: Bigger cam anyone?



beck
04-17-2007, 01:59 PM
Is anyone playing with high performance cams in their 4bt? They are available in regrinds for about $450. That seems kind of expensive compared to my gasser small block chevy cams. I guess there isn't the big market so there in no mass production of them. The cams are available in a couple different grinds I think. The lowest upgrade is supposed to really boost low rpm torque and drive the turbo harder.

kaptar
04-17-2007, 03:46 PM
Maybe its the material they are made from. The shop I bought my 4BT from said I didn't have to worry about breaking in the cam and lifters. Sounded strange but maybe its better material than the gassers?

Dougal
04-18-2007, 01:06 AM
Is anyone playing with high performance cams in their 4bt? They are available in regrinds for about $450. That seems kind of expensive compared to my gasser small block chevy cams. I guess there isn't the big market so there in no mass production of them. The cams are available in a couple different grinds I think. The lowest upgrade is supposed to really boost low rpm torque and drive the turbo harder.

I'm wondering if "driving the turbo harder" means they're opening the exhaust valves sooner.
Robbing the pistons of a little energy and hurting efficiency for the expense of boost.

If so, it'd be a good tradeoff for some.

beck
04-18-2007, 01:37 PM
I don't know where the turbo push comes from but they said the fuel ecomomy would probably improve. Of coures they want to sell the cams.

CrewCab59
04-18-2007, 01:48 PM
I swaped out the cam on my 6bt and there is a big difference,just by looking at them.

Things that helped were
lowered EGT by 200*
1-2 more MPG
spread out torque range
it also changed the sound as well.

That would make a big change in the 4bt,depends on what your plans or mods that you have as well.

Thanks
CrewCab59

57 napco
04-18-2007, 11:29 PM
What cam did you go with. My timing cover leaks bad between the block and cover, I have to pull the cam out to reseal. I figure why notdDrop in a new cam.

57 napco
04-18-2007, 11:31 PM
Did the cam hurt bottom end torque under 1500rpm?

Dougal
04-19-2007, 12:54 AM
I swaped out the cam on my 6bt and there is a big difference,just by looking at them.

Things that helped were
lowered EGT by 200*
1-2 more MPG
spread out torque range
it also changed the sound as well.

That would make a big change in the 4bt,depends on what your plans or mods that you have as well.

Thanks
CrewCab59

So what were the differences between the two cams?

CrewCab59
04-19-2007, 07:09 AM
57 napco

At the time PDR only had one replacment cam , it was also a gift from my wife .


Thanks
CrewCab59

57 napco

I rpm under @1500 no ,after that it was spread to mid rpms.

Thanks
CrewCab59

CrewCab59
04-19-2007, 07:13 AM
Dougal,

The difference was the shape of the lobes and the offset of them or relationship of the lobes.

Thanks
CrewCab59

beck
04-19-2007, 01:03 PM
I don't know if it's "legal" to mention dealers names here. (Help me out leaders) If they say it's OK I'll post the supplier even the regrinder if needed. I don't have any connections (financial or oterwise) with them. For $450 I'll try the stock one in the motor for startup at least. It sure would be easier to change before the motor is installed though.

toolmanoffroad
04-19-2007, 01:11 PM
If ya cant post it, hit me up with a IM with the info. I am interested in a new bigger bumpstick. thanks, Aaron

BobS
04-19-2007, 01:29 PM
I don't know if it's "legal" to mention dealers names here. (Help me out leaders) If they say it's OK I'll post the supplier even the regrinder if needed. I don't have any connections (financial or oterwise) with them. For $450 I'll try the stock one in the motor for startup at least. It sure would be easier to change before the motor is installed though.

