: Isuzu 4BD2T or 4HE1



Michael Osoba
09-10-2008, 09:44 AM
Hey guys. I'm new here, but have been around on the IH8MUD forums for a couple of years. I have recently undertaken, or am attempting to undertake, the project of making an adapter for the 4BD2T to make it fit the A440 Transmission that is in my 1992 Toyota Landcruiser.

However, I have reached a point of indecision as far as what to do and I would like you guys to nitpick my reasonings apart. I have two options...

1- I can continue work on the adapter for the 4BD2T-A440. In addition to designing it and getting it made up, I would have to figure out how to get the torque converter mounted up, and make sure all the subsequent parts that connect to the torque converter would come out right. That would mean I would probably need a custom torque converter and stuff. Plus probably rebuild my transmission, etc.

2- I could take a 4HE1, which uses an Aisin AW450 transmission. This transmission is a close relative to, and in fact uses the same case as the Aisin 440 already in my vehicle, so the transmission would bolt in existing mounts. I would need to swap the output shaft from my A440, into the AW450 which some say is doable, and would allow it to mate to my transfer case.

Facts: Isuzu 4HE1 is electronically controlled. How much? I don't know, some say only to turn on check engine light and modify fuel input at high temps so I don't know how complicated it would be to transplant. Also, the AW450 is electronically controlled. I don't know how to put it in and make it work since my A440 is hydraulic.

Dimensions: 4BD2T- 813H X 660W X 810L and 340 Kg.
4HE1- 833.3H X 699.8W X 1181L and 365 Kg.

So...based on what would work best for this particular set of circumstances, I want you guys to give me any comments, info, criticism, etc. Thank you, Michael.:)

carcrafter22
09-10-2008, 02:52 PM
I would get a hold of the wiring diagrams for the 4he to see just how complicated it is or just wait and someone here will probably tell you.

I would just machine the adapter if it was me. I dont think it would be that hard to get one made up. Just measure everything twice and have it cut once to save on cost and all will go well.

Michael Osoba
09-10-2008, 11:22 PM
Carcrafter, I know what you mean about the adapter. I can draw that up no problem, but knowing exactly what needs to be done with the torque converter and all other pertinent parts is not something I really have experience with.

Michael Osoba
09-11-2008, 09:12 AM
Hey guys, some more info or the 4HE1. I haven't had time to wade through it all yet, many pages, but perhaps it will hold the answer to the question of how complicated the electronics on the engine are. Anyway...here it is http://lilaw.info/images/Manuals/LG4H-WE-9691.pdf

astr
09-11-2008, 11:03 AM
Hey guys, some more info or the 4HE1. I haven't had time to wade through it all yet, many pages, but perhaps it will hold the answer to the question of how complicated the electronics on the engine are. Anyway...here it is http://lilaw.info/images/Manuals/LG4H-WE-9691.pdf

If you want factory manuals, engine transmission, wiring, etc. go to http://forums.bauchan.org/portal/downloads.php There is a complete set of manuals for the newer (4HE1) NPR trucks. (And yes, I'm the same astr on MUD)

Michael Osoba
09-11-2008, 11:29 AM
Sounds good. Was it you who, in the 4BD2T thread, talked about having an A440 and AW450 that you were going to swap the output shaft out on? If so, did you find out if that was doable in such a way as to make the AW450 the HF2A TC?

astr
09-11-2008, 04:43 PM
Sounds good. Was it you who, in the 4BD2T thread, talked about having an A440 and AW450 that you were going to swap the output shaft out on? If so, did you find out if that was doable in such a way as to make the AW450 the HF2A TC?
Yes, I talked about it but I haven't tried it yet. I've got an AW450 and "parts" FJ62 with the A440F but can't seem to find the time to pull the A440F and do a side-by-side comparison.

Michael Osoba
09-11-2008, 05:47 PM
I understand being short on time. I was under the impression that the cases were the same between the 440 and the 450. Can anyone confirm that? I think that the consensus was that the output shaft needed to be swapped from the 440 into the 450 and that is would bolt not only to the stock transmission location, but also the TC. Hopefully thats all true. :)

astr
09-11-2008, 09:02 PM
I've followed this issue right from the begining and contributed to some of the speculation. To the best of my knowledge, no one on this forum or on IH8MUD has actually disassembled an AW450 and compared the component to those of an A440F. This is a perfect example of if enough people speculate on a subject it has a tendency to be viewed as fact!

I hope someday that the compatability between the two transmissions is proven to exist but at this point it is strictly conjecture and until someone actually goes through the physical comparison, it will remain just conjecture.

rayjon
10-04-2008, 05:04 PM
I am interested in this swap with the 4he1.... because the motor in my 93 fj80 is getting tired and will need replacement soon...

ASTR have you pulled the aw540 down to get the shaft out ???

I really want to know if this will work before I buy a box van for the motor and trans....

astr
10-05-2008, 03:35 PM
I am interested in this swap with the 4he1.... because the motor in my 93 fj80 is getting tired and will need replacement soon...

