it from being used in an auto application. If this is a generator engine then it was probably set up to run at idle or 1800 rpm just like you said. Doesn't mean it can't be adjusted to run higher. The peak torque on a 4bt comes on around 1600-1700 rpm. Engines like yours can operate for many thousands of hours without stressing the engine. If that were an auto application you might be able to drive it a million miles without major overhaul because the engine is operation in it's peak zone at a constant speed. That's one reason the big OTR truck engines last so long. Lots of miles at constant speed.

http://mebonty.monobasin.net/vepump.html

1952B3b23
12-25-2012, 07:10 PM
Chris, here is a link to a web site that explains all the workings of a Bosch VE type injection pump. It is very detailed and excellent info. As far as the cam being different in your engine, that may or may not be true. That in itself would not prevent it from being used in an auto application. If this is a generator engine then it was probably set up to run at idle or 1800 rpm just like you said. Doesn't mean it can't be adjusted to run higher. The peak torque on a 4bt comes on around 1600-1700 rpm. Engines like yours can operate for many thousands of hours without stressing the engine. If that were an auto application you might be able to drive it a million miles without major overhaul because the engine is operation in it's peak zone at a constant speed. That's one reason the big OTR truck engines last so long. Lots of miles at constant speed.


http://mebonty.monobasin.net/vepump.html



Thanks for the link im going to read that over! Someone also asked me "if when i heard the engine run if it shot up right to 1800 RPM or if it started off at idle and i was able to throttle it up?" The answer is that it started at idle and i was indeed able to throttle it up and let off and it returned back to idle. I was then told that since this was possible it wasnt a motor out of a genset. This seems to make sense since generators are either idle or at a set RPM point so that they produce a constant frequency of electricity. This leads me to believe that this was probably out of a different type of industrial application, maybe a Case skid steer loader or something of that nature. Any one agree or disagree?

That does make sense about the over the road truck engines, my father had a Peterbilt tri-axle tractor with over half a million miles and it was still running strong when he sold it not long ago.

char1355
12-25-2012, 08:06 PM
That link on the VE pump can help decipher you pump from the serial number. The CPL on the engine could help identify its application.

1952B3b23
12-25-2012, 09:02 PM
The problem is the injection pump on the motor is remanufactured and its data plate doesn't have the same numbering scheme as on the link. Maybe i should call up a local Cummins rep and if i give them the CPL # they will be able to tell me what application it was used for. Ive been asking Google and it doesn't seem to know either, or im just not asking nicely enough lol. :D

char1355
12-26-2012, 05:58 AM
That's probably a good course of action. With the ESN and CPL Cummins may be able to tell you who bought the engine originally. If the pump is a reman it usually has an RX at the end of a Cummins 7 digit part number. From that Cummins could tell you the Bosch part number. Have you tried a Google search on that number? Sort of like being a detective tracing an engine's history.

1952B3b23
12-26-2012, 12:21 PM
I have tried a Google search on that number and came up empty handed. But you are correct that the data plate on the side of the injection pump says remanufactured and has a 7 digit part number with an RX at the end. Im going to call up Cummins and see what they can tell me. Thanks for the advice.

1952B3b23
12-26-2012, 12:37 PM
I called up Cummins and gave them the ESN and CPL numbers and they told me the injection pump is a VE type and that the motor was out of some construction application not a generator. So im thinking this is good news for me.

1952B3b23
12-27-2012, 08:31 PM
Another question i have is what would you guys recommend for a front suspension setup? I still have the stock front suspension on the truck which is a manual steering box, straight axle, leaf springs, shocks, and drum brakes. Im pretty sure that the straight axle will take the added weight of the 4bt but im not sure about the spindles, bearings, etc. I also know that they make a disk brake conversion kit to get rid of the drums but im not sure this would be enough to make it safe. Also im guessing that it will probably handle even worse considering it didnt handle well with the original flathead 6. Then again i know its a truck and is going to handle like one but my main concern is the safety of this thing. Ive done some searching around on the Suspension threads on here and have found that some guys say dont use IFS and others have used it without problems. I called Fatman Fabrications which specializes in IFS and told them what i was doing and they seemed to think that an IFS kit setup to handle a big block chevy would work fine. I dont know if theyre correct or just trying to sell there product. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-Chris

ky-donzi
12-27-2012, 10:25 PM
Maybe look at some 1960's International trucks or scouts a lot of them had solid front axles in 2wd applications, you could swap in one of them cheap.... Would be heavier duty....I'm not sure what look your going for, but you could probably swap in a 4x4 front axle and due a 4x4 conversion at the same time if you had the interest.

1952B3b23
12-28-2012, 05:56 PM
I think im going to stick with my original beam front axle and leaf spring setup. I will do a disc brake conversion that is available for the dodge truck front axles and have a leaf added to my springs and better shocks. Also replace the tie rod ends and such, so basically rebuild the whole front end. Its definitely going to handle like a truck without the IFS but thats not a big deal to me, i just want this thing to be safe. Im sticking with 2WD cause im never going to drive this thing in the snow or take it off road.

Goat
12-28-2012, 06:32 PM
Post the numbers found on your pump and I will look it up in the VE pump book I have. Have you checked if you motor has balance shafts, CPL 0730 is one of the few that I know of which was equipped with balance shafts.

char1355
12-28-2012, 06:55 PM
Nothing wrong with a truck handling like a truck. Probably will need to beef up the springs a tad. From what I have read the 230 I6 that came in that truck weighed about 300 lbs. The Cummins will be about 500 lbs heavier.

1952B3b23
12-29-2012, 10:34 AM
Nothing wrong with a truck handling like a truck. Probably will need to beef up the springs a tad. From what I have read the 230 I6 that came in that truck weighed about 300 lbs. The Cummins will be about 500 lbs heavier.

Nope not at all, it will ride just like it did in 1952. I plan on having the springs refurbished and a leaf (maybe two) added to each spring pack. Ive actually heard that the flathead 6 with bellhousing weighs approx. 600 lbs.

Tim Keith
12-30-2012, 08:12 PM
Nope not at all, it will ride just like it did in 1952. I plan on having the springs refurbished and a leaf (maybe two) added to each spring pack. Ive actually heard that the flathead 6 with bellhousing weighs approx. 600 lbs.

600 pounds is about right for a 218 - with all accessories.

1952B3b23
12-30-2012, 08:46 PM
600 pounds is about right for a 218 - with all accessories.

Yea the 218 is what came in those B3b 1/2 tons.

1952B3b23
12-30-2012, 08:58 PM
Post the numbers found on your pump and I will look it up in the VE pump book I have. Have you checked if you motor has balance shafts, CPL 0730 is one of the few that I know of which was equipped with balance shafts.

Heres the info on my injection pump data plate, its a remanufactured pump:

3908183RX
M03309330B
Phase II

I know that it is a VE type pump but it doesnt have the familiar "cover", where the fuel pin is under. I dont know what the name for that thing is thats why im calling it a "cover". The other VE pumps ive seen on the 4bts and on the 89-93 6bts have it, im wondering if i am going to need this. If so do i need to buy a new injection pump or can i outfit the one i have with it?

I have not checked to see if the motor has balanced shafts, to be honest i didn't even know i was suppose to check that. This may or may not be a dumb question but... Is it good or bad that it has balanced shafts?

Thanks for the help!

-Chris

Goat
12-30-2012, 10:01 PM
Heres the info on my injection pump data plate, its a remanufactured pump:

3908183RX
M03309330B
Phase II

I know that it is a VE type pump but it doesnt have the familiar "cover", where the fuel pin is under. I dont know what the name for that thing is thats why im calling it a "cover". The other VE pumps ive seen on the 4bts and on the 89-93 6bts have it, im wondering if i am going to need this. If so do i need to buy a new injection pump or can i outfit the one i have with it?

I have not checked to see if the motor has balanced shafts, to be honest i didn't even know i was suppose to check that. This may or may not be a dumb question but... Is it good or bad that it has balanced shafts?

Thanks for the help!

-Chris

Early B series engines were subject to surging at low speed operation. This condition was most prominent in equipment such as forklifts, mobile cranes and other applications fitted with torque converters to facilitate a creeping operation. Surge was also noticable in automotive applications using torque converters. The surging was attributed to unbalanced residual pressure in the high pressure lines. Subsequently, the pumps were redesigned to incorporate bypass delivery valves that have a provision to drain residual pressure after injection so the pressure in the lines are always balanced for start of injection.

Pumps built with bypass delivery vavles during production are referred to as Phase II pumps. The earlier pump are Phase I. Phase II pumps have different part numbers. Some superseding Phase II pumps require different injectors and a subsequent CPL change.

3908183 is a Phase II pump for CPL 730, it's rated at 100HP @ 2500 rpm. Timing is 1.80mm. It should be paired with injectors 3909476.

Yes the pump you have is not equipped with an aneroid compensator. You can install one if you want to...their purpose is to correct for changing atmospheric pressure (altitude) keeping emissions & soot down.

Balance shafts make the motor incredibly smooth...almost no vibration. However, the con to them is that you are limited to about 2300 rpm.

1952B3b23
12-31-2012, 10:20 AM
Early B series engines were subject to surging at low speed operation. This condition was most prominent in equipment such as forklifts, mobile cranes and other applications fitted with torque converters to facilitate a creeping operation. Surge was also noticable in automotive applications using torque converters. The surging was attributed to unbalanced residual pressure in the high pressure lines. Subsequently, the pumps were redesigned to incorporate bypass delivery valves that have a provision to drain residual pressure after injection so the pressure in the lines are always balanced for start of injection.

Pumps built with bypass delivery vavles during production are referred to as Phase II pumps. The earlier pump are Phase I. Phase II pumps have different part numbers. Some superseding Phase II pumps require different injectors and a subsequent CPL change.

3908183 is a Phase II pump for CPL 730, it's rated at 100HP @ 2500 rpm. Timing is 1.80mm. It should be paired with injectors 3909476.

Yes the pump you have is not equipped with an aneroid compensator. You can install one if you want to...their purpose is to correct for changing atmospheric pressure (altitude) keeping emissions & soot down.

Balance shafts make the motor incredibly smooth...almost no vibration. However, the con to them is that you are limited to about 2300 rpm.

Thanks for clearing that all up for me! I dont really plan on driving the truck at higher altitudes where the atmospheric pressure would be significantly lower, so i may just leave the aneroid compensator off. Do you know of any way of turning this type of pump up? I know that on the conventional VE style pumps you can rotate the fuel pin (or get an aftermarket one) and put the 3200 rpm governor spring in it. Do any of those mods apply here or do they require the pump to have the aneroid compensator? Im thinking if i could turn up the injection pump then i could run a little bit bigger injectors and get more power out of the motor.

Is there a way to know for certain if the motor has balanced shafts or is it as simple as if its a CPL 730 then it has balanced shafts?

Thanks again,

-Chris

Goat
12-31-2012, 12:41 PM
Do you know of any way of turning this type of pump up? Im thinking if i could turn up the injection pump then i could run a little bit bigger injectors and get more power out of the motor.

Is there a way to know for certain if the motor has balanced shafts or is it as simple as if its a CPL 730 then it has balanced shafts?


It's the same as all other VE pumps, you just don't mess with the AFC settings as you don't have it. To find out if you have balance shafts, drop the oil pan. You will see the assembly bolted to the main caps. There will be two large shafts the length of the crank, which are driven via a gear off the snout of the crankshaft. Or just post pics and we can tell you.

1952B3b23
12-31-2012, 01:16 PM
It's the same as all other VE pumps, you just don't mess with the AFC settings as you don't have it. To find out if you have balance shafts, drop the oil pan. You will see the assembly bolted to the main caps. There will be two large shafts the length of the crank, which are driven via a gear off the snout of the crankshaft. Or just post pics and we can tell you.

Ohh okay that makes sense about the pump. I actually just ordered a new oil pan so i will be dropping it soon and will be able to check on the balanced shafts, I'll take some pics while i have it down.

char1355
12-31-2012, 07:21 PM
If your engine is equiped with the balance shaft assembly you will need to remove that for a street engine. Much above 2000 rpm that thing will self destruct. It was designed for a constant speed engine like generators, pumps, etc. Also those units are extremely expensive. If you can find a buyer you may recover a lot of your cost. In the last 5 yrs I don't think I've seen more than 2 or 3 of those for sale.

1952B3b23
01-01-2013, 12:08 PM
If your engine is equiped with the balance shaft assembly you will need to remove that for a street engine. Much above 2000 rpm that thing will self destruct. It was designed for a constant speed engine like generators, pumps, etc. Also those units are extremely expensive. If you can find a buyer you may recover a lot of your cost. In the last 5 yrs I don't think I've seen more than 2 or 3 of those for sale.

