: DD 4 Cyl Turbo



77gmcserria
06-26-2008, 02:40 PM
I am looking into swapping a Detroit Diesel 4cyl Turbo motor in to a 1974 F250 4x4 Divorced T-Case it currently has an auto C6 but I would swap it for a stick anyway. Know for the questions:

Which 4cyl Turbo DD motor is the best for this swap?

What would be the best manual trans?

How exactly is a DD mounted in vehicles?

What kind of wiring do you have to do?

As for towing not a lot of that.

Thanks

bigorangecntry07
06-26-2008, 03:24 PM
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1851

77gmcserria
06-26-2008, 05:30 PM
I have read that post.

I was woundering out of the 4cyl turbo DD motors which is best for my application? 4-53, 4-71, etc.

What would be the best manual trans for my application?


I have seen pics from Grigg3's album on web-shots, but is there a mount in the front of the motor?How exactly is a DD mounted in vehicles?

What kind of wiring do you have to do?

IHWillys
06-27-2008, 09:29 AM
4-53T. 4-71T is possible but extremely heavy for a pickup and very tall as well.

Transmission: From the very basic like using the GG 3-53 SM420 setup to anything SAE #2.

Mounts: front mount, side mounts, however you prefer.

Wiring: Wire up the starter and an alternator/generator. The engine does not require any electrical devices to operate.

Read the posts here about noise. Then consider that the quietest 53 series Detroit makes more noise than the loudest 4BT. Screaming Jimmy is a well earned nickname.

Check out DetroitDiesel on yahoo groups for 15K posts concerning 2-cycle Detroits with multiple small truck swaps discussed. http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DetroitDiesel/

Ken

Grigg
07-01-2008, 11:23 PM
To expand on some of Ken's answers:

4-53T for sure it's a tight enough squeeze, a 4-71 is huge for a 1 ton truck.

Most any transmission you would want will fit with the right parts.
I think the simplest is to use the SAE stuff, probably SAE#2 as it is very common, or possibly even #3, depending on what transmission you want.

Front motor mount like mine is just a grown up version of the mount on an old 6 cylinder Chevy, a rectangular rubber sandwich with two bolts that come in from underneath the cross member.
Industrial engines will likely have a different kind of mount, a large clamp looking casting that camps around a rubber bushing on a snout made around the crank shaft. This type can be used too, but I prefer the automotive type.

No electricity needed to run, or even start unless you have an electric starter. I have yet to put a battery in mine, and it runs and drives ( but not legal for the road).

Do you have your engine already?
What transmission do you want to use?

Gearing is the most important part of a successful diesel conversion. I have driven some poorly geared Detroit converted pickups, even all the way across the country, it's not much fun..

For your truck you should plan to run around 1800 rpm to 1850 rpm at cruising speed, be it 65, 75, or whatever you like to drive at.
I like this gear calculator, the last one on the page http://www.onlineconversion.com/bigger_tires.htm

Start planning your gears and ratios early, as they will be a big part in deciding transmission, axles/ratio, and tire size.

Grigg

77gmcserria
07-04-2008, 09:33 PM
No I don't have the engine or trans, I'm not stuck on a 4cyl but would like a detroit.
I would like to use the Road Ranger 10 speed.
I think the gear ratio is 4.10 but not 100%.

Grigg
07-05-2008, 08:49 AM
If you would like a Detroit, then the 4-53T is definitely the most bang for the buck in a 1 ton truck, considering both HP and ease of installation.

A 3-53T is another good option, but a tad on the small size for a 1 ton truck, although if you lower your expectations of power, speed, and hauling ability then it will do just fine.

If you want a Roadranger 10 speed then consider all these, both 9, 10, and 13 speeds, in overdrive and direct drive, probably in about this order of desirability:
RTO-6610
RTO-610
RTO-6613
RTO-613
RT-6610
RT-6609A
RT-610
RT-8609
RT-6613
Note that a 13 speed will weigh about 200lb more than the others, and the back section is pretty big. The "RT" stands for Roadranger Twin counter-shaft, and RTO is same but with Overdrive.
If you find a non overdrive version of the 10 or 13 speed then you can use this info to help convert to overdrive, cut and pasted from another message group:
OK this is all the info I have on the subject,
It looks like it is relatively simple to upgrade a non overdrive 6 or
66 series 10 or 13 speed Roadranger transmission to an overdrive one.

You will need to interchange the front two gears on each
counter-shaft.

You will also need a "kit" that includes the first two gears on the
main shaft and the sliding clutch.

The OD "kit" for an RT-610 transmission or 613 should be part number
K-1671, and cost about $618 as of 2-08.

The OD "kit" for an RT-6610 transmission or 6613 should be part
number K-2019, and cost about $482 as of 2-08.