I think it's ok to say "I plan on buying one from XXXXX for around XXX dollars" or "I bought one from XXXXX last year for XXX Dollars" but is improper if you are a reseller or manufacturing a product and say "I can sell those to you for XXX dollars" unless you are listed as a vendor. I always let Dieselcruiserhead sort out this particular issue.

beck
04-19-2007, 09:42 PM
OK here's the scoop. (I do not sell these, make these, or profit in any way.)
Scheid Diesel (shops in central IL and IN) will have your cam reground. I don't have any speicifics. They are on the net. The actual grinding is done by another shop in central IL that specializes in pulling tractors. The machine company will not sell the cams direct. Scheid owns the master and all rights to the cams. Scheid also specializes in pulling tractors and trucks. They are into really big turbos (2 and 3 stages). Anyone ready for 150 psi boost? I got my information from Scheid's and the owner of the machine shop that does the grinding. If anyone tries this let us know how it turns out. If it doesn't work don't blame me, please.........

dilbert
04-20-2007, 06:26 PM
I personally know Les from schied diesel in Lafayette, Great guy and he really know's his stuff.

bcowanwheels
04-20-2007, 10:25 PM
why dont you,all just buy the genuine cummins hi output cam ???????
bob

beck
04-20-2007, 10:53 PM
why dont you,all just buy the genuine cummins hi output cam ???????
bob

I didn't know there was such a thing. Like I said before, I'm diesel stupid but trying to learn. This was my lesson of the day. Do you know how much hp/torque is it worth?

tndonor
04-21-2007, 04:43 AM
genuine cummins= lottery winning prices

independent shops= prices that dont require financing

bcowanwheels
04-21-2007, 06:26 PM
Genuine = Last Life Of Engine
Aftermarket = Get What You Pay For

tndonor
04-21-2007, 09:25 PM
true you get what you pay for. If it were some Ebay internet basement operation or a gasser shop saying them can do a diesel cam cause they do gas ones, there would be no questions.

We are talking reputable shops like Scheids and Piers and others who have proven themselves. Take a governor spring kit.......not Cummins and they work just fine. I think the independents prevail here.

bcowanwheels
04-21-2007, 11:42 PM
where do you think they get the gov springs from ?????

tndonor
04-22-2007, 11:05 AM
Some are Cummins...not all. Last I checked they are not in the tractor pullin business. Anyway......just saying there are quality parts that are nit Cummins

mooktank
04-22-2007, 05:41 PM
If a shop knows how to grind a good cam, why not use it? Who cares if it isn't genuine Cummins.

bcowanwheels
04-22-2007, 07:53 PM
a reground cam isnt as strong as a non-reground cam . factory cams can go to 250 hp in marine engines isnt that enough cam for ya ?

Dougal
04-23-2007, 12:30 AM
a reground cam isnt as strong as a non-reground cam . factory cams can go to 250 hp in marine engines isnt that enough cam for ya ?

No-one has suggested regrinding their existing cams.

CrewCab59
04-23-2007, 09:04 AM
a reground cam isnt as strong as a non-reground cam . factory cams can go to 250 hp in marine engines isnt that enough cam for ya ?

They take a Cam blank and then they grind it down to what ever set up that you need.

I don't thing that a cam in a marine set would work there not made to run long time,also just because it's 250hp doesn't mean that it will work.

Diesel shop that we are talking about they know there stuff .
Cummins has great stuff in stock form but once you leave the stock setting you have to look at the pro's that do this for a living ,and they know what works and what doesn't !!

Thanks
CrewCab59

bcowanwheels
04-23-2007, 10:06 AM
all those aftermarket cams are import and the ones that arnt are re-grounds

dieselcruiserhead
04-23-2007, 11:08 AM
I think it's ok to say "I plan on buying one from XXXXX for around XXX dollars" or "I bought one from XXXXX last year for XXX Dollars" but is improper if you are a reseller or manufacturing a product and say "I can sell those to you for XXX dollars" unless you are listed as a vendor. I always let Dieselcruiserhead sort out this particular issue.



yeah totally cool.. Businesses or people using the site to earn income by selling products, services at a greater level than people who randomly participate in classifieds, have to have the star. Other than that no rules.. Cheers, Andre

CrewCab59
04-23-2007, 11:56 AM
all those aftermarket cams are import and the ones that arnt are re-grounds

I want to see your proof on paper !!!!!!!!