Im hoping that it doesnt have balanced shafts then, they seem to be pretty rare. Also what i paid for this engine was in the ball park of others i had seen for sale on ebay and craigslist, unless the seller didnt know what he had. I also know that the motor was from a construction application not a generator or pump. I may go drop the pan later today just cause it will have to come off anyway for the new one.

-Chris

char1355
01-01-2013, 02:10 PM
Chris, here is a photo of one of the balancer assemblies. If you do have it and remove it you will need 4 main cap bolts. If it's not there then you just change the oil pan and pickup.

1952B3b23
01-01-2013, 02:56 PM
Chris, here is a photo of one of the balancer assemblies. If you do have it and remove it you will need 4 main cap bolts. If it's not there then you just change the oil pan and pickup.

Thanks a lot for the pic. I just went out to the shop and dropped the oil pan and i do not have the balanced shaft assembly. I ordered a new rear sump oil pan and pick up tube the other day. I already have the pick up tube but im waiting for the pan to come in, so once that happens it will be looking more like an automotive 4bt.

By the way i just tried attaching a pic of what it looks like and it wont let me upload, it says ive exceeded my quota. I didnt know there was a limit on how many photos you can upload?

-Chris

1952B3b23
01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
Chris, here is a photo of one of the balancer assemblies. If you do have it and remove it you will need 4 main cap bolts. If it's not there then you just change the oil pan and pickup.

Do you think you could post up the part number on the oil pick up tube? I want to make sure the one i bought is correct for an automotive styled oil pan. The part number on the pick up tube i bought is 3920795.

Thanks,

-Chris

95 wrangler, 05 cummins
01-02-2013, 04:23 PM
By the way i just tried attaching a pic of what it looks like and it wont let me upload, it says ive exceeded my quota. I didnt know there was a limit on how many photos you can upload?

-Chris

I'm still a new poster but have been lurking quite a while. I believe there is a cap on how many pictures you can post, unless you buy a star (unless that changed..?). There may be a way around it such as using a hyperlink from another file host like photobucket, but I'm not sure.

1952B3b23
01-02-2013, 06:35 PM
I'm still a new poster but have been lurking quite a while. I believe there is a cap on how many pictures you can post, unless you buy a star (unless that changed..?). There may be a way around it such as using a hyperlink from another file host like photobucket, but I'm not sure.

Ohh okay thats what its all about. Does anyone know how much one of these stars costs?

jcillch
01-02-2013, 08:59 PM
nice build got a 4 in my 40, goes like stink

1952B3b23
01-03-2013, 11:41 AM
nice build got a 4 in my 40, goes like stink

Thats awesome! Do you have any pictures?

char1355
01-04-2013, 07:14 PM
Do you think you could post up the part number on the oil pick up tube? I want to make sure the one i bought is correct for an automotive styled oil pan. The part number on the pick up tube i bought is 3920795.

Thanks,

-Chris

Chris, I'm pretty sure that is the froht sump pickup. One part # for the rear pickup is 3905206. There can be others. Cummins is constantly updating part numbers. Case tractors has the part as J905206. The oil pans are reverable so it doen't matter.

1952B3b23
01-09-2013, 11:48 AM
Chris, I'm pretty sure that is the froht sump pickup. One part # for the rear pickup is 3905206. There can be others. Cummins is constantly updating part numbers. Case tractors has the part as J905206. The oil pans are reverable so it doen't matter.

I just got the oil pan in yesterday and have been so busy with work i havent had time to put it in but according to the Cummins QuickServe site i got the right pickup tube. Thanks for the help.

-Chris

char1355
01-09-2013, 06:10 PM
Chris, I have a Cummins 4bt parts manual that has 3 different oil pan and 3 pickups. The pickup number you listed is definitely the front one. Better ask Cummins how they figure it is rear sump. I suspect they are looking at the orininal specs on the engine and not what you want it to be. You'll find out real quick if it's the right one when you install it. Hope you're right.

1952B3b23
01-10-2013, 01:30 PM
Chris, I have a Cummins 4bt parts manual that has 3 different oil pan and 3 pickups. The pickup number you listed is definitely the front one. Better ask Cummins how they figure it is rear sump. I suspect they are looking at the orininal specs on the engine and not what you want it to be. You'll find out real quick if it's the right one when you install it. Hope you're right.

Im crossing my fingers and hoping i am right, but im thinking you are and im not. I have to be really careful when i install the pickup tube because if its not the right one i need to be able to return it. Cummins made it pretty clear to me that if it has any signs of ever being installed they wont take it back.

-Chris

char1355
01-10-2013, 05:26 PM
If you place it in it's location and only run the bolts down with your fingers, then set the pan off to the side of the engine. You will be able to see real quick it the pickup is in the sump or not. Shouldn't leave any damaging marks that way. Heck, if you just hand hold it in place you'll quickly see if it's correct or not. Don't even need to put any bolt in it at all. Might need an extra pair of hands to hold the oil pan.

1952B3b23
01-12-2013, 05:47 PM
If you place it in it's location and only run the bolts down with your fingers, then set the pan off to the side of the engine. You will be able to see real quick it the pickup is in the sump or not. Shouldn't leave any damaging marks that way. Heck, if you just hand hold it in place you'll quickly see if it's correct or not. Don't even need to put any bolt in it at all. Might need an extra pair of hands to hold the oil pan.

Well i tried it out today and its the wrong oil pickup tube, its definitely for a front sump application. All i did was hold it up next to the engine and saw right away that there was no way it was going to work. So im going to return that one to Cummins and get the rear sump oil pick up tube, does any one have a picture of one of these they could post up?

Thanks

char1355
01-13-2013, 08:05 AM
Chris, here's a picture from Case tractors showing the complete oil pan system.

1952B3b23
01-13-2013, 11:40 AM
Thank you. I am going to go to the Cummins dealer one of these days and return the wrong pick up tube and hopefully return with the right one. I'll keep you guys posted as i make some progress.

char1355
01-13-2013, 06:03 PM
I'm pretty sure the correct number is the 3905206. The Case part # in the drawing is J905206. Don't know what Cummins charges for it but the Case part is around $60.

1952B3b23
01-14-2013, 06:33 AM
I'm pretty sure the correct number is the 3905206. The Case part # in the drawing is J905206. Don't know what Cummins charges for it but the Case part is around $60.

Yea i did some more research on here and it looks like that is the correct number for the rear sump. The wrong oil pick up tube that i got cost around $80-$90 (cant remember exactly), so im assuming the 3905206 version will be around the same.

Thanks for the help

char1355
01-14-2013, 07:26 PM
If you need Cummins parts you may want to check a Case tractor dealer. Same exact parts. If the Cummins part # has a 3 in front just change it to a J and you have the Case part #. Look at the site for Coleman Equipment Co. They are a major Case parts dealer. I've bought from them many times and generally they beat Cummins on the same part. For the 4bt look at a Case 580 Super K backhoe. It has that engine. Several of the Case skid steers use it as well. He's a link for you.

http://www.colemanequip.com/Case-580-Super-K-580SK-Loader-Backhoes-Parts/Engine-4l/OIL-PUMP-AND-OIL-PAN-4-390-ENGINE-4T-390-ENGINE-ENGINE-0qvJ/?#partdiagrams

1952B3b23
01-15-2013, 11:43 AM
If you need Cummins parts you may want to check a Case tractor dealer. Same exact parts. If the Cummins part # has a 3 in front just change it to a J and you have the Case part #. Look at the site for Coleman Equipment Co. They are a major Case parts dealer. I've bought from them many times and generally they beat Cummins on the same part. For the 4bt look at a Case 580 Super K backhoe. It has that engine. Several of the Case skid steers use it as well. He's a link for you.

http://www.colemanequip.com/Case-580-Super-K-580SK-Loader-Backhoes-Parts/Engine-4l/OIL-PUMP-AND-OIL-PAN-4-390-ENGINE-4T-390-ENGINE-ENGINE-0qvJ/?#partdiagrams

Thanks a lot for pointing it out, there prices seem to be much more reasonable than straight from Cummins. When i was looking for an oil pan i called Cummins and they wanted about $280 for one, i ended up getting a brand new one off ebay for $125 plus shipping. I had no idea about the interchange of part numbers like that, thats a really handy thing to know. Once again thanks for all your help

1952B3b23
01-15-2013, 12:02 PM
I just called up Cummins and they want $87.56 for the new oil pick up tube, and $20 to have it shipped overnight from the distribution warehouse in Memphis. If im willing to wait 7-10 days they will ship at no charge. Coleman Equipment wants $69 for the tube and its about $10 for standard shipping, so i will still be able to save a few bucks.

char1355
01-16-2013, 07:55 PM
Must remember that Case was involved in the design of the 4bt. They had them in tractors long before they were ever in road vehicles.

1952B3b23
01-20-2013, 03:12 PM
Must remember that Case was involved in the design of the 4bt. They had them in tractors long before they were ever in road vehicles.

Hmmm i didn't know that Case was involved in the design, good to know. By the way i order the new oil pick up tube from Coleman Equipment and unfortunately its on back order so it will probably be an extra week before i get it.

I cant wait until i can put the motor into my '52, im still a ways away cause i have to rebuild the front suspension first and get the $ and parts to do that.

-Chris

1952B3b23
01-21-2013, 05:12 PM
So i did some searching on here about exhaust manifolds and im still confused. The issue im having is that my manifold is a turbo high mount config and i want to run the low mount. The problem is that this creates interference between the vertical oil filter and turbo. The reason i cant run a high mount is because then my hood wont close when installed in the truck. Does anyone know of a low mount manifold that wont interfere with my oil filter, or would this have to be custom made?

Thanks,

-Chris

Goat
01-21-2013, 06:24 PM
The low mount manifold is commonly paired with a horizontal oil filter adapter plate. You'd have to get the adapter or go remote mount. Another option is to use a cut down 6bt manifold.

char1355
01-21-2013, 09:13 PM
With the high center manifold in the down position you just about have to use a remote oil filter set up. Another option is go with the rear low mount manifold and horizontal oil filter. That is probably the most common set up found on 4bt's. The main issue with that one is firewall clearance for the exhaust on some vehicles. Another option is the cut down 6bt manifold. Here's a picture of the low rear set up.

1952B3b23
01-22-2013, 07:04 AM
I have heard of people going with the remote oil filter setup but i dont know how much that costs, is it less expensive than getting a horizontal oil filter setup? I do have a '92 D250 with a 12v Cummins thats going to donate its Getrag G360 5 speed manual for this swap, so i could take the exhaust manifold off that and cut it down. Im assuming that would be the least expensive option. My only question is how do you weld the manifold back up? Can it be done with a MIG welder cause thats all i have.

Thanks for the help "Goat" and "Char1355"

-Chris

1952B3b23
01-22-2013, 01:01 PM
So i found an oil filter relocation kit on the website linked below, it costs $209:

http://www.puredieselpower.com/catalog/pacbrake-3959l-cummins-diesel-universal-remote-oil-filter-relocation-kit-p-25665.html?osCsid=3b710a5aa0338a8b4e4f27fb02444e15

Im wondering how this price compares to a horizontal oil filter setup.

Truckman
01-22-2013, 03:00 PM
Many of us have had the turbo location issue. I used a cut/welded 6bt manifold, which is also flipped upside down. I now have a vertical oil filter installed, and no clearance problems.
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/catrucker/Ram%20Cummins/P1020759.jpg

1952B3b23
01-22-2013, 06:44 PM
Many of us have had the turbo location issue. I used a cut/welded 6bt manifold, which is also flipped upside down. I now have a vertical oil filter installed, and no clearance problems.
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/catrucker/Ram%20Cummins/P1020759.jpg

So it sounds like modifying the 6bt manifold off of my 92 cummins is the probably going to be the least expensive way to go. How did you weld the manifold? Im assuming it was cast iron, did you have to use a stick welder with special rod?

1952B3b23
01-27-2013, 07:31 PM
I got the rear sump oil pick up tube and pan installed today, everything fit nicely. What torque should i tighten the oil pan bolts to?

Thanks,

-Chris

Truckman
01-27-2013, 09:26 PM
So it sounds like modifying the 6bt manifold off of my 92 cummins is the probably going to be the least expensive way to go. How did you weld the manifold? Im assuming it was cast iron, did you have to use a stick welder with special rod?

I had a professional welder do mine for $100.

Goat
01-28-2013, 11:56 AM
What torque should i tighten the oil pan bolts to?

24 N-m or 18 ft-lbs.

1952B3b23
01-28-2013, 12:01 PM
I had a professional welder do mine for $100.

That sounds pretty reasonable, i'll most likely go that route.

Thanks,

-Chris

1952B3b23
01-28-2013, 12:02 PM
24 N-m or 18 ft-lbs.

Thanks, much appreciated.