You should also get a gasket kit for your model transmission.
You may or may not need a new input shaft, depending on what version
you already have. Chances are you need a new one either way, as the
splines on your old one are probably worn at the clutch disc...

To order these kits, or any other Eaton/Fuller transmission parts you
can probably get them from your local truck parts place... However I
would call Randall at Central Truck and Trailer in Hagerstown MD,
(301) 797-1995. He has been a great help in gathering this
information, you could help him out by buying parts from him, In
addition to being a great guy, he also has the best prices on Eaton
Fuller parts I could find, (as well as many other truck parts). He
can also ship parts wherever you may be.

The overdrive ratio on these transmissions is 0.80

I think you will need at least 3.73, probably better with 3.54, depends on tire size and expected use, run the numbers in the calculator link posted earlier.

Grigg

77gmcserria
07-05-2008, 10:08 AM
What indicates that the trans is an overdrive?

Grigg
07-05-2008, 10:23 AM
Start with the model number, RTO is overdrive, RT is non-overdrive.

Then confirm with he shift pattern. On a non overdrive it is a normal back and forth shifting.
The overdrive version 4th and 5th gears interchange positions in the shift pattern.

Overdrive version is like this:
R25
134

Direct is like this:
R24
135

This applies to 610, 6610, 613, and 6613 transmissions.

Grigg

77gmcserria
07-06-2008, 08:53 PM
How much diffrence in the speed, hp and hauling ability is there between the 4-53T and 3-53T? Would I use a diffrent trans combo with the the 3-53T? I'm not looking to haul any large pices of equipment, maybe a camper trailer.

Grigg
07-06-2008, 09:19 PM
HP, best case factory specs:
3-53T Silver, 140 HP at 2,500 rpm
4-53T Silver, 185 HP at 2,500 rpm (or a military 4-53T, non silver, 200 HP at 2800)

The speed should be the same empty, but add much weight and the 3-53T will slow down first.
I have not driven a 3-53T, so I can't give you a really good answer, but here are some guesses.
A 4-53T in a 6,000 lb truck will easily go 75 mph if geared properly. Add a 5,000 lb trailer and you are probably more comfortable at 65 MPH.
A 3-53T in same truck with same trailer may get along better at 55 mph, may not be able to hold 65 comfortably when towing.
Again, just guesses.

The Roadranger size wise is overkill for a 3-53, and almost so for the 4-53. However, if you will be working the 3-53 hard then the Roadranger will be much welcomed (bolts on just the same), as you have close shifts to make the best of the HP you have.
If you go with a 3-53T, and don't haul a bunch of stuff, then an OD 5 or 6 speed is probably a better choice, and save some weight too.

The Roadranger 610 or 6610 weighs 357 lb dry with no shifter, yoke, or clutch housing. Installed and ready to go figure about 425 lb, or a tad more.

Grigg

77gmcserria
07-07-2008, 09:14 AM
Is there a good 5 or 6 speed that will fit the SAE pattern?

IHWillys
07-07-2008, 10:56 AM
Spicer 3053A, IH T34, Clark 280VO, NP540(difficult to find OD version), Fuller FS5205C(IIRC) are all light/medium duty 5-speeds that have an SAE clutch housing available.

Ken

Grigg
07-07-2008, 12:40 PM
Also try a Fuller FSO-6406a and a FSO-8406a, both 6 speed overdrives, but perhaps still on the large side, although they are single countershaft transmissions. Can be found in some medium duty trucks, reasonably new ones.

The Clark Ken mentioned, the 280VO will be hard to find parts for. A friend of mine ran one for a while, and also had a few extras for parts, they all had the same bad parts, and new ones were not available. He swapped it out for a Spicer 12 speed when he ran out of options to keep the Clark running. I suppose if you find are able to find a good one it will be OK for a while, but don't think of it as a long term solution.

The Spicer 3053a that Ken listed first, as found behind many Multi-fuel engines in Deuce and a half military trucks is probably the cheapest and easy to find OD 5 speed, and plenty strong. The OD ratio is 0.8x, it's overdrive, but not a very aggressive one (does anyone remember what it is exactly?). They come with an SAE #3 clutch housing, and a #3 to #2 adapter ring as well. #2 and #3 being probably the most common flywheel housing sizes on 3-53 and 4-53 Detroits.

Grigg

77gmcserria
07-08-2008, 07:46 AM
What would be the best combination of trans, t-case and axle ratio to get the best fuel mileage?

Grigg
07-08-2008, 09:17 AM
Best fuel mileage?
As light as you can make it, so two wheel drive and no transfer case if possible.

Otherwise, probably a NV4500 5 speed with attached transfer case, from either GM or Dodge.

Then tall but skinny tires.