Thanks
CrewCab59

Dougal
04-23-2007, 07:01 PM
all those aftermarket cams are import

What is the problem with imports?

tndonor
04-23-2007, 07:32 PM
Here is the trouble with the "import" logoic". For example a CUMMINS product made in the Darlington plant in ENGLAND......that is an import but it is a Cummins product. By the same logic, those cummins products are inferior. I would agree and I think most do that some snad cast product from the desert of anywhere are not good choices. These "imports" are from companies who do not make their living on Diesels.

Im sitting this one out....spoke my peace

beck
04-23-2007, 09:02 PM
The following is all in the I THINK catagory. Not for certain.
The ones from Scheid are reground. I believe you have to supply your old cam for exchange. That means the base circle is reduced durring regrind. That is the only way they can get enough material to do their lift/duration changes. I wouldn't expect they would weld or metalize them to keep the same base circle. If the base circle has been reduced it is slightly weaker than a stock cam. At our power output I don't think it is weak enough to cause any concerns. I've been playing with aftermarket parts for Chevy V8s for years. Chevy has made some good parts and some bad. The aftermarket has done a pretty good job with their parts for hopping up those motors. If I want big HP it isn't going to be with GM parts. They are not available from them. I think the same holds true with the Cummins. If you want stock performance the factory is hard to beat. If you are cranking it up (we are in the high performance section of this forum) I think you have to look outside the Cummins box. bcowanwheels, I think it's great that you are "true beige" Cummins. (I'm not a purist, my motors painted yellow) There is a lot to be said for your loyalty, but sometimes stock just doesn't offer what you are looking for. I think all of us realize that when you "turn it up" it isn't as reliable as stock.

bcowanwheels
04-23-2007, 10:20 PM
Have You Checked The Lift And Duration Of The Genuine Hi-output Cummins Cam ? Its Very Impressive.

beck
04-24-2007, 05:18 AM
Have You Checked The Lift And Duration Of The Genuine Hi-output Cummins Cam ? Its Very Impressive.

I don't know what the figures are for any of the cams, stock, hi-output Cummins, or any of the aftermarket. I was just putting the information here,with the opening post, that the aftermarket grinds were available. I see guys here that are wanting big numbers from their motors. The aftermarket gives them another option to look at. As I said in my opening comments, I'm sticking with the stock cam in the motor, at least for now. The price for the aftermarket cam is more than I want to spend. I don't know what the hi-output Cummins costs, but I expect more.

flyin71h
04-25-2007, 08:40 AM
For this particular application, I would personally be more comfortable using a reground OEM cam as opposed to a new aftermarket unit as the integrity and quality of the material used to manufacture the OEM blank would not be in question. Who knows what material, processes, and tolerances the aftermarket suppliers are using? The reduced base circle is also a non-issue, as this is common practice in the modern era of camshaft design. Especially considering the low valve spring pressures and rpm of a diesel compared to a gasser. Regardless of all that, Scheid Diesel is involved in just about every kind of diesel motorsports imaginable at some level or another, and have been and continue to be deeply involved in research and development. I cannot think they would stake their reputation on an inferior product of any kind, be it a camshaft or anything else. I have been doing business with their Effingham, Illinois facility for a number of years, and every experience has been overwhelmingly positive.

Charles
05-16-2007, 11:03 AM
Not Useful Information

Dougal
05-20-2007, 02:57 AM
When someone shows me a dyno curve of a sub 500rwhp B series that picks up more power from a cam swap than an additional 10lbs of boost from a more efficient turbo setup I will consider cams worth caring about in a diesel.

We can run over 100lbs of boost if we want.....you can't touch that with any level of vol efficiency through improved cam profiles.

Why not just keep the cam that's in the engine and blow the air right past the intake valve?

At some point a cam would be beneficial, but it seems increasing engine peak power rpm would be the first time that a little bit more efficiency through cam profile would prove useful.