JimmieD
01-30-2013, 07:45 PM
Regarding your suspension and brakes, I'd hold off on installing IFS and sics. There were both front and rear anti-sway bars used on Dodge trucks, some measuring will tell you what fits. Most likely anything from say '77 on back for a 1/2 or 3/4 ton will be real close to fitting. The early frame on yours is just a bit narrower than the '58-'71 trucks, but not that much and all of them were a straight axle. Axles are very close to the same I think, except for distance on spring pads, not sure on track width of wheel spacing. Swaybars are cheap at a dismantlers. Front & rear swaybars can make a huge difference in handling when teamed up with some hefty springs and top-notch shocks, probably no complaints.

Check on the front wheel bearings for your truck and I think you'll find they may be the same measurements as many later trucks. At least from '58 to maybe mid to late '70 they should be the same as I recall. They should be the same as 3/4 ton trucks. That means you can most likely fit some 11" x 2 1/2" front drums which give real good braking with quality shoes. For the rear I'd imagine you'll install a D60 to handle the Cummins torque which I doubt your current axle can deal with. If so you get some big rear brakes and 3 widths were available for D60's.

Combo of larger brakes, swaybars, HD shocks, stout springs should keep you real happy with the right tires added. My '67 Dodge has manual drums and swaybars and is way more top heavy than yours but the handling and stopping are just fine! I also did a custom Air Lift front air bags install recently and it really helped the front suspension.

1952B3b23
02-01-2013, 09:50 AM
Regarding your suspension and brakes, I'd hold off on installing IFS and sics. There were both front and rear anti-sway bars used on Dodge trucks, some measuring will tell you what fits. Most likely anything from say '77 on back for a 1/2 or 3/4 ton will be real close to fitting. The early frame on yours is just a bit narrower than the '58-'71 trucks, but not that much and all of them were a straight axle. Axles are very close to the same I think, except for distance on spring pads, not sure on track width of wheel spacing. Swaybars are cheap at a dismantlers. Front & rear swaybars can make a huge difference in handling when teamed up with some hefty springs and top-notch shocks, probably no complaints.

Check on the front wheel bearings for your truck and I think you'll find they may be the same measurements as many later trucks. At least from '58 to maybe mid to late '70 they should be the same as I recall. They should be the same as 3/4 ton trucks. That means you can most likely fit some 11" x 2 1/2" front drums which give real good braking with quality shoes. For the rear I'd imagine you'll install a D60 to handle the Cummins torque which I doubt your current axle can deal with. If so you get some big rear brakes and 3 widths were available for D60's.

Combo of larger brakes, swaybars, HD shocks, stout springs should keep you real happy with the right tires added. My '67 Dodge has manual drums and swaybars and is way more top heavy than yours but the handling and stopping are just fine! I also did a custom Air Lift front air bags install recently and it really helped the front suspension.

Thanks a lot for the good info. I have actually changed my mind and am not going to install IFS, i plan on keeping the original straight axle setup. I just had an outfit in St. Louis make me a new set of front leaf springs with 8 leaves instead of 7 that came on the half tons, and the front axle has a weight rating of 3,500 lbs. The 8 leaves where original equipment for the 3/4 ton version of my truck. I plan on installing a disc brake conversion kit that is made for the old Mopars and it uses 11" rotors, this will greatly improve the stopping over my 60 yr old drums. At this point im still going with manual steering, do you have power steering on yours? My big thing is that i want it to be safe, im not to concerned with having excellent handling which it wont with the straight axle set up. It'll drive like a truck and thats cool with me, gives it a bouncy nostalgic feel :D

As for the rear axle i'll look into the D60 cause the original will not take the torque. What do the jeep guys use? I know that guys put jeep rear axles into these old pilothouse trucks all the time and they're a great fit and give them updated drums or discs in the rear. I just dont know if they will take the torque? I dont really know much about jeeps so any help with that would be great.

Could you post up some pics of your rig sounds like a really cool truck.

Thanks again,

-Chris

ky-donzi
02-01-2013, 11:59 AM
I used the PACbrake filter system on mine...bought what I paid..super quality parts...
Put the filter in the pass wheel well.... Just my 2cents... But well worth it... When you start moving and jumbling stuff around its one less item I have to work around

Btw if you go with welding the manifold use a hi alloy 460 nickel rod...pre n post heat.. Bury in sand to slow the cooling after you have stick welded it

1952B3b23
02-01-2013, 12:34 PM
I used the PACbrake filter system on mine...bought what I paid..super quality parts...
Put the filter in the pass wheel well.... Just my 2cents... But well worth it... When you start moving and jumbling stuff around its one less item I have to work around

Btw if you go with welding the manifold use a hi alloy 460 nickel rod...pre n post heat.. Bury in sand to slow the cooling after you have stick welded it

I just looked for the "PAC brake filter system" on google and couldnt find it, could you post a link?

Im going to have some body who actually knows what they are doing weld the manifold, i know if i try ill mess it up cause i havent stick welded in ages (only MIG now) and never welded an exhaust manifold. Thanks for the input though.

-Chris

ky-donzi
02-01-2013, 02:56 PM
http://www.pacbrake.com/PDF/L5637.PDF

really installed nicely... looks good too

1952B3b23
02-01-2013, 06:44 PM
http://www.pacbrake.com/PDF/L5637.PDF

really installed nicely... looks good too

Thanks, looks like a real high quality system. If you dont mind me asking, how much did you pay?

ky-donzi
02-01-2013, 10:57 PM
http://www.dkdiesel.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=Oil+filter+pacbrake

Best price I could find $190.00

1952B3b23
02-02-2013, 11:28 AM
http://www.dkdiesel.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=Oil+filter+pacbrake

Best price I could find $190.00

Thanks for the link. Did you use the kit for the first gen 12 valves? My 4bt is from 1993 so im assuming if i got the first gen kit id be all set.

mobetta
02-02-2013, 11:31 PM
any one will fit. the dodge one has a bracket to mount on the frame, the Univ. one has different fittings than pictured. I used the Univ., had to buy a 90* vs a str fitting.

1952B3b23
02-03-2013, 09:45 AM
any one will fit. the dodge one has a bracket to mount on the frame, the Univ. one has different fittings than pictured. I used the Univ., had to buy a 90* vs a str fitting.

Ohh okay good to know thanks.

1952B3b23
02-04-2013, 12:16 PM
So im in the process of rebuilding my front suspension on the '52 so i can get everything sitting right before mocking up how the motors going to be mounted. This has got me thinking about the rear axle/suspension, im going to stick with the leaf spring setup in the rear. I know that my original axle that came with the truck will not take the torque, plus the gearing is low 4.10. Its pretty common for people that own these old pilothouse trucks to swap out the rear axle for an updated jeep rear axle, id like to do something along those lines. I know those jeep rear axles are a good fit but i dont know if they will take the torque either? I know very little about jeeps and im wondering what the 4bt jeep folks have done? Ive done some research on the jeep rear axle but cant seem to find a max torque rating for them. This truck is not going to be an off road vehicle just a cruiser for the weekends and after work, so id like to get a good ratio that will allow me to cruise at 65 mph at a reasonable rpm for the 4bt. Also i plan on using a Getrag G360 5 speed manual trans.

Thanks in advance,

-Chris

nowhereman
02-26-2013, 04:47 PM
nice goin' chris. the old pilot houses are cool trucks

littlebroncokid
02-26-2013, 05:40 PM
So it sounds like modifying the 6bt manifold off of my 92 cummins is the probably going to be the least expensive way to go. How did you weld the manifold? Im assuming it was cast iron, did you have to use a stick welder with special rod?

you can weld cast iron with a mig welder you just have to preheat the cast to a light glow then weld it just let it cool slowly when done. this is how i did mine had a budy heat and i welded it. mine works fine. this is way we did it around the farm

1952B3b23
02-26-2013, 06:37 PM
nice goin' chris. the old pilot houses are cool trucks

Thanks a lot. Yea they are very cold old rides, i like them a lot cause they are more rare than the Chevy and Ford counterparts.

1952B3b23
02-26-2013, 06:39 PM
you can weld cast iron with a mig welder you just have to preheat the cast to a light glow then weld it just let it cool slowly when done. this is how i did mine had a budy heat and i welded it. mine works fine. this is way we did it around the farm

I didnt know you could use a mig. I had heard about the part of having to cool it slowly or else the welds will crack. Thanks for the info.

JimmieD
02-26-2013, 08:17 PM
Thanks a lot for the good info. I have actually changed my mind and am not going to install IFS, i plan on keeping the original straight axle setup. I just had an outfit in St. Louis make me a new set of front leaf springs with 8 leaves instead of 7 that came on the half tons, and the front axle has a weight rating of 3,500 lbs. The 8 leaves where original equipment for the 3/4 ton version of my truck. I plan on installing a disc brake conversion kit that is made for the old Mopars and it uses 11" rotors, this will greatly improve the stopping over my 60 yr old drums. At this point im still going with manual steering, do you have power steering on yours? My big thing is that i want it to be safe, im not to concerned with having excellent handling which it wont with the straight axle set up. It'll drive like a truck and thats cool with me, gives it a bouncy nostalgic feel :D

As for the rear axle i'll look into the D60 cause the original will not take the torque. What do the jeep guys use? I know that guys put jeep rear axles into these old pilothouse trucks all the time and they're a great fit and give them updated drums or discs in the rear. I just dont know if they will take the torque? I dont really know much about jeeps so any help with that would be great.

Could you post up some pics of your rig sounds like a really cool truck.

Thanks again,

-Chris

Hi, Chris,

Sorry, didn't see this post with your questions. As for pics of my truck, none on this forum that I know of, could never work out the picture posting & priviledges thing even after all these years.

On the 'Truck Suspension' you may be very pleasantly surprised if you get it set up right. It's a well kept secret except to the few guys that own and have properly set up an old Dodge truck for handling, instead of for hauling or 4 wheeling or towing. I live in a very mountainous area with extremely tight, twisty, narrow, poorly crowned roads. I've sent more than a few hotshots off in the weeds who first wanted to tailgate to "...get that old piece of junk truck to pull over..." One just today, matter of fact! After I had some fun with him he dropped back about a quarter of a mile...

If you stay close to stock ride height and use some good quality, sticky and wide tires, add both front and rear anti-swaybars, premium coil-over gas shocks, fresh suspension bushings and spring eye bushings, good tight spring shakles, good tight tie-rod ends, good tight steering arm it will be more than good. Next step is front and rear Panhard rods to get into the downright amazing category, or Z bars. If it suits your design viewpoints a slight lowering helps but it's not necessary at all. Mine's top heavy, being a wagon, and a pickup style like yours will handle even better.

Power steering is a future possibility for me but right now it's too complicated to get into, other stuff ahead of that for upgrade$. You can fit up to 12" x 2-1/2" front drums and with premium shoes they'll give you some excellent brakes if the rears are matched, sometimes using a proportioning valve to balance braking. Beyond that there's some ultra-premium semi-metallic shoes that are phenomenal for stopping.

On the rearend, it's actually a somewhat complicated equation. It depends on driving style, total vehicle/load weight, usage and road conditions. I sure don't think a D60HD is a necessity but it was for my needs, simple enough. Helped that I already had one and knew it was in great shape.

1952B3b23
02-27-2013, 07:33 PM
Hi, Chris,

Sorry, didn't see this post with your questions. As for pics of my truck, none on this forum that I know of, could never work out the picture posting & priviledges thing even after all these years.

On the 'Truck Suspension' you may be very pleasantly surprised if you get it set up right. It's a well kept secret except to the few guys that own and have properly set up an old Dodge truck for handling, instead of for hauling or 4 wheeling or towing. I live in a very mountainous area with extremely tight, twisty, narrow, poorly crowned roads. I've sent more than a few hotshots off in the weeds who first wanted to tailgate to "...get that old piece of junk truck to pull over..." One just today, matter of fact! After I had some fun with him he dropped back about a quarter of a mile...

If you stay close to stock ride height and use some good quality, sticky and wide tires, add both front and rear anti-swaybars, premium coil-over gas shocks, fresh suspension bushings and spring eye bushings, good tight spring shakles, good tight tie-rod ends, good tight steering arm it will be more than good. Next step is front and rear Panhard rods to get into the downright amazing category, or Z bars. If it suits your design viewpoints a slight lowering helps but it's not necessary at all. Mine's top heavy, being a wagon, and a pickup style like yours will handle even better.

Power steering is a future possibility for me but right now it's too complicated to get into, other stuff ahead of that for upgrade$. You can fit up to 12" x 2-1/2" front drums and with premium shoes they'll give you some excellent brakes if the rears are matched, sometimes using a proportioning valve to balance braking. Beyond that there's some ultra-premium semi-metallic shoes that are phenomenal for stopping.

On the rearend, it's actually a somewhat complicated equation. It depends on driving style, total vehicle/load weight, usage and road conditions. I sure don't think a D60HD is a necessity but it was for my needs, simple enough. Helped that I already had one and knew it was in great shape.