ASTR have you pulled the aw540 down to get the shaft out ???

I really want to know if this will work before I buy a box van for the motor and trans....

I haven't pulled the A440F yet (this will be the donor for the output shaft for the AW450) but I did take a major step in thhat direction. I just bought a wrecked 2003 NPR with a good running 4HE1, AW450 tranny and a pto to boot. I guess I'm now commited to follow through on trying to build the hybrid AW450/A440F transmission.

The NPR had less than 90K miles on it when it was wrecked. I just finished replacing the radiator and intercooler which were trashed in the wreck, got it running and did a compression check: 500# on all 4 cylinders! bounce bounce. I've got a couple more things to do to it before it is driveable like fix the brakes and remount the steering box. I think I will use the NPR as my test bed. It will be easier to try out the hybrid transmission in the NPR than the FJ62 as I the engine is already mounted and runable. The NPR is just a chassis with a busted up cab that will never be street legal but I can run it up and down the private road next to the office.

47Ford - 1.5Ton
10-05-2008, 07:52 PM
Your NPR have a 33 Gallon side mounted tank on it? If so I'll take it off your hand$ ?

love-horsepower
10-05-2008, 11:12 PM
good luck on the swap let me know how you over come the starter on the trans of the isuzu trans it would be where most throttle pedals are inside the cockpit.

Dougal
10-06-2008, 01:00 AM
Your NPR have a 33 Gallon side mounted tank on it? If so I'll take it off your hand$ ?


Why not just put that in your sig line?:D

astr
10-06-2008, 11:52 AM
Your NPR have a 33 Gallon side mounted tank on it? If so I'll take it off your hand$ ?

Sorry - has a between the rails rectangular tank. There is a slim chance that I may be able to use it as a large capacilty replacement tank for the FJ62.


good luck on the swap let me know how you over come the starter on the trans of the isuzu trans it would be where most throttle pedals are inside the cockpit.

The starter position is definitely going to be a problem. How much, I don't know for sure. The starter is located parallel to the transmission body, about the same height as the main body of the transmission, extends back about 5" past the bell housing/transmission body junction and adds about 8" to the width right where the gas pedal is located. Assuming that a hybrid transmission can be built, I see the starter location as the next biggest obstacle.

nexxussian
10-07-2008, 02:57 AM
Sorry - has a between the rails rectangular tank. There is a slim chance that I may be able to use it as a large capacilty replacement tank for the FJ62.

Any idea what the capacity is for that tank?

astr
10-07-2008, 09:15 AM
Any idea what the capacity is for that tank?The dimensions are 24" w x 20" long x 17" tall so I would say it has a useful capacity of 33 gallons.

nexxussian
10-07-2008, 06:38 PM
Thank you.

Michael Osoba
10-20-2008, 01:48 PM
Hey ASTR. Thats a good deal. Congrats! What about just tying the 4HE1 to your A440? Could the torque converter from the AW450 be used? And mate that to A440?

astr
10-20-2008, 02:43 PM
Hey ASTR. Thats a good deal. Congrats! What about just tying the 4HE1 to your A440? Could the torque converter from the AW450 be used? And mate that to A440?

Probably the simplest would be to use the torque converter and bell housing from the AW450 on the A440F body. I'm pretty sure that the bell housing will bolt up but, if IIRC, the transmission input shafts are different. If the input shafts are indeed different, there is a possibility that the pump and input shaft from the AW450 could be swapped into the A440F. Scenario 1 would be the simplest and could be done without pulling the A440F from the truck. Scenario 2 would be a bit more involved but possibly could also be done with the transmission still in the truck (engine removed of course). In either case you end up with an A440F behind the engine, probably not an ideal match for the torque characteristics of the 4HE1TC. You might be able to beef up the A440F with Rodney's Extreme Valve Body but why not just use the AW450 entirely and just swap the output shaft from the A440F to allow you to bolt the TLC split T-case to it.

The AW450, although electronically-controlled, is already matched to the 4HE1TC's torque characteristics. My guess is that is also designed and programmed for max reliability since it is used in trucks that can exceed 18,000# GVW whereas the A440F is programmed for softer, more comfortable shifts.

As Iíve stated before, this is all speculation - a house of cards whose very foundation is in question. Except for the time, I have everything that I need to get some answers to these questions.

Michael Osoba
10-21-2008, 12:48 AM
Ha ha. Time...a priceless commodity. Well, whatever route you go, hopefully it works out. Myself, I have been looking into not only Rodneys extreme valve body, but an entirely rebuilt A440. He ramps up the internals, plus new valve body, and an entirely reengineered Torque converter that could be matched to the 4HE1's needs. I have a query into him on wether or not one of these rebuilt trannys would be ideal behind the 4HE1's 175 hp, and 350 ft/lbs of torque. I haven't heard back yet, but they said to expect up to two weeks before an answer. We'll see what he has to say. If you do get the output shaft swapped successfully that would probably be the best route to follow. Keep us posted!! Looking forward to your (hopeful) success. :)

love-horsepower
10-26-2008, 12:35 AM
to adapt a 4hei i think the easiest way would be remakeke the rear cam cover and take the powersteering hole and make a starter that would go in that hole but i havent taken one apart and find otf it is possible or feasable. rod

astr
10-26-2008, 10:15 AM
to adapt a 4hei i think the easiest way would be remakeke the rear cam cover and take the powersteering hole and make a starter that would go in that hole but i havent taken one apart and find otf it is possible or feasable. rod
Good idea! It may also be possible to put a ring gear/flex plate on the front of the engine and move the starter forward. A lttle unorthodox but it might work. Before I start playing with relocating the starter, I need to resolve the transmission isuue. If the transmission issue can be solved, the next step is to verify the extent of the starter interference.