Axle ratio to work with the OD ratio and tire size to give you about 1,800 rpm at 60-65 mph, and only drive that fast. Calculate here: http://www.onlineconversion.com/bigger_tires.htm

So, just figuring, 32" tires, 0.75 OD ratio, 65 mph, and 1800 rpm gives you 3.54 axle ratio.
should give decent fuel mileage and decent performance, not geared to fast or slow. Overall weight is one of the next big factors in mileage after picking the proper gears.

Grigg

IHWillys
07-08-2008, 11:18 AM
I agree with Grigg. First determine the highest cruise speed you want to get the best mpg at. For me it's 60 mph. Then gear the rear to get that speed on the higher edge of the best efficiency rpm range of the engine with the top trans output ratio and tire size in mind. This leaves room in rpm to go faster when needed and minimizes loss of pulling power down low.

I would consider an alternative to using an OD transmission, allowing the DD versions of the aforementioned medium duty transmissions to be used(they're cheaper and are closer ratio than the OD versions).

Use a transfercase that has extra low gearing such as the 203/205 setup or one of the custom boxes on the market. This is, of course, only necessary if that gearing is needed offroad.

Match the cruise speed/engine/trans/tires/gearing except using 1 as the trans ratio vs .75. This will generally work with taller tire sizes so it does not suit all vehicles. Myself, I'm considering a truck that accomodates 38" tall tires..

60 mph/1:1 trans/38" tire/3.54 r/p results in 1878 rpm. I use the 60 mph figure for myself for multiple reasons, this may not be acceptible for you. For me, I would use this truck at interstate speeds perhaps a couple times a year and for only about 100 miles so gearing for that scenario is not called for(I know this from current usage). I can deal with the reduced mpg for those few short periods of time running 2300 rpm to go 75 mph. The vast majority of my time in this truck is at 60 mph or slower thus I gear for that. If my use changed and made me want my best efficiency at a higher speed, I could *bolt-in*(as in no modifications needed) an OD version of the DD trans I used. In my case I have T34(OD) and T35(DD) transmissions on hand.

Of course, there are the often mentioned Brown-Lipe auxiliary transmissions as an option. But as Grigg noted, more weight hurts mpg, and the wheelbase must be able to accomodate one.

Options, options, options... All with their own trade-offs and caveats. What works best for me probably won't match what works best for you.

Ken

Grigg
07-08-2008, 12:19 PM
I have geared my 48 Chevy truck with 4-53T just as ken is planning, for the same reasons, but with the addition of an OD for the occasional faster driving.
38" tires, 3.54 rear, and 0.80 OD ratio, for a 4-53T

I plan to run direct drive when loaded or pulling a trailer, 65 mph at 2,050 rpm, a good compromise of power and economy, at least that's the thought.

When empty I'll slip it into overdrive and run 70 or so at 1,750. I may find that this is geared to fast, but it should be close, I'll use OD when I can, and down shift as needed, hopefully this makes for good fuel economy. When I travel out west and want to drive faster the OD should be nice. My backup plan if I find it is really geared to fast all the time is to swap to 3.73 axle gears.

Whatever engine you have (assuming it is of reasonable size for the empty truck)to gear for best economy your cruising speed should be at or just above the RPM that the engine makes it's peak torque. For a turbocharged 53 series Detroit this is approximately 1,700-1,800 (lower for a Silver 53T).
As the weight of the vehicle increases you have to run more RPMs. Lugging the engine is bad for it and waste fuel, so you don't want to be geared to fast.

Grigg

77gmcserria
07-16-2008, 02:36 PM
Did Jacobs make a Jake Brake for the 4-53T?

Grigg
07-16-2008, 03:37 PM
Like these?
http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/2779/1490055866080251109S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1490055866080251109CiqbxV)

Yes, they fit any 53 series with 4 valves per cylinder, so 3-53, 4-53, 6V53, 8V53, turbo or not.
I have been told by my favorite Detroit parts place that they can still get new Jacobs model 53a Jake brake assemblies from Jacobs, but at a ridiculously high price.

New high aluminum valve covers can be bought from Detroit to fit the 3-53 and 6V53. But you are on your own for a valve cover or spacer for the 4 cylinder (or 8). Most often I see an aluminum cover stretched to fit the 4 cylinder, and I have only seen one other 4 cylinder riser like the one on my engine.

Grigg

77gmcserria
07-16-2008, 03:57 PM
Could you post a pic of the spacer? Could one be machined? What is it made of? Can I use a 4-53T that was from a hydro loader and has right hand rotation?

Thanks

Grigg
07-16-2008, 04:23 PM
It is already installed in the picture above.
here is a side view http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/50/50/0/97/50/484009750tYBurb_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1484009750080251109tYBurb)

I can take more if needed?