Sounds like youre pretty good at shacking those tailgaters lol.... I do plan on keeping the stock ride height, its going to have its own slight rake due to the added weight of the 4bt but i think it will make it look cool. The front suspension will be completely refurbished with new parts like you mentioned. I also plan on adding a front disc brake conversion that uses 11" rotors for added stopping power. The only thing i still have questions on is your mention of the anti-sway bars, how would i be able to outfit one to a stock front straight axle setup? By what you are saying it seems like a refurbed front suspension setup for my project will give me good results, this is great re-assurance for me. Some one else here on the forum suggested an 8 3/4" rear end out of a Chrysler c-body, what do you think? They look stout enough to handle the torque of the 4bt and they are pretty close to the original width of what was on the truck. My plans for the truck is basically as a after work and weekend driver, im not going to haul anything with it or tow, thats what my '03 Cummins is for. Nor am i looking for superb handling i just want the thing to be reasonably easy to drive and most of all safe on the road. All the roads in my area are decently wide and paved but they all have there fair share of "moon craters" every so often. Thanks for the help.

-Chris

JimmieD
02-27-2013, 10:02 PM
Sounds like youre pretty good at shacking those tailgaters lol.... I do plan on keeping the stock ride height, its going to have its own slight rake due to the added weight of the 4bt but i think it will make it look cool. The front suspension will be completely refurbished with new parts like you mentioned. I also plan on adding a front disc brake conversion that uses 11" rotors for added stopping power. The only thing i still have questions on is your mention of the anti-sway bars, how would i be able to outfit one to a stock front straight axle setup? By what you are saying it seems like a refurbed front suspension setup for my project will give me good results, this is great re-assurance for me. Some one else here on the forum suggested an 8 3/4" rear end out of a Chrysler c-body, what do you think? They look stout enough to handle the torque of the 4bt and they are pretty close to the original width of what was on the truck. My plans for the truck is basically as a after work and weekend driver, im not going to haul anything with it or tow, thats what my '03 Cummins is for. Nor am i looking for superb handling i just want the thing to be reasonably easy to drive and most of all safe on the road. All the roads in my area are decently wide and paved but they all have there fair share of "moon craters" every so often. Thanks for the help.

-Chris

Both front and rear antisway bars were commonly used on all kinds of Dodge trucks for many years, from the 50's and throughout the 60's into the 70's, also very common on vans. Just get out to the Dismantler's with tape measure in hand. Doesn't have to be a Dodge bar either, they're pretty much universal if you can make the clamps or attachments work.

8-3/4 axles were used on Mopars of every type all through the late 50', 60's and 70's. That includes all the Hemi Mopars. It was the standard light duty truck axle and should be very close to your width, within 1-1/2". All were 5 on 4-1/2" bolt pattern, no 8 lugs. You may have to relocate the spring pads which is no biggy, replacement pads commonly available. On the rear axle stay away from Dodge 8-3/4" TAPERED axle rears! Pain in the rear. An 8-3/4" would probably be fine if you're not towing. I went with D60HD because I planned to tow and also I had one in excellent shape, low miles that I knew the history on. The 8-3/4" uses a crush sleeve for pinion depth adjustment.

I'm suggesting that you try the truck with drum brakes before going for disc conversion. If you can easily afford it then yeah, go for the discs, but otherwise a fresh set of drum brakes with premium shoes has a lot of stopping power. If you've already driven the truck with fresh new brakes and premium shoes and it wasn't good enough then obviously, discs are needed.

Have fun!

1952B3b23
03-01-2013, 07:13 PM
Both front and rear antisway bars were commonly used on all kinds of Dodge trucks for many years, from the 50's and throughout the 60's into the 70's, also very common on vans. Just get out to the Dismantler's with tape measure in hand. Doesn't have to be a Dodge bar either, they're pretty much universal if you can make the clamps or attachments work.

8-3/4 axles were used on Mopars of every type all through the late 50', 60's and 70's. That includes all the Hemi Mopars. It was the standard light duty truck axle and should be very close to your width, within 1-1/2". All were 5 on 4-1/2" bolt pattern, no 8 lugs. You may have to relocate the spring pads which is no biggy, replacement pads commonly available. On the rear axle stay away from Dodge 8-3/4" TAPERED axle rears! Pain in the rear. An 8-3/4" would probably be fine if you're not towing. I went with D60HD because I planned to tow and also I had one in excellent shape, low miles that I knew the history on. The 8-3/4" uses a crush sleeve for pinion depth adjustment.

I'm suggesting that you try the truck with drum brakes before going for disc conversion. If you can easily afford it then yeah, go for the discs, but otherwise a fresh set of drum brakes with premium shoes has a lot of stopping power. If you've already driven the truck with fresh new brakes and premium shoes and it wasn't good enough then obviously, discs are needed.

Have fun!

Good to know about the sway bars i'll have to check around and see where i can find some older Dodges that i might be able to swipe one from. Or like you said it doesnt have to be a dodge one so i'll just have to find a good junk yard to roam around to find one.

I like that the 8-3/4" rears are 5 on 4-1/2" bolt pattern cause i already have a set of wheels that i would like to use on the truck. The bit of research i did do on those rear axles told me to stay away from the Tapered axles. I also heard to stay away from the Imperial rear axles but i don't quite remember why. I'll also have to start cruising some of the local junk yards so i can see if i can find a usable 8-3/4".

I did drive the truck around with the drums and with the stock engine they seemed okay. Although other guys that have these trucks say really good things about the disc brake conversion and the stopping difference is like night and day. So i will definitely be putting them on the front axle and i'll be happy with drums in the rear.

Thanks for the help

-Chris

studedude
03-01-2013, 07:28 PM
Another thing that makes a big difference with drum brakes is silicone fluid. It requires a complete cleaning of the brake system to remove all the old fluid but it drastically increases the braking of drum brakes.The silicone fluid is denser than DOT 3 and as a result increases the pressure in the system. I have done several changeovers to silicone fluid in older vehicles and the difference is very noticeable.

JimmieD
03-01-2013, 08:02 PM
Good to know about the sway bars i'll have to check around and see where i can find some older Dodges that i might be able to swipe one from. Or like you said it doesnt have to be a dodge one so i'll just have to find a good junk yard to roam around to find one.

I like that the 8-3/4" rears are 5 on 4-1/2" bolt pattern cause i already have a set of wheels that i would like to use on the truck. The bit of research i did do on those rear axles told me to stay away from the Tapered axles. I also heard to stay away from the Imperial rear axles but i don't quite remember why. I'll also have to start cruising some of the local junk yards so i can see if i can find a usable 8-3/4".

I did drive the truck around with the drums and with the stock engine they seemed okay. Although other guys that have these trucks say really good things about the disc brake conversion and the stopping difference is like night and day. So i will definitely be putting them on the front axle and i'll be happy with drums in the rear.

Thanks for the help

-Chris

I haven't been to a Dismantlers in a long time, buddies say they're pretty well cleaned out on old iron when the price of scrap went nuts thanks to the Chinese buying it up by the shiploads. Hope you find some good stuff. I still know of some small outfits here and there that didn't sell out, but all out west. There's always Texas Acres, I think it's called, that specializes in vintage Mopars.

Don't get me wrong on the disc brakes and even the power steering. If things were different here I'd likely do both swaps and even plan to in the future, Lord willing, just can't now.

I looked at the caliper mounting brackets for disc conversion kits and it's just a great big flat plate with a cutout in one place to mount the caliper. If I do it I'll just take the measurements for my calipers and discs I'd use and make my own mounting plate, and a whole heck of a lot smaller! Can't see any need for a 1/4" to 3/8" thick plate the size of the entire brake backing plate just to mount the caliper. Mine would be much, much smaller. Calipers and discs both available from auto parts houses. Also need a dual chamber disc/drum master.

Somewhat the same for the steering. I've seen all the setups and I believe I can build my own with the right steering box. Had a box to do it, fit perfect, almost a bolt in and free from a buddy. GREAT! Yeah, until at the last minute I took another look: REVERSE ROTATION! BUMMER!!! Otherwise perfect. Still working on that. Hint: it was a 60' - 70's Ford pickup box. Possibly some had the opposite rotation.

Mopar Norm who owns the original Dodge Sweptline Forum was going to do a kit with part of the design from the guy in Canada. The Canadian guy flaked and was afraid of liability issues, the reason he quit making them in the first place. Mopar Norm found that it would be difficult to offer a kit at an affordable price, such that few Sweptliners would be willing to pony up, mostly being old broke cowboys and cheapskates in the first place ha! It's difficult but nowhere near impossible.

The reference to Imperial axles may have been about 9-1/4" axles that got a bad reputation for the C clip that retains the axles. All that was overblown about the C clip problems and actually that's one very stout rear end, nearly equal to a Dana 60 in some ways, except for the C clip design. The failures were rare even at that. I think they were used with the last of the Hemis but not absolutely sure, regardless, they're pretty tough. Seems to me there's a fix for the C clip issue? Maybe Mopar even did an upgrade after some early failures, again not sure 'cause it's been a long time.

Hoping the best for you in your search and adventure. This is a very big job for one guy so I suggest attacking it like a side of beef. No problem at all for you to conquer the whole thing, if you do it one meal and one bite at a time!

Not to talk down to you, just a reminder: Please in all things, without exception, put SAFETY FIRST. We're talking some tremendous weights here, not just for being crushed but enough to shear off fingers, break bones etc. Use lots of jackstands, chain restraints, chocks and blocks, whatever.. Be careful!

You can do it, I have no doubt about that, so enjoy yourself! :)

1952B3b23
03-04-2013, 12:23 PM
Another thing that makes a big difference with drum brakes is silicone fluid. It requires a complete cleaning of the brake system to remove all the old fluid but it drastically increases the braking of drum brakes.The silicone fluid is denser than DOT 3 and as a result increases the pressure in the system. I have done several changeovers to silicone fluid in older vehicles and the difference is very noticeable.

Thats good to know, Im redoing the braking system completely so its going to be fresh lines so everything will be nice and clean. Thanks

-Chris

1952B3b23
03-04-2013, 12:43 PM
I haven't been to a Dismantlers in a long time, buddies say they're pretty well cleaned out on old iron when the price of scrap went nuts thanks to the Chinese buying it up by the shiploads. Hope you find some good stuff. I still know of some small outfits here and there that didn't sell out, but all out west. There's always Texas Acres, I think it's called, that specializes in vintage Mopars.

Don't get me wrong on the disc brakes and even the power steering. If things were different here I'd likely do both swaps and even plan to in the future, Lord willing, just can't now.

I looked at the caliper mounting brackets for disc conversion kits and it's just a great big flat plate with a cutout in one place to mount the caliper. If I do it I'll just take the measurements for my calipers and discs I'd use and make my own mounting plate, and a whole heck of a lot smaller! Can't see any need for a 1/4" to 3/8" thick plate the size of the entire brake backing plate just to mount the caliper. Mine would be much, much smaller. Calipers and discs both available from auto parts houses. Also need a dual chamber disc/drum master.

Somewhat the same for the steering. I've seen all the setups and I believe I can build my own with the right steering box. Had a box to do it, fit perfect, almost a bolt in and free from a buddy. GREAT! Yeah, until at the last minute I took another look: REVERSE ROTATION! BUMMER!!! Otherwise perfect. Still working on that. Hint: it was a 60' - 70's Ford pickup box. Possibly some had the opposite rotation.

Mopar Norm who owns the original Dodge Sweptline Forum was going to do a kit with part of the design from the guy in Canada. The Canadian guy flaked and was afraid of liability issues, the reason he quit making them in the first place. Mopar Norm found that it would be difficult to offer a kit at an affordable price, such that few Sweptliners would be willing to pony up, mostly being old broke cowboys and cheapskates in the first place ha! It's difficult but nowhere near impossible.

The reference to Imperial axles may have been about 9-1/4" axles that got a bad reputation for the C clip that retains the axles. All that was overblown about the C clip problems and actually that's one very stout rear end, nearly equal to a Dana 60 in some ways, except for the C clip design. The failures were rare even at that. I think they were used with the last of the Hemis but not absolutely sure, regardless, they're pretty tough. Seems to me there's a fix for the C clip issue? Maybe Mopar even did an upgrade after some early failures, again not sure 'cause it's been a long time.

Hoping the best for you in your search and adventure. This is a very big job for one guy so I suggest attacking it like a side of beef. No problem at all for you to conquer the whole thing, if you do it one meal and one bite at a time!

Not to talk down to you, just a reminder: Please in all things, without exception, put SAFETY FIRST. We're talking some tremendous weights here, not just for being crushed but enough to shear off fingers, break bones etc. Use lots of jackstands, chain restraints, chocks and blocks, whatever.. Be careful!