Another possibility is to use the pto as a way to start the engine. I haven't verified it but it appears that the pto gear is always coupled to the engine. They use a clutch pack within the pto to engage and disengage the pto.

love-horsepower
10-26-2008, 12:58 PM
all of the gear train is at the rear of these motors and the power steering is driven facing toward the back of the engine like 4bd1 and 2's starters are and you might have to hve a sprag drive i.e. one way bearing on the starter drive that would always turn when the engine is running so as not to have an enguagement problem wit trying to mesh or drive the cam gears as that is what the starter will be turning. if that could be done i would love to have one or the newer 5.2 for the power. if i ever get a junk one to play with im sure i could come up w/some thing to make it work. the computor is stand alone to run the engine i have a friend that works at an isuzu shop and i had him un plug things on a customers truck while in for service i.e. trans and chassis computor it threw a code but engine funtion was normal then he cleared the code . the injectors have an inverter drive and fire w/110 volt a/c so you will have to use a factory computor. rod

astr
10-26-2008, 02:22 PM
all of the gear train is at the rear of these motors and the power steering is driven facing toward the back of the engine like 4bd1 and 2's starters are and you might have to hve a sprag drive i.e. one way bearing on the starter drive that would always turn when the engine is running so as not to have an enguagement problem wit trying to mesh or drive the cam gears as that is what the starter will be turning. if that could be done i would love to have one or the newer 5.2 for the power. if i ever get a junk one to play with im sure i could come up w/some thing to make it work. the computor is stand alone to run the engine i have a friend that works at an isuzu shop and i had him un plug things on a customers truck while in for service i.e. trans and chassis computor it threw a code but engine funtion was normal then he cleared the code . the injectors have an inverter drive and fire w/110 volt a/c so you will have to use a factory computor. rod
Some of the aircraft starters use a one-way clutch so that the starter can drive the engine but the engine can't drive the starter. Something like that might work.

I may be wrong but the 5.2 (4HK1) uses a common fuel rail injection so each injector is electronically activated. This would imply that you need the computer for it to run. But why not just use the computer that comes with the engine. We've all gotten used to computer controlled fuel injection on gassers, so why not diesels? Ultimately, its a simpler system than the mechanical injection pumps that we all know and love.

Another alternative for the 4HK1 is to use the IP from the 4HE1, if you could make the 4HE1 injectors fit the 4HK1 head. The two heads are definitely different as the 4HE1 has two valves per cylinder whereas the 4HK1 has four valves per cylinder but it might be possible to swap injectors. I think the pump drives on both engines are the same.

Michael Osoba
10-26-2008, 05:46 PM
Wow, this thread is moving along. YOu guys are obviously more experienced than me mechanically, thanks for spreading your brainstorming around. : ).

bush65
10-27-2008, 01:53 AM
Some of the aircraft starters use a one-way clutch so that the starter can drive the engine but the engine can't drive the starter. Something like that might work.

I may be wrong but the 5.2 (4HK1) uses a common fuel rail injection so each injector is electronically activated. This would imply that you need the computer for it to run. But why not just use the computer that comes with the engine. We've all gotten used to computer controlled fuel injection on gassers, so why not diesels? Ultimately, its a simpler system than the mechanical injection pumps that we all know and love.

Another alternative for the 4HK1 is to use the IP from the 4HE1, if you could make the 4HE1 injectors fit the 4HK1 head. The two heads are definitely different as the 4HE1 has two valves per cylinder whereas the 4HK1 has four valves per cylinder but it might be possible to swap injectors. I think the pump drives on both engines are the same.
Even if the mechanical injectors would fit the head, their spray pattern would be wrong.

The distance from the injector nozzle holes, to the bowl in the piston is critical - the biggest advantage of the 4 valve heads is that it allows the injector nozzle to be inline with the center of the piston bowl. The symmetry of the spray from the multiple nozzle holes allows for better vaporisation/efficiency.

astr
10-27-2008, 08:47 AM
Even if the mechanical injectors would fit the head, their spray pattern would be wrong.

The distance from the injector nozzle holes, to the bowl in the piston is critical - the biggest advantage of the 4 valve heads is that it allows the injector nozzle to be inline with the center of the piston bowl. The symmetry of the spray from the multiple nozzle holes allows for better vaporisation/efficiency.

So much for that idea!