Note the oil line going in the side of it for the Jake brake. There is a way to install the oil line through an extra freeze plug hole in the head using original Detroit parts. I'll make this change in a few weeks when I have my blower off for a rebuild/update.

The spacer is made of cast iron, and I am sure one could be made of steel or aluminum. And the special screws could be made too.

The simplest way is to modify a valve cover, either aluminum or steel, to make it taller, about 1.5"
I don't remember how folks who stretch valve covers (or use a 3-53 tall cover) get the wire or wires in, as their is a place on the spacer for this too.

Grigg

77gmcserria
07-16-2008, 07:38 PM
Can I use a 4-53T that was from a hydro loader and has right hand rotation?

Grigg
07-16-2008, 07:52 PM
Probably
You would need a limiting speed governor, as it likely has a variable speed one now.

The governors are different depending on what side of the engine it is on, so you need one for the same side as your current one.

You may also need a different oil pan and pickup depending on what you put it in and room available. The industrial pans are usually one big sump, and you may need a front or rear sump..

Grigg

Dieselmech52
07-28-2008, 10:36 PM
Hello grigg. I guess your the screamin jimmie expert on the board. Just want to say your truck is amazing. I've only been in the diesel industry for about 4 years so my knowledge on the DD 2strokes are fairly limited but I fell in love with them the first time I heard one. They are a totally different breed than the diesels im use to working on. What transmission are you using? I just noticed that you are using a air starter so you must have some sort of air compressor. Does your tranny have a hi/lo range? And finally, the question Ive been pondering for a while, does the 4-53 have a place for a gear mounted air compressor?

I would really like to repower my 1ton ford with a detroit so I'm just planning everything out in my head. Would a 6v53t fit comfortably in a 1 ton or would the 4-53 be a better choice. My donor vehicle is a 2wd 1997 Ford crewcab dually currently with a worn out powerstroke. Hope you can share some of your knowledge with me.

CREEPING DEATH
07-29-2008, 05:00 AM
The Spicer 3053A is probably best for a X53 DD, the gear splits are right for the power band and the transmission can be had for cheap due to being military surplus. I declined one for $100 a couple of years ago because I had no place to put it!

CD

Grigg
07-30-2008, 08:52 PM
Hello grigg. I guess your the screamin jimmie expert on the board. Just want to say your truck is amazing. I've only been in the diesel industry for about 4 years so my knowledge on the DD 2strokes are fairly limited but I fell in love with them the first time I heard one. They are a totally different breed than the diesels im use to working on. What transmission are you using? I just noticed that you are using a air starter so you must have some sort of air compressor. Does your tranny have a hi/lo range? And finally, the question Ive been pondering for a while, does the 4-53 have a place for a gear mounted air compressor?

I would really like to repower my 1ton ford with a detroit so I'm just planning everything out in my head. Would a 6v53t fit comfortably in a 1 ton or would the 4-53 be a better choice. My donor vehicle is a 2wd 1997 Ford crewcab dually currently with a worn out powerstroke. Hope you can share some of your knowledge with me.

Thanks, I am having fun with it.. and every road trip I take without it is more encouragement to get it finished.

I am using a Roadranger RTO6610, it's a 10 speed overdrive with 5 on the stick and an air shifted high and low range, all together in one package. In low range shift 1-5, shift to high range, and go back through 1-5 (now 6-10).

Yes, I have a belt driven air compressor, for the air starter primarily, but also for the transmission and a few other little things, can also run tools and inflate tires if needed.
Yes, the 53 series Detroits can be equipped with a direct gear driven air compressor. It would be mounted on the back of the engine above the flywheel, you could even run two if you wanted... They fit the "accessory drives" which are the back of the cam shaft and balance shafts. One problem is most automotive bell housings are flat on the back, and don't have the accessory drives to save room behind the engine for the firewall. But SAE type bell housings like for industrial applications are extremely common and will have the accessory drives. However, the air compressor will end up in the dash of most vehicles, and why I went with the belt driven one on the side of the engine.

6V53 is very tight in a 1 ton, but I am seeing more and more of them these days. I bought a 61 Ford F350 with one swapped in it, and it was nice, but not much extra room in there, check out my webshots.

A friend of mine has a 2005 F250 with a 6V53T in it, he is just about done working the bugs out of it, and he really likes the truck. He gave me a ride recently, and I was impressed, powerful and quite, even has Jake brakes and a 6 speed Allison OD transmission..
That swap was a lot of work, and I would not want to work on the engine, as it is almost all under the cowl and hard to get to.

The 4-53T is a much more reasonable swap for a 1 ton pickup, but will have less performance than the PS. A 6V53 is quite heavy, almost more than a 1 ton front axle wants to tote around, but manageable.
Consider your needs, abilities, and level of frustration you will put up with, then decide on the 4 or 6 53.

Grigg