You can do it, I have no doubt about that, so enjoy yourself! :)


Yea i remember when the price of scrap was through the roof people where scrapping anything they could get there hands on including usable parts, thats really unfortunate. My dad is friends with a guy who owns a decent sized towing company/ junk yard so im hoping that he will be able to find me a usable 8-3/4" rear end. He's the one who found my '92 12v cummins parts truck thats donating its Getrag G360 to my 4bt swap, im hoping i'll get lucky again.

The mounting brackets are exactly how you described them, just a piece of plate to hold up the caliper. If you can get them dimensions and make it up then you're way ahead of the game and you'll save a bunch of money. Those brackets to do the conversion on my '52 are $175 for the set, then you go out to the local NAPA and pick up the rest of the parts. Im going to redo the entire braking system and i think im going to go with a master cylinder/booster combo that mounts to the frame rail and sits under the cab. This will clean up my firewall and give me more space in the engine bay but im not quite at that point to make a final decision on that so time will tell.

I dont quite remember what the issue was with the Imperials and if it was the C-clip thing you are talking about but ive never heard of that so it may have been something else.

This is a really big job for just me but im going about it just like you suggest, conquering one problem at a time and asking for help and advice when i simply just dont know. Im confident i can do it, i just need to go slow and make sure im doing everything as safe as possible and correctly. The guys on this forum and my other pilothouse forum are a huge help and in many ways i wouldnt have as much success with this as i do with out you guys. This is the first swap ive ever done and its a huge learning experience but i love it and enjoy it even when i feel like pushing the truck off a cliff lol. I totally agree with you on the safety aspect thats definitely the most important thing!

Thanks for the help

-Chris

Goat
03-04-2013, 04:27 PM
Another thing that makes a big difference with drum brakes is silicone fluid. It requires a complete cleaning of the brake system to remove all the old fluid but it drastically increases the braking of drum brakes.The silicone fluid is denser than DOT 3 and as a result increases the pressure in the system. I have done several changeovers to silicone fluid in older vehicles and the difference is very noticeable.

Fluid density has nothing to do with brake system pressure. Brake systems, in steady state, are governed by Pascal's principle which does not incorporate fluid density as it is irrelevant. DOT 5 is actually a bit less dense than water and DOT 3/4 fluid, with and average of 0.990 kg/m^3. DOT 3/4 averages around 1.050 kg/m^3...

More than likely, you experienced an improvement in dynamic response because there was a complete fluild change not because the properties of DOT 5.

1952B3b23
03-04-2013, 06:48 PM
Fluid density has nothing to do with brake system pressure. Brake systems, in steady state, are governed by Pascal's principle which does not incorporate fluid density as it is irrelevant. DOT 5 is actually a bit less dense than water and DOT 3/4 fluid, with and average of 0.990 kg/m^3. DOT 3/4 averages around 1.050 kg/m^3...

More than likely, you experienced an improvement in dynamic response because there was a complete fluild change not because the properties of DOT 5.

If brake system pressure is governed by Pascals principle then this would depend on fluid density (rho) as per the pascal equation. I think its as simple as Pressure= Force/Area. Then the brake booster essentially multiplies the amount of pressure you can produce just by pushing down on the pedal, therefore increasing system pressure. Im no brake system designer so im not sure thats 100% correct, makes sense to me though.

-Chris

Goat
03-04-2013, 07:50 PM
If brake system pressure is governed by Pascals principle then this would depend on fluid density (rho) as per the pascal equation. I think its as simple as Pressure= Force/Area. Then the brake booster essentially multiplies the amount of pressure you can produce just by pushing down on the pedal, therefore increasing system pressure. Im no brake system designer so im not sure thats 100% correct, makes sense to me though.

-Chris

That is Pascal's Law...which gave the birth to Pascal's Principal. "Pressure applied at any point in a fluid is transmitted undiminished throughout that fluid." So P1 would be at the master cylinder & P2 would be your brake. P1 = P2, per Pascal...

Pascal's equation does apply because your master is higher than your brake caliper, but the affect is negligible and can be ignored.

Then you it's as simple as you said, P = F/A. Hence, F1/A1 = F2/A2.

Ya, the brake booster adds more F1. Ok, I'm going to shut up and stop derailing your thread.

1952B3b23
03-05-2013, 06:43 AM
That is Pascal's Law...which gave the birth to Pascal's Principal. "Pressure applied at any point in a fluid is transmitted undiminished throughout that fluid." So P1 would be at the master cylinder & P2 would be your brake. P1 = P2, per Pascal...

Pascal's equation does apply because your master is higher than your brake caliper, but the affect is negligible and can be ignored.

Then you it's as simple as you said, P = F/A. Hence, F1/A1 = F2/A2.

Ya, the brake booster adds more F1. Ok, I'm going to shut up and stop derailing your thread.

Yup i agree with that logic. Time to get back on track with the 4bt stuff instead of physics, im getting flash backs to my college physics days :grinpimp:

studedude
03-05-2013, 12:41 PM
The comparison was against complete brake jobs using DOT 3 fluid and I am sure that part of the results were because of the higher quality of the DOT 5 as opposed to the very poor quality of the DOT 3. The statement about the density of the fluids came from a master chemist friend of mine that had no interest whatsoever in the outcome of the brake jobs.I just inquired of him the reason for the difference in performance of the two brake jobs, and he replied that it was probably because of the difference in densities of the two fluids,one being synthetic and the other being petroleum based. Similar to the difference in performance between synthetic oil and petroleum based oils.Two of the vehicles that had Silicone fluid brake jobs done on them were non power brakes,and the owner of the 67 Chevy 3/4 ton was amazed at the difference between it and his wife's Firebird with power brakes that he had spent $255 dollars on at "Just Brakes" The pressure of a fluid in a column is determined by the density of the fluid and the height of the column,right? [QUOTE=Goat;222331]Fluid density has nothing to do with brake system pressure. Brake systems, in steady state, are governed by Pascal's principle which does not incorporate fluid density as it is irrelevant. DOT 5 is actually a bit less dense than water and DOT 3/4 fluid, with and average of 0.990 kg/m^3. DOT 3/4 averages around 1.050 kg/m^3...

More than likely, you experienced an improvement in dynamic response because there was a complete fluild change not because the properties of DOT 5.[/QUOT

1952B3b23
03-21-2013, 12:03 PM
Hey Guys,

So its been awhile since ive been able to update this but i have the truck down to bare frame no front or rear suspension. My next step is to box the frame, for this i bought a sheet of 1/8" steel. My frame is 1/8" thick C-channel, do you guys think 1/8" will be enough? I sure hope so since i already have the steel sitting in the garage. Also any tips for boxing the frame, seems rather straight forward but then again you never know.

After i box the frame i'll be able to reinstall the front suspension and when i find a suitable rear end i'll move onto that. Once i have the truck sitting at ride height i'll toss the cab back on and move on to motor installation.

Thanks in advance.

-Chris

JimmieD
03-21-2013, 02:17 PM
Hey Guys,

So its been awhile since ive been able to update this but i have the truck down to bare frame no front or rear suspension. My next step is to box the frame, for this i bought a sheet of 1/8" steel. My frame is 1/8" thick C-channel, do you guys think 1/8" will be enough? I sure hope so since i already have the steel sitting in the garage. Also any tips for boxing the frame, seems rather straight forward but then again you never know.

After i box the frame i'll be able to reinstall the front suspension and when i find a suitable rear end i'll move onto that. Once i have the truck sitting at ride height i'll toss the cab back on and move on to motor installation.

Thanks in advance.

-Chris

Well, sorry to say there is a caution involved. Chrysler Corp. issued TSB's as Technical Service Bulletins warning all to not weld on Dodge truck frames. Reason being, unlike other manufaturers, Mopar used high carbon heat-treated steel for their frames, not mild low-carbon untreated steel. This is quickly seen by grinding on it: bright blueish-white sparks instead of the yellow-orange sparks seen on other frames. One would note that all frame components are riveted together and all added parts are bolted. Because of heat treat the welding can weaken the frame instead of strengthen it if special care isn't taken. Further, we amateurs at home have no way to re-treat the metal after welding.

An exception is that it's allowable to weld at points past the main frame support sections, as between farthest spring pads and bumpers. In boxing the frame you'd at least want to take care to only run short beads and those far apart until it's all patched together so that you won't heat up significant areas and destroy the temper.

I chose to build my motor mounts out of 3/8" plate, as a deep wide box piece that was the height of inside of frame rails, with a top plate and bottom plate and rear plate all in full contact with frame. Then drilled and bolted in place at top, bottom and outside wall of frame. Spreads the load, increases strength, doesn't effect heat treat and a whole world of simpler.

By the way, that original Dodge frame steel should be closer to 3/16" than to 1/8".

Desoto61
03-21-2013, 04:24 PM
Well, sorry to say there is a caution involved. Chrysler Corp. issued TSB's as Technical Service Bulletins warning all to not weld on Dodge truck frames. Reason being, unlike other manufaturers, Mopar used high carbon heat-treated steel for their frames, not mild low-carbon untreated steel. This is quickly seen by grinding on it: bright blueish-white sparks instead of the yellow-orange sparks seen on other frames. One would note that all frame components are riveted together and all added parts are bolted. Because of heat treat the welding can weaken the frame instead of strengthen it if special care isn't taken. Further, we amateurs at home have no way to re-treat the metal after welding.

I chose to build my motor mounts out of 3/8" plate, as a deep wide box piece that was the height of inside of frame rails, with a top plate and bottom plate and rear plate all in full contact with frame. Then drilled and bolted in place at top, bottom and outside wall of frame. Spreads the load, increases strength, doesn't effect heat treat and a whole world of simpler.

I have heard similar. The old frames were designed with flexing in mind. Now my Power Wagon was converted when new for tow truck duty so they welded a support the length of the bed to reinforce the frame and bolt the tow assembly to, and that survived intact for 60+ years, so your mileage may vary. But I did the same as JimmyD with both my motor mounts and the one crossmember I had to replace. I made them follow the interior of the C-channel and bolted for strength. You may also want to do like Dodge did and try to angle the ends vice a straight line. Helps to spread out any stress risers and reduce the chance of the frame cracking at the end point.

1952B3b23
03-21-2013, 06:53 PM
JimmieD and Desoto61,

Well isnt that a fine how do you do lol :grinpimp: I didnt know that about the welding on the frames. I just assumed that it was okay because of the fact that i know some guys that have boxed entire dodge pilothouse frames and they told me that it wasnt that big of a deal to do. I guess they must have never heard about this Technical Service Bulletin that was issued. I did notice that all things are bolted or riveted to the frame but it never dawned on me that it was because welding is frowned upon.

I guess my follow up question would be if i dont box the frame do you guys think it will still be strong enough? Im not against not boxing it since that would save me a bundle of work, im just concerned about strength and safety. These old frames dont seem like they would be happy handling the wait and torque of the 4bt without some help in the form of boxing. If i dont box it would it be safe enough to bolt in additional crossmembers in key locations to make sure that the frame doesnt become twisted. I see how fabricating the motor mounts as you two described would work and would add strength.

Also i just went out to my shop and used a sheet metal gauge on the frame and the C-channel thickness comes out to 0.1345 (10 gauge), so slightly thicker than 1/8".

-Chris

Goat
03-21-2013, 09:04 PM
Do you guys have a tsb number? I'm curious because I haven never heard of such old vehicles having a heat treated frame.

1/8 is fine...you attain substantially more stiffness through shape than you do through thickness.

BobS
03-22-2013, 07:38 AM
Frame boxing opinion from me:

Boxing a frame turns a normally engineered frame into somewhat of a nightmare. You completely relocate the normal stress points during normal flex into areas not originally designed to handle the new loading points. The boxing will have a different flex rate than the channel unless you match the dimensional thickness and original steel grade used by the factory.

I rarely to almost never have seen a frame boxed properly. To do it properly you would need to completely dismantle the frame into all of the individual channels and crossmembers. The crossmembers would need to be shortened by 1X the channel depth per side and moved inward to the new inner channel incorporating a flanged type mount.

Frame drain and ventilation holes are always overlooked. Interior rustproofing omitted which leads to early deterioration on vehicles that are driven frequently in salty environments. GM & IH tried their hand in using frame boxing in the 60's & 70's. Corvettes of that era that became daily drivers in my part of the world developed a rather nasty tendency to break the frame just ahead of the rear wheels. IH Scouts & late 70's Grand Prixs & their GM sister cars rotted out starting out at the rear wheel well areas.

These old truck frames are a lot stronger than the average person of today thinks they are. It was not uncommon for somebody back in the 50's & 60's to blow out a tire from overloading a 1/2 ton pick up truck, not bending and twisting a frame from engine torque or overlading the cargo end. Remember there are 4BT repowers that have been done using FRAMELESS unibody type vehicles.