On a scale of 1-10, increasing the amount of quality intake air charge would rank a 10 for improving engine power while cam would rank a .001....

Slightly changing the intake valve timing and perhaps lift at the possible cost of too much overlap among other issues, vs simply running twice as much air across the valve lift/duration you've already got with the stock OEM piece.

Just .02 worth. Cams are for naturally aspirated engines or those pushing HARD on the limits and shifting power production rpm, where a little more vol eff would be noticed.

You can put 2, 3, 4, 5......... times as much air past the valves with quality boost. Why worry with a cam in 99% of the cases?

Just a thought.


I think hell just froze over, I'm agreeing with Charles.

I don't see the point in putting a longer duration cam in a diesel to get better VE at higher rpm. For 98% of us the downsides at low rpm would cause more headaches than the extra power up top.

Most everyone on this board is gearing their rigs to run around or below 2000rpm, so the best mods maximise torque where it currently sits. Higher revs are mostly used as a step up into the next gear.

I'm mainly concerned about the effects of more valve overlap on a highly boosted engine. We're all running more exhaust backpressure than boost.

beck
05-20-2007, 08:15 AM
I think hell just froze over, I'm agreeing with Charles.

I don't see the point in putting a longer duration cam in a diesel to get better VE at higher rpm. For 98% of us the downsides at low rpm would cause more headaches than the extra power up top.

Most everyone on this board is gearing their rigs to run around or below 2000rpm, so the best mods maximise torque where it currently sits. Higher revs are mostly used as a step up into the next gear.

I'm mainly concerned about the effects of more valve overlap on a highly boosted engine. We're all running more exhaust backpressure than boost.

I believe the regrinds from Scheid are designed to make more torque down low. Scheid plays with the pulling trucks and tractors which make huge numbers at high rpm, but they are also into street diesels and towing. To my knowledge the 4bt hasn't been used in any pulling trucks. Scheid knows where the power band needs to be for different applications. The same profiles that work with the 6bt are probably used for the 4bt. The research has probably been done on the 6 and the results applied to the 4 as an afterthought.
I understand what you guys are saying with the increased boost being the easiest way to make more power. That all makes sense. I threw the cam information out there when I came across it. I don't know enough about it to say if it is a good bang for the buck or not. I'm still a new guy here and in the lerning process. I think the cam upgrade would be more attractive to someone that was in the rebuild process of their motor. While it was apart the cam could be changed. I wouldn't take one apart just to change the cam, but like I said before, "What do I know?"

Bman
06-09-2007, 05:40 AM
I've set a cam off to shied and can't wait to get it back. Then the problem will be to see who gets to try it in their truck. I've got to many trucks Im playing with for to many people and toooooo little time !

57 napco
06-11-2007, 09:41 AM
What is the cost?

jehu75
06-11-2007, 07:23 PM
I've set a cam off to shied and can't wait to get it back. Then the problem will be to see who gets to try it in their truck. I've got to many trucks Im playing with for to many people and toooooo little time !

If I come help, can it go in mine?? w/a cherry on top!!!

racinwayne58
06-23-2007, 06:27 AM
ScheId's Grinding Mine Now

66gaza
06-23-2007, 10:27 AM
ScheId's Grinding Mine Now

Wayne you MUST post some pics of your truck and a closer look at the compounds with all details. This request is a mandatory compliance with your 1st post.bounce bounce bounce bounce

Gaza

racinwayne58
06-23-2007, 04:22 PM
how do you post pics.thanks

racinwayne58
06-24-2007, 11:28 AM
http://www.fototime.com/users/racinwayne58@hotmail.com/DSL%20KOS%20Rangerhttp://www.fototime.com/users/racinwayne58@hotmail.com/DSL%20KOS%20Ranger

66gaza
06-24-2007, 03:27 PM
how do you post pics.thanks

Wayne, to post pics you will have to resize them or link a url to a site where they are hosted. when you reply to thread if you scroll down a bit and click on manage attachments. Very interesting, what turbos are you running? what power/torque are you aiming for?