I think this frame boxing mania goes back to the Power block TV series. I could understand doing this when you construct an off road vehicle with air locking differentials in order to maintain a zero flex chassis or on a sports car that you want to keep flat on a racetrack but I will never understand doing frame boxing on a conversion when it goes beyond providing a location for an engine or transmission mount. The only other place frame boxing for strength applies is in using one of those hide away fold up wrecker attachments for towing cars.

Remember this is my OPINION and if you want to do it then by all means feel free to do it.

Desoto61
03-22-2013, 11:47 AM
The Power Wagon was a 1-ton rated truck in its day, but plenty of people have put 4BTs, 6BTs and V8s in place of the 100 hp flathead six with no problems. Both M-series rebuild and Legacy Classic Trucks use the stock frames for their resto-mods. A fair number of those trucks go back to work vice sitting pretty in a garage and most people have no issues. I don't know what the rating on your truck was but I would think it's going to be similar enough to be OK.

Then like today the manufacturers knew people were going to abuse these vehicles beyond their rated specifications. Within reason if you currently have a solid frame I see no reason it will not be sufficient. The power difference between your 4BT and the stock motor is probably not as huge as you think it is unless you have some crazy plans for it.

And to back up BobS, when I got my power wagon it had upgraded HD rear leaf springs with helpers. I think I counted 18 leaves with 6 or 7 helpers. The factory setup has no helper springs so a set of Z-shaped 3/8" plate spring perches were bolted to the frame for the helper springs. All four of them had been snapped off at some point in the trucks history. In the 20+ years they used that truck as a wrecker the worst damage on the frame I could find was from rust.

1952B3b23
03-26-2013, 05:59 PM
I tried researching a TSB number on google and came up empty handed. A member on a different forum said that this only applies to 2003 vehicles and newer, whether or not thats true i dont know. I do know that i have ground and welded on my frame before and it didnt seem any different than regular mild steel.

-Chris

1952B3b23
03-26-2013, 06:24 PM
Frame boxing opinion from me:

Boxing a frame turns a normally engineered frame into somewhat of a nightmare. You completely relocate the normal stress points during normal flex into areas not originally designed to handle the new loading points. The boxing will have a different flex rate than the channel unless you match the dimensional thickness and original steel grade used by the factory.

I rarely to almost never have seen a frame boxed properly. To do it properly you would need to completely dismantle the frame into all of the individual channels and crossmembers. The crossmembers would need to be shortened by 1X the channel depth per side and moved inward to the new inner channel incorporating a flanged type mount.

Frame drain and ventilation holes are always overlooked. Interior rustproofing omitted which leads to early deterioration on vehicles that are driven frequently in salty environments. GM & IH tried their hand in using frame boxing in the 60's & 70's. Corvettes of that era that became daily drivers in my part of the world developed a rather nasty tendency to break the frame just ahead of the rear wheels. IH Scouts & late 70's Grand Prixs & their GM sister cars rotted out starting out at the rear wheel well areas.

These old truck frames are a lot stronger than the average person of today thinks they are. It was not uncommon for somebody back in the 50's & 60's to blow out a tire from overloading a 1/2 ton pick up truck, not bending and twisting a frame from engine torque or overlading the cargo end. Remember there are 4BT repowers that have been done using FRAMELESS unibody type vehicles.

I think this frame boxing mania goes back to the Power block TV series. I could understand doing this when you construct an off road vehicle with air locking differentials in order to maintain a zero flex chassis or on a sports car that you want to keep flat on a racetrack but I will never understand doing frame boxing on a conversion when it goes beyond providing a location for an engine or transmission mount. The only other place frame boxing for strength applies is in using one of those hide away fold up wrecker attachments for towing cars.

Remember this is my OPINION and if you want to do it then by all means feel free to do it.

Sorry its taking me so long to get back to you guys on this topic, i got to start off spring with the flu so i havent been online in awhile.

I guess where i got the idea for needing to box the frame was from the fact that i just thought that the stock frame wouldnt handle the extra weight and torque with out some strengthening. I never really second guessed the idea, i thought it was something that was mandatory when swapping a 4bt into a half ton setup. It sounds like this may not be the case now that i hear you guys describing the negative affects that it could have. My understanding behind C-channel frame design is to allow the frame to flex to help absorb vibrations and twist from driving, that sound right? The more i think about it i think that i may just box the front most area of the frame where the motor mounts just to try and stiffen that area up a bit more. The rest of the frame would just sit the way it is, most likely craft a new tranny cross member and call that part complete.

The points you make about frame ventilation and drainage holes are good ones and it doesn't surprise me that most people neglect these. If you get water pooled up in there it is very easy to rust the frame inside out just like you mentioned with the corvette issue. Up here in New England it is definitely a problem with the salt on the roads in the winter time and the nice humid weather we get in the summer. The benefit my truck will have is that i wont be driving it in the winter it will just sit in the garage and hibernate.

My truck is a 1/2 ton model which also adds to the reason why i thought that a complete frame boxing was needed. Now that i think of it though im not sure the frames between the 1/2-3/4 ton models where very different from each other. Some of those trucks just had longer wheel bases but the frame construction was the same. I do know that some fellows have put hemi's in these trucks without boxing the frames and have had no problems, which some of the motors make 250+ HP and 200+ lb-ft. I may just be making an issue of something that is not simply because i assumed it had to be done.

Thanks for the good write up Bob and i appreciate your opinion and help.

-Chris

1952B3b23
03-26-2013, 06:52 PM
The Power Wagon was a 1-ton rated truck in its day, but plenty of people have put 4BTs, 6BTs and V8s in place of the 100 hp flathead six with no problems. Both M-series rebuild and Legacy Classic Trucks use the stock frames for their resto-mods. A fair number of those trucks go back to work vice sitting pretty in a garage and most people have no issues. I don't know what the rating on your truck was but I would think it's going to be similar enough to be OK.

Then like today the manufacturers knew people were going to abuse these vehicles beyond their rated specifications. Within reason if you currently have a solid frame I see no reason it will not be sufficient. The power difference between your 4BT and the stock motor is probably not as huge as you think it is unless you have some crazy plans for it.

And to back up BobS, when I got my power wagon it had upgraded HD rear leaf springs with helpers. I think I counted 18 leaves with 6 or 7 helpers. The factory setup has no helper springs so a set of Z-shaped 3/8" plate spring perches were bolted to the frame for the helper springs. All four of them had been snapped off at some point in the trucks history. In the 20+ years they used that truck as a wrecker the worst damage on the frame I could find was from rust.

My truck is a half ton model but i think the basic frame design is the same between it and the 3/4 and 1 ton models. The frame is in good condition currently and doesnt seem to be twisted and out of square. I have made some preliminary measurements to check its straightness versus the factory specs and it comes within 1/8". I will have to do some further investigation to make sure that its truly square before i continue on with the swap.

I dont really have any crazy power upgrades planned for the 4bt maybe a little bit of tuning but i dont plan on trying to run this thing at the track. I just want a nice cruiser to be able to take out after work and on the weekends. So long story short my truck will not be used as a truck and garaged all the time when im not driving it. It seems by what you and others have suggested is that frame boxing isnt really needed, and the more i think about it the more i agree.

Thanks for the help

-Chris

1952B3b23
04-09-2013, 07:58 AM
Hey Guys,

So im in the process of removing the Getrag G360 from my '92 2 wheel drive Cummins part truck to use behind my 4bt and im having some trouble. For some reason i cant get the damn drive shaft to come off. What ive done so far is removed the caps that are over the U-joints at the transmission end and rear differential end and then i un-bolted the drive shaft carrier bearing from where it mounts to the frame. I thought that this would allow the drive shaft to sag down enough so that the U-joints would come out of the rear diff and tranny but no such luck. One thing i havent done yet is removed the tranny cross member. Im thinking if i do then this may allow me to push the tranny up or down giving me some more space to slide the U-joint out. Ive never messed around with a dual drive shaft setup like this truck has so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

-Chris

1952B3b23
04-09-2013, 07:50 PM
Never mind guys i figured out how the drive shaft is removed. I didnt realize what was hiding under that dust boot and that the two drive shafts separate at that point.

1952B3b23
05-23-2013, 09:37 PM
Update:

Ive been hunting for awhile now for a rear end for this truck and i finally found a mopar 8 3/4 that was out of a b body car ('61-'69) it has the "742" case and sure grip with 3.55's. Got it off of a guy who was putting a big old hemi in a '37 Plymouth and this was the rear end he was going to use until he sold off the motor before ever really getting to use the car. Supposedly he had it professionally rebuilt some time ago and it has all new 11" drum brakes and components. I think this will do well behind the 4bt, time will tell though. Other than that ive been working on cleaning up the frame and patching unnecessary holes. I've also been hunting for one specific part so that i can put the front suspension back together, but finding these old dodge parts isn't getting any easier. Progress is going slowly but ive been swamped with work so stay tuned! Hoping i can accomplish some stuff over this long weekend.

Also id like to be able to post up more pics but ive "reached my quota" according to the message box. Can someone direct me on how to be able to post infinite pics id appreciate it. I know i need to upgrade my membership i just don't know where, thanks.

-Chris

JimmieD
05-23-2013, 11:37 PM
I'd say the bottom line on the 8-3/4" rear is all about how you drive it. For sure they're up to Hemi torque and that on the drag strip, expected to handle over 100 passes at full tilt boogie! If it doesn't have tapered axles you should be fine with a 4BT long as you don't just thrash it to death intentionally.

Hope you can get pics straightened out, I'd like to see your progress.

61TWPW
05-25-2013, 10:00 AM
Chris, your build sounds interesting. On my 61 TownWagon Power Wagon, I bolted my mounts to the frame for transmission , transfercase and engine. I've not had any issues with frame damage so far. I've used this truck as a daily driver, towed a trailer full of wood from the Forest Service cutting area and multiple vehicles. Your intended use should be fine without extra frame boxing. My build was my first ever, and it took about two years. Part of that was waiting for the extra $$ from overtime to finance the project. Don't get too frustrated when issues arrive. Most issues will have happened to someone on here and there is a solution posted. Love seeing anotherbold Dodge still on the road. If you join as a " blue star" supporter, you can post more pictures. Was only $20/yr. when I joined, maybe more now.

Ram Man 02
05-25-2013, 09:41 PM
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/announcement.php?f=6

1952B3b23
05-28-2013, 11:50 AM
I'd say the bottom line on the 8-3/4" rear is all about how you drive it. For sure they're up to Hemi torque and that on the drag strip, expected to handle over 100 passes at full tilt boogie! If it doesn't have tapered axles you should be fine with a 4BT long as you don't just thrash it to death intentionally.

Hope you can get pics straightened out, I'd like to see your progress.

Yea im hoping that the 8 3/4 will last, and since i dont plan on cranking up the motor to much i think it'll do just fine (keeping fingers crossed). I'll have to check on the tapered axles im not sure about that one.

-Chris

1952B3b23
05-28-2013, 11:59 AM
Chris, your build sounds interesting. On my 61 TownWagon Power Wagon, I bolted my mounts to the frame for transmission , transfercase and engine. I've not had any issues with frame damage so far. I've used this truck as a daily driver, towed a trailer full of wood from the Forest Service cutting area and multiple vehicles. Your intended use should be fine without extra frame boxing. My build was my first ever, and it took about two years. Part of that was waiting for the extra $$ from overtime to finance the project. Don't get too frustrated when issues arrive. Most issues will have happened to someone on here and there is a solution posted. Love seeing anotherbold Dodge still on the road. If you join as a " blue star" supporter, you can post more pictures. Was only $20/yr. when I joined, maybe more now.

That's really good news about the bolting of the mounts straight to the frame. Although I still plan on boxing it in the areas of the motor and tranny mounts, it will make me feel better to have these areas reinforced since the rectangular shape will definitely stand up to the torsional stresses better than the C-channel. I'm just trying to take this project one step at a time and work on it when i can and just ask questions along the way. Thats the beauty of having this forum as a resource, the amount of experience and knowledge on here is incredible, i would certainly be at a big disadvantage without it. Thats why im more than happy to support with a $20/yr subscription because the help it gives me is so worth it. Once i upgrade i will start an actual "Build Thread" so i can post up pics and make it more viewer friendly.

-Chris

1952B3b23
05-28-2013, 12:00 PM
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/announcement.php?f=6

Thank you thats what i needed.

-Chris

1952B3b23
10-15-2013, 12:56 PM
Hey Guys,

Wow its been forever since i posted on my thread. I have been working on the swap, mainly on the frame of the '52 and buying/waiting on suspension parts for it. I want to get the old girl back to a rolling chassis before i can go ahead and start mocking up the
4bt. One major thing that did happen is that im ditching the industrial 4bt for an on road 4bt (CPL 1260). I found a 1993 intercooled motor with about 180,000 miles on it that supposedly was removed from an Oshkosh truck, it was only 1.5 hours away from me so i went and took a look. The guy said he bought it to drop into a '68 dodge truck but decided to go with a 6bt instead so wanted to sell it off. He fired it up for me and she seemed to run alright. The only immediate problem i saw was the injection pump (VE) was leaking, looked like it was coming from near the throttle shaft. I have read online that this seems like a common place for them to develop a leak. The motor is mated to a borg-warner T19 4 speed that i dont plan on using, i have a Getrag G360 5 speed that im going to use. The G360 has overdrive and will give me better cruising RPMs and fuel mileage ( i hope). So i bought the motor/trans package and he gave me a bunch of parts that he pulled from the Oshkosh truck like, air box, intercooler, intercooler plumbing, radiator, hydraulic filled motor mounts, motor mounts on the engine, and motor mounts that went in the frame. All in all i think i got a decent deal on this considering the extras that i got. Im also happy because now i dont have to worry about governor issues with the off road 4bt, and this new motor has an EPA rating. Massachusetts tends to be pretty strict with there regulations so having an EPA rated motor im sure cant hurt. I'll try and put up some pictures of the new motor after work.

One thing i did notice the other day was that i stuck my finger inside the outlet of the compressor side of the turbo and there seemed to be some oily residue in there, im not sure what that means except that its not good? I think i read somewhere awhile back that rebuilding the turbo would fix that.

Thanks for reading,

-Chris

1952B3b23
10-15-2013, 04:12 PM
Heres a couple pics of the "new" 4bt and T19.

-Chris

damarble
10-15-2013, 04:23 PM
You should make about a grand back by selling that Ford adapter setup and tranny, that will knock down the price of the new 4BT a lot.

1952B3b23
10-15-2013, 06:09 PM
You should make about a grand back by selling that Ford adapter setup and tranny, that will knock down the price of the new 4BT a lot.

Damn, are you serious!?!? If i can get that much than thats great news cause that means i made out like a bandit. I havent been able to do any research on what they're going for now in days, i'll have to check around and see.

-Chris

dieseldude
10-15-2013, 06:55 PM
you can ask that for it but I doubt it will sell quickly from my experience.

damarble
10-15-2013, 08:29 PM
Damn, are you serious!?!? If i can get that much than thats great news cause that means i made out like a bandit. I havent been able to do any research on what they're going for now in days, i'll have to check around and see.

-Chris

I see the adapter sets priced at $8-900 all the time. Like dieseldude said, it might take awhile though.

JimmieD
10-16-2013, 12:06 AM
Congratulations on your purchase, Chris, sounds like you're on your way now!

1952B3b23
10-16-2013, 06:48 AM
I see the adapter sets priced at $8-900 all the time. Like dieseldude said, it might take awhile though.

Hmmm well i'll just see whats out there and price accordingly when the time comes. Thanks for the heads up.

-Chris

1952B3b23
10-16-2013, 06:50 AM
Congratulations on your purchase, Chris, sounds like you're on your way now!

Thanks Jimmie. I feel much better about the outcome now that i'll be using an on road motor.

char1355
10-16-2013, 07:02 AM
Leaky pump seem to be a common issue. Probably good time for a complete reseal. Also might want to install a new governor spring since you'll have it torn down anyway. Some guys who have done the reseal say it can be a PIA. Shops charge in the $350 range to do that and although I'm as cheap as the next guy that may be money well spent. You can always keep your other engine for spare parts or pick up another VE pump later.

1952B3b23
10-16-2013, 07:26 AM
Leaky pump seem to be a common issue. Probably good time for a complete reseal. Also might want to install a new governor spring since you'll have it torn down anyway. Some guys who have done the reseal say it can be a PIA. Shops charge in the $350 range to do that and although I'm as cheap as the next guy that may be money well spent. You can always keep your other engine for spare parts or pick up another VE pump later.

Good point, i was planning on having a shop reseal my pump, installing a 3200 rpm governor spring, and new fuel pin. I have two shops local two me that are real Cummins gurus so i think it'd be wise to let one of them handle it. I wish i could keep the other 4bt but my garage is running out of space and i could use the money towards other stuff on the '52. Ive got to sell the old flatty and 3 on the tree tranny that came with the truck and rear end, that'll help fund the project too.

What are your thoughts on oily residue on the outlet of the compressor side of the turbo?

Thanks,

-Chris

char1355
10-16-2013, 09:32 AM
Sound like the oil seal may be leaking in the compressor. Wise thing would be a rebuild kit and eliminate that worry. Although you can get turbo rebuild kits cheap on ebay, many guys prefer to pay a little extra and get a genuine Holset kit. That may be one you can do yourself if you have a few basic tools. Oil leaks in the turbo can turn into an ugly thing.

1952B3b23
10-16-2013, 11:30 AM
Yea sounds like a rebuild may be in order, thanks for the heads up on the rebuild kit.

The dataplate on the turbo is missing, it looks like the original turbo that came on the motor. I think from my research these motors came with a small H1C? I guess i could just order a new dataplate from Cummins and know for sure.

-Chris

char1355
10-16-2013, 05:09 PM
Is the data plate still on the engine? If it is, go to Cummins Quick Serve and put in your serial number (ESN). That will show you every part that came on your engine. That service is free for the basic. You may not be able to get a new data plate for the turbo because those are individually serial numbered. Unless you know the s/n on the turbo they probably won't give you a new plate.

1952B3b23
10-16-2013, 08:24 PM
I did register my motor on the Cummins QuickServe and looked up the turbo. It didn't say what model it was just gave the part number. I'll have to try a google search with the P/N, that'll tell me what kind it is. Good call on the data plate, unless the turbo s/n is stamped somewhere on it I have no idea what it is. So you're right they probably wouldn't give me a plate, oh well.


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1952B3b23
02-04-2014, 02:45 PM
Hey Guys,

So im still working on this project its coming along decently but at a slow pace, at least not as fast as id like. I will have to start a build thread on here to keep you guys updated. The other day i went ahead and put the 4bt with adapter plate and starter mounted between the frame rails. I had a major problem with the starter and steering box on the truck wanting to occupy the same space. There was also no room to shift the motor to the passenger side. The adapter plate and starter are off of my 92 12 V cummins with a getrag g360 5 speed. So i sat there looking at this wondering what to do, i then remembered that i had the ford adapter plate and strater to use. This moved the starter to the passenger side and solved the issue with the steering box being in the way. The motor fit nicely in the frame with plenty of clearance for the mounts, drag link, and axle.

Here are my thoughts:

1. The tarnny that i have to mate to the ford bellhousing is a borg warner T19 4 speed. I really need the OD because im running a 3.55 rear end ratio (Mopar 8-3/4, '742' Case) and P235/70/R15 tires. I dont want bigger tires cause they make the truck look goofy and to tall. I could buy a ring and pinion gear thats, 3.23:1 or 2.70:1 and swap that out. Id like the 4bt to run around 1700-2000 RPM cruising speed. The 3.23 gears at 65 mph gives about 2500 rpm, and 2.70 gears at 65 mph gives about 2100 rpm. Thatís running the T19 tranny. I got those rpm numbers from the following gear ratio calculator:

http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

2. My second option would be to ditch the T19 and find a 5 speed tranny that will mount to the ford bell housing. I like the idea of using the T19 cause I already have it but I need to have this thing cruise decently on the highway so I need my gearing right.

3. I still have the Getrag G360 that I really wanted to use cause itís a 5 speed and would have worked well with the 3.55s in the rear. The starter/steering box issue basically killed that though. Unless there is an adapter plate that will allow me to use it but moves the starter to the passenger side?

What do you guys think? Im glad I was able to make it fit with moving the starter to the passenger side so that major issue is resolved. I just want to make sure I get my gears right cause that will make or break the truck. Iíll post up some pics of the motor sitting between the rails for your viewing pleasure when im out of work.

Thanks in advance,

-Chris

ky-donzi
02-04-2014, 03:08 PM
Chris you can use the t19 with a gear vendors OD or a ranger OD unit. The latter shows up on ebay occaitional reasonable. It will effective turn your 4 speed into a 7 speed by OD each gear except for 1st.

1952B3b23
02-04-2014, 04:15 PM
Thanks for the reply. I looked at the gear vendors unit and it would be pretty sweet. A new one is almost $3k. I can't afford that solution right now. Also the time that it will take to find a decent used one may be just to much. I'm trying to get the motor/ Trans all mounted up and rear end in place pretty soon. I actually have time to work on the project during winter. As soon as the weather gets nice my second job starts again.

-Chris


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ky-donzi
02-04-2014, 04:23 PM
Advanced adapter ranger OD is much cheaper, that's what I have

1952B3b23
02-04-2014, 04:25 PM
Advanced adapter ranger OD is much cheaper, that's what I have

Thank you, i appreciate it. Ive never heard of that product, i am going to look into it. Whats the typical cost of a unit? What kind of transmission do you have it on?

-Chris

ky-donzi
02-04-2014, 04:43 PM
New 1400ish, I've seen them as cheap as 500 on ebay.

I have the chevy sm465, similar to the np435 which is primarily used as a ford tranny.

I'm pretty sure the t19 and np435 ford version will interchange, so a ranger for either of these would swap out ( check before you buy). The chevy 465 uses a different ranger so don't buy that one and expect to use it with out changing input shafts.

Another good option is the SBF zf5. Should bolt right up to your ford adapter, also the Mazda SBF 1/2ton tranny.... Since you are 2wd you have quite a few options

Hope that helps

ky-donzi
02-04-2014, 04:49 PM
http://www.advanceadapters.com/products/760014m-27--ford-range-torque-spliter-overdrive-27-with-a-4848-retainer-index/

JimmieD
02-04-2014, 05:09 PM
Chris, is the steering box on the inside of frame rail or outside [wheel side]? I'm thinking it's inside. I've heard the Pilothouse frame horns in front are narrower than Power Giant or Sweptline frames. On the off chance the steering box [probably a Saginaw 525?] is outside the frame it won't hurt anything to put a shim plate behind it to give yourself clearance. I believe you could also change its position up/down to give yourself more clearance because of how the pitman arm works, simply pushing fore & aft with the wobbly joints.

You could also alter the frame dimensions in front to widen frame. Not too hard to make some extension plates to hold spring perch stuff.

On my '67 Town Wagon I have a Power Giant frame near as I can tell. The 2nd Gen Dodge 6BT adapter plate on 4BT leaves me oh, maybe 3/8"-1/4" clearance between Dodge starter and Saginaw 525 steering box. No problems so far, just enough to work, and starter or box are both fairly easy to change clearance wise.

I rebuilt my steering column with a Borgeson u-joint at bottom and welded up a couple of shafts to extend length. Previously if the seat was adjusted correctly for pedals the steering wheel was too far away, but now pedals & steering wheel are 'normal' distances. With the borgeson joint the shaft angle can be changed quite a bit so moving your steering box or any of it is no problem.

I also cut the crossmember out that held the 318 Polysphere bellhousing for NP435 manual trans. Built a new crossmember further back to support the NV4500 tailshaft.

So an extreme thought - maybe you could score a Power Giant frame and....you know....the big swap party. Body swaps aren't difficult, I've done a couple. Of course the last 2 were easier when my buddy and his crew showed up with the truck-mounted crane that the railroad uses to hoist derailed train cars ha ha! Could have easily lifted both trucks, at the same time, not just body pieces!

My engine sits real low the way I did the mounts, so low that I have no transmission tunnel on floor even using the NV4500! I rebuilt flooring with 1"x.125" square tubing framework plated over with 3/16" nickel chrome steel plate flooring. Some huge lumber mill switchgear boxes donated the premium quality steel plate! Flat as a pancake.

That tells me that maybe you could change your motor mounts and set your engine a bit higher to gain clearance for starter? I had to do a sort of box on passenger side firewall for clearance for downpipe but it hardly intrudes passenger side at all. I had to fab up the downpipe and exhaust anyway but the box still made life easier.

My Dodge, and I think most of the early trucks, just use big round flat pucks as the isolators for body mounts. That type of isolator is commonly available in almost any thickness so it's pretty easy to lift the body as needed if you want to adjust your engine/trans higher in frame. An inch or two and I doubt anybody could even tell.

I shifted my radiator forward in radiator support and also mounted a 1st Gen intercooler in front of it. Had to remove all the hood latch hardware and now use racer type hood pins & clips. Also had to cut into and slot the front side of radiator support above lower grill surround for bottom of I/C to slip down into. Ended up with about 1/4" clearance on each side at headlight trim, but it worked! With some mods I re-mounted original grill in original position by shifting it to front just a bit, can't hardly tell the I/C is stuck in behind it. Lots of room between engine front and raddy for electric fan.