Gaza

racinwayne58
06-24-2007, 03:45 PM
in the pictures the top turbo is a hy1c and the bottom is is a hx40/45 i dont no torgue hp is 300rwhp on fuel only 450 on nos with a 200 shot. i have the motor out getting bored adding some aries pistons, roller cam bearings,and 9/16 head studs. trying to get 550hp on fuel only

Dougal
06-25-2007, 12:57 AM
How much boost are you running?
I didn't see an intercooler, does the truck have one?

But the biggest question, who won?

racinwayne58
06-25-2007, 05:52 AM
Boost Levels 87psi Egt1340 No Intercooler The Ranger Of Course.

66gaza
06-25-2007, 01:05 PM
Boost Levels 87psi Egt1340 No Intercooler The Ranger Of Course.

WOW 87psi, how much boost will you run when you get the engine back with studs?:D

Gaza

racinwayne58
06-25-2007, 06:48 PM
i dont know. i have lowered compression ratio to 15 to 1 adding larger studs and bigger turbos. got the cam back today from scheid.

Charles
06-26-2007, 02:36 PM
Not Useful Information

racinwayne58
06-26-2007, 05:03 PM
i use nos. dont realy need a intercooler because i haul to the track most of the time. it does not really get hot i make a run and shut it down. when street driving i don't see high boost or egt.the compound turbos move so much air. i save the racing for the track.

Charles
06-27-2007, 08:38 PM
Not Useful Information

racinwayne58
06-29-2007, 06:02 AM
I Agree Cooler Air Makes More Power. Thats Why I Use The Nos.whats Your Dailey Driver???

Charles
06-29-2007, 11:08 PM
Not Useful Information

racinwayne58
07-13-2007, 06:19 PM
has anybody tried there reground cam yet?

Charles
07-14-2007, 09:34 PM
Not Useful Information

averagef250
07-24-2007, 09:46 PM
I'm pretty new to diesel camshaft theory. I've heard good things about reground cummins cams, yet see quite a bit of pointing towards better turbocharging as a more viable option.

I suppose the simple answer I would be looking for if I was considering a reprofiled cummins cam is would a cam change make a change in volumetric efficiency equating to increased power or fuel economy to justify the cost for a daily driver/tow rig? A few hundred dollar one time cost making a 1 MPG difference for the next quarter million miles would justify the expense.

I mean, if a guys doing a cummins swap odds are the engine's going to be kicking around the garage for a month or so unused, what's to gain by spending a few hundred bucks to have it done while you have the opportunity?

I haven't heard anyone say "Man I wish I hadn't had my cummins cam reground" yet.

dusty
07-24-2007, 11:41 PM
man there are a few times not where i entirely regretted the replacement cam in one of my 6bt's but that i regreted the dolar per hp gain of that modification. everytime the improvment was notable but the overall gain was not worth the $800+ of a cam and lifters in some instances with a billet cam it was $1500 and for what 20-30 hp on the dyno. the real net gain is in being able to move the operating range around to better suit where your turbo or in my case turbo's were tuned making the rig more streetable and better behaved but so did tuning in a set of twins.

dollar for dollar i wouldnt do it agian unless i was shooting for big hp numbers over 550hp in a 6bt over 300 hp in a 4bt

a 1-2 mpg gain a little less smoke and higher cylinder pressures....oh yeah think about valve springs, and o-rings if you go really big....

food for thought.

FYI do not run the marine cam in the 4bt or a 6bt both are total dogs in the low and mid range but at WOT the EGT's are in perfect harmonny.... Way back a marine cam was thought to be the holy grail after 1 4bt and 2 370hp 6bts it was determined that that was not the solution the operationg range was not condusive to variable rpm ranges.


I'll give props to scheid diesel, they had a great mild cam with much better lift and duration all while keeping the motor in a close to stock rpm range, so did formula 1 thought the formula 1 did net about 12 hp more than the scheid. a little more snap off the line broader operating range fell off still at 2500-3000 but thats wher eit was supposed to fall off. had a 4bt ground WAY back in 2000 was not all that impressed found that a little more fuel and a properly tuned turbo netted equal performance on a identically setup motor minus the cam.