1952B3b23
02-04-2014, 05:11 PM
Here are some pics of the motor sitting in the rails. The first pic is of the interference between the getrag starter and steering box. The rest are of the 4bt with ford adapter plate and starter mounted.

-Chris

JimmieD
02-04-2014, 05:59 PM
I see that's not a Saginaw 525, it's lots wider than mine! Also your starter sits lower than mine so I guess your adapter plate is different too. A later 525 steering box sure would give a lot more clearance there. I think if you swapped steering box & column with a later truck it would solve that whole problem and allow you to use the Mopar parts.

Your frame is visibly narrower than mine as well. The later frame also has a flare in the channel right above gearbox to allow clearance for steering column/shaft which yours doesn't have. If using a 525 you might have to make provision for column above box, not sure.

Later column and shaft for 525 isn't fully enclosed like yours. They only have an outer cover to just past firewall where it clamps in place. Below that just the naked shaft extends down to stub shaft on box.

twiisted71
02-04-2014, 06:11 PM
For a 2wd in such a light truck I'd keep the Ford stuff and pickup a M5R2 from an F150. Nice little sturdy 5 speed OD trans-NO need for an aux/outrageously expensive OD unit! You could pickup a handful of them for the price of one gear vendor unit! Plus it will bolt right up to the Ford bellhousing you have and can even use the same clutch!

1952B3b23
02-04-2014, 09:10 PM
New 1400ish, I've seen them as cheap as 500 on ebay.

I have the chevy sm465, similar to the np435 which is primarily used as a ford tranny.

I'm pretty sure the t19 and np435 ford version will interchange, so a ranger for either of these would swap out ( check before you buy). The chevy 465 uses a different ranger so don't buy that one and expect to use it with out changing input shafts.

Another good option is the SBF zf5. Should bolt right up to your ford adapter, also the Mazda SBF 1/2ton tranny.... Since you are 2wd you have quite a few options

Hope that helps

Thanks for the info. The thought of having that ranger OD in there is pretty cool, id have a bunch of gears to choose from which is always nice. How is it driving with one of those? Im not really sure how it works but, its a second stick for splitting the gears?

-Chris

1952B3b23
02-04-2014, 09:29 PM
Hey Jimmie D,

Thanks for the good thoughtful response as usual, i appreciate it. At this stage in the game id like to shy away from doing any further major mods to the frame, so trying to relocate the steering box and making the frame wider in the front is kind of out of the question. If the problem is solvable by using a Ford adapter plate then ill sacrifice it not being all mopar for having the functionality. The steering box that is on my truck is a Gemmer and it sticks off the frame mount about 6.5 inches. In order to be able to use the getrag g360 adapter plate and starter the steering box would have to be completely moved outside of the frame rails. Any kind of starter on the drivers side will cause to much interference with the box unfortunately. I already bought all new front end componenst and installed them (tie rod, tie rod ends, drag link, etc.) So i would like to keep all these parts, thats another reason why i say making major mods to the frame at this point is really not in the cards for me. Sometimes i wish i had just started fresh and built the frame my self and tailored it to the running gear that i have, but as they say hind sight is always 20/20. I am happy though that i can at least use ford hardware to make motor/tranny fitment work out. Im pretty sure i can raise the motor up a bit more and still have plenty of clearance for the hood. You are right the body mounts are flat pucks, a lot of guys just use hockey pucks, i plan on doing the same.

My main concern is the gearing. I want to be able to cruise in the truck without having it all wound up trying to keep up with traffic on the highway. If the answer is using a ford 5 speed or getting a ranger OD unit then ill have to bite the bullet and do it. Im just trying to go about it the most cost effective way. Thanks again for your posts.

-Chris

1952B3b23
02-04-2014, 09:46 PM
For a 2wd in such a light truck I'd keep the Ford stuff and pickup a M5R2 from an F150. Nice little sturdy 5 speed OD trans-NO need for an aux/outrageously expensive OD unit! You could pickup a handful of them for the price of one gear vendor unit! Plus it will bolt right up to the Ford bellhousing you have and can even use the same clutch!

My first question is can the M5R2 from the F150 handle the torque of the 4bt reliably? I do plan to turn up the power on the 4bt a little bit, im not looking for a race motor just some extra torque to tool around with.

I just did a quick search on ebay and found a bunch of M5R2s for sale, i saw a completely rebuilt unit for $650. Not to bad i dont think?

So i could use the clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel from the borg warner T19 in the M5R2?

Thanks for the help,

-Chris

ky-donzi
02-04-2014, 09:47 PM
Two sticks

Mine is a old unit that shifts with a button on the 4speed stick ( looks like a two speed switch on a 2-ton) All of the new ones use a separate gear pole. Dieseldude has one of the newer units like this... Might pm him.

The cheapest route will probably a zf5 or the Mazda, being 2wd, it will be pretty easy to find.

If you find a ranger used, that would be cost effective also

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E0o1o5W_f6o&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE0o1o5W_f6o

Russ McLean
02-04-2014, 10:13 PM
My first question is can the M5R2 from the F150 handle the torque of the 4bt reliably? I do plan to turn up the power on the 4bt a little bit, im not looking for a race motor just some extra torque to tool around with.

I just did a quick search on ebay and found a bunch of M5R2s for sale, i saw a completely rebuilt unit for $650. Not to bad i dont think?

So i could use the clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel from the borg warner T19 in the M5R2?

Thanks for the help,

-Chris

The M5R2 is holding up well, It took some abuse when my wife was learning to to drive a manual trans. We drove to 10 states in 2013.

We have a 1997 transmission out of a V6 F150. It slid into place, but, I did have to drill the metric bolt holes out to 3/8" (slightly bigger). The starter from my 1986 E350 chassis Wonder Bread truck bolted right up. I used the the clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel from the 4BT.

Make sure that the transmission that you but has the Late Windsor bellhousing pattern (Ford small block V8 & 300 CID straight 6 - and a couple years of Canadian built V6). The later "Modular" bellhousing transmissions are different - a 3 bolt starter and ??? other issues ???)

JimmieD
02-05-2014, 02:26 AM
Sounds good, Chris, I'm sure it will all work out fine in the end!

1952B3b23
02-05-2014, 09:21 AM
Two sticks

Mine is a old unit that shifts with a button on the 4speed stick ( looks like a two speed switch on a 2-ton) All of the new ones use a separate gear pole. Dieseldude has one of the newer units like this... Might pm him.

The cheapest route will probably a zf5 or the Mazda, being 2wd, it will be pretty easy to find.

If you find a ranger used, that would be cost effective also

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E0o1o5W_f6o&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE0o1o5W_f6o


Thats really cool thanks for posting that. Man the coolness factor of having twin sticks in my 52 would be bad ass. I know ill never tow with the truck or really haul anything more than a case of beer and some lawn chairs. So its probably really not all that practical but it would be pretty awesome. Then i already have everything else for the T19 so id be good to go there. Hmmmm i think i have some deciding to do.

1952B3b23
02-05-2014, 09:24 AM
The M5R2 is holding up well, It took some abuse when my wife was learning to to drive a manual trans. We drove to 10 states in 2013.

We have a 1997 transmission out of a V6 F150. It slid into place, but, I did have to drill the metric bolt holes out to 3/8" (slightly bigger). The starter from my 1986 E350 chassis Wonder Bread truck bolted right up. I used the the clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel from the 4BT.

Make sure that the transmission that you but has the Late Windsor bellhousing pattern (Ford small block V8 & 300 CID straight 6 - and a couple years of Canadian built V6). The later "Modular" bellhousing transmissions are different - a 3 bolt starter and ??? other issues ???)

Thats good to know that it can take a little abuse, is your motor turned up any? I'll have to really pay attention to that then so if i do buy one ill get the right one. If i do go the M5R2 route ill have to get your guys opinion on the piece before i buy, i really am not familiar with Ford stuff, more a mopar guy.

Thanks for the info,

-Chris

1952B3b23
02-05-2014, 09:27 AM
Sounds good, Chris, I'm sure it will all work out fine in the end!

I think so too Jim. I just wish i had seen this coming earlier on so i could have the parts ready since i have the time to work on the truck now. Oh well this is my first motor swap so im learning a lot as i go plus i have a bunch more stuff to keep me busy on the truck while i decide/get the parts i need.

-Chris

Russ McLean
02-05-2014, 09:35 AM
Thats good to know that it can take a little abuse, is your motor turned up any?

It has a 3,400 governor spring, a small intercooler and an "advance-by-ear" from a Cummins knowledgeable friend. For the most part, it is driven like the senior citizens that we are. The learning curve (3rd gear stalls) WAS violent enough to tear up a motor mount and transmission mount. I swapped heaver mounts. Mopar V8 to Mopar Cummins/V10 engine mounts and 1986 Ford F150 to 1997 Ford F150 trans mounts.

1952B3b23
02-05-2014, 01:32 PM
It has a 3,400 governor spring, a small intercooler and an "advance-by-ear" from a Cummins knowledgeable friend. For the most part, it is driven like the senior citizens that we are. The learning curve (3rd gear stalls) WAS violent enough to tear up a motor mount and transmission mount. I swapped heaver mounts. Mopar V8 to Mopar Cummins/V10 engine mounts and 1986 Ford F150 to 1997 Ford F150 trans mounts.

Okay so you do have a little bit of a moded 4bt. I plan on using the motor mounts from the step van. They're fluid filled and should be HD enough for what I'm looking to do.

-Chris


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1952B3b23
02-05-2014, 01:35 PM
So I contacted advanced adapters about a ranger OD. They have one to fit my T19, part number 760014M-27. It's about 1200 bucks and I can get it in 5-7 days upon order. I'm leaning towards doing this cause I think it'll be the fastest solution to this problem. The reason I want a fast solution is cause winter time = work on truck time. Once The weather gets nice and I start my second job again time to work on the truck is super rare. I think Im going to place my order sometime today.

-Chris


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Russ McLean
02-05-2014, 02:47 PM
So I contacted advanced adapters about a ranger OD. They have one to fit my T19, part number 760014M-27. It's about 1200 bucks and I can get it in 5-7 days upon order...

Go for it, probably a better option than buying an unknown condition trans from a junk yard.

p.s. I escaped North Adams, MA in 1961.

1952B3b23
02-05-2014, 02:58 PM
Go for it, probably a better option than buying an unknown condition trans from a junk yard.

p.s. I escaped North Adams, MA in 1961.

Yea that's what I'm thinking too. It'll give me more flexibility with being able to split each gear also good mpg. It should also help keep my build on track, time wise anyway.

Haha that's funny you say that, there ain't much in north Adams. Did some road construction work up there before. I live near Springfield been here my whole life. Where are you now?

-Chris


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1952B3b23
02-05-2014, 03:20 PM
Just placed the order for the ranger OD. Should be here the week of the 17th of this month. I'm excited to try this thing out.

-Chris


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ky-donzi
02-05-2014, 04:56 PM
Cool!

You are going to have all the "cool factors" covered.. Vintage truck ...check. Diesel...check. Twin sticks....check...

. Only thing missing would be some old scrip on the doors ... Like "xxxxx brother welding service dial RA1-4567"

damarble
02-05-2014, 05:03 PM
I always thought Ranger ODs were more expensive than that. Definitely worth doing at that price.

1952B3b23
02-05-2014, 09:28 PM
Yea that's what I'm going for a bad ass old truck to cruise around in. I'm pretty excited for the ranger OD, I think it'll make the truck even more fun to drive. It was $1350 shipped to my door, ordered it direct from advanced adapters.

-Chris


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Russ McLean
02-05-2014, 10:04 PM
Answer both where are now and the door sign comments with one picture:

34434
I'm in the Nicksville section of Hereford, AZ. If we had tracks, i would be on the wrong side... I'm 7 miles from the Mexican border, South and west of Tombstone, AZ. I've been in this area since 1979, and in this doublewide since 1986. Came out here to work as a test engineer / software maintenance engineer.

1952B3b23
02-06-2014, 08:56 AM
Answer both where are now and the door sign comments with one picture:

34434
I'm in the Nicksville section of Hereford, AZ. If we had tracks, i would be on the wrong side... I'm 7 miles from the Mexican border, South and west of Tombstone, AZ. I've been in this area since 1979, and in this doublewide since 1986. Came out here to work as a test engineer / software maintenance engineer.

Haha i like the sign on the door. At least you escaped the New England cold and snow.

-Chris

Russ McLean
02-06-2014, 09:41 AM
Haha i like the sign on the door. At least you escaped the New England cold and snow.

-Chris
We are at 4,800 feet, at the foot of the Huachuca Mountains. We get just enough snow and cold to remind us to NEVER, EVER move back.;)

1952B3b23
02-06-2014, 10:05 AM
I've thought about moving to a warmer place but I'd rather some cold and snow than a lot of heat. Although it does get pretty toasty up here in the summer and sometimes the humidity is almost unbearable.

-Chris


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