Dougal
07-25-2007, 02:28 AM
a 1-2 mpg gain a little less smoke and higher cylinder pressures....oh yeah think about valve springs, and o-rings if you go really big....

This is what gets me curious.
The cummins engines are sold as industrial power units, where efficiency is a massive selling point (just behind reliability and well ahead of cost).
If it were possible to get an extra mpg (quite a big percentage increase) then there must have been a massive downside to prevent the cummins engineers from already doing it.

What is that downside?
Petrol engine cams are quite well documented, we've all seen the horrible idle and loss of low end from a high performance cam. But with diesels there's little to draw on.

Diesel Durango
07-25-2007, 06:01 AM
This is what gets me curious.
The cummins engines are sold as industrial power units, where efficiency is a massive selling point (just behind reliability and well ahead of cost).
If it were possible to get an extra mpg (quite a big percentage increase) then there must have been a massive downside to prevent the cummins engineers from already doing it.

What is that downside?
Petrol engine cams are quite well documented, we've all seen the horrible idle and loss of low end from a high performance cam. But with diesels there's little to draw on.

for the efficiency part, i believe the comparison to industrial power plants has the same flaw as the marine application. A generator is designed to run at constant rpm's for long periods of time, just like the boat. This would allow the manufacturer to pick an ideal cam profile for a set rpm range that is much narrower than a motor vehicle application. just my .02

dusty
07-25-2007, 11:27 AM
This is what gets me curious.
The cummins engines are sold as industrial power units, where efficiency is a massive selling point (just behind reliability and well ahead of cost).
If it were possible to get an extra mpg (quite a big percentage increase) then there must have been a massive downside to prevent the cummins engineers from already doing it.

What is that downside?
Petrol engine cams are quite well documented, we've all seen the horrible idle and loss of low end from a high performance cam. But with diesels there's little to draw on.



One agency: EPA.

One Restriction : EMISSIONS ;)

averagef250
07-25-2007, 11:56 AM
The emissions gremlins were in the back of my head thinking about cams too.

It seams to me OE's use cam profiles that are easy on valvetrain parts to get the most longevity from an engine.

I don't know if this is the case with the cummins, but it would seam to me the durability of an industrial diesel engine would be a slightly higher priority than it's efficiency to the engineers designing it. Lobes with steeper ramps and more lift increase the load on valve train parts, but at what cost really? Could a little more performance be squeezed from a cam with only a small sacrifice in longevity?

I don't have a clue here. I would just suspect cummins found a nice cam profile that worked for lots of different applications and used that in most of thier engines.

Dougal
07-25-2007, 04:41 PM
I don't know if this is the case with the cummins, but it would seam to me the durability of an industrial diesel engine would be a slightly higher priority than it's efficiency to the engineers designing it.

This is true, Caterpillar has the "durable but inefficient" thing down. Their 4L diesel uses about 15% more fuel than a 4BT to do the same job.
But for a customer choosing between two engines which will both do 10,000hrs between overhauls, the efficiency becomes a deal maker or breaker.

But when these engines were designed (and in many markets where they're still sold), emissions regulations do not apply. I don't think emissions are it.

Personally I'd like to see a dyno plot of an engine with a modified cam. I can easily imagine them improving the fuel consumption in some regions (esp high end), but I doubt they'd be able to improve on the best point which is around the 1700-2000rpm range.

sdstriper
07-26-2007, 08:52 PM
I'll throw this in for the heck of it. Supposedly Cummins has only three stock camshaft profiles for the 12v, non I/C, I/C and Marine. Each having slightly more intake and exhaust lift and duration. Even the non I/C "small cam" has been in the 500+ horsepower range.

CT-CUMMINS-BLAZER
08-25-2007, 02:10 PM
Cummins has a hotter version BTA in the marine division....the cam / & Injectors are different....the marine BTA =150hp stock.