: Zf 5-speed help



halfbreed
05-29-2007, 06:44 PM
I am ready to buy a 4bt and zf 5 speed what zf 5 speed do i get big block or small block and what adapters do i need for the 4bt diesel to a zf 5 speed and dana 20 http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/Spennyluv/getsome3002.jpg

52wrench
05-30-2007, 06:27 AM
You need a ZF-5 with the small blockpattern, you will also need the Cummins Ford flywheel housing to bolt up the ZF-5 if the 4BT comes with something else. Can't help you on the Dana 20, the ZF-5 4x4 will have the common Ford round 6 bolt pattern that bolts up to the tramsfer case.

Carl Donica
05-30-2007, 08:31 PM
You can also do the big block pattern with an adapter from fordcummins.com. Or make an adapter from cummins work with a little machine work. This is how I did it, fordcummins couldnt supply me with an adapter in a timely fashion. I already had the tranny/x-case so this was the no brainer thing to do. Except it took brains to get all the dimensions correct to make it fit. If you decide to go this way let me know and Ill guide you along.
Carl

1979 F-250 crew cab 4 x 4
4 bta with modified H1C
Cold air intake
ZF S-42 5 speed
Borg Warner 1356 x-case
Dana 60 rear
Dana 44 front
3.55 gears
255/85R16 tires (33.5x10.5)
Hydroboost steering and brakes
Custom 40 gal. fuel tank
Much more later

82fordtruck
06-10-2007, 09:27 PM
does anyone have trouble with the gas gear ratios? The gears are deeper and these engines have a small RPM window.

csft
06-11-2007, 04:18 AM
http://www.destroked.com/parts.shtml

Carl Donica
06-11-2007, 03:35 PM
The only problem I have with it is that I have some gear chatter 1300-1500rpm in 4th gear. Even this is not really a problem on level ground or downhill. Uphill or towing,(all onramps in texas are uphill), I take 3rd gear to 2500rpm and 4th will hit at 1600rpm, right in the meat of the torque.
Carl

1979 F-250 crew cab 4 x 4
4 bta with modified H1C
Cold air intake
ZF S5-42 5 speed
Borg Warner 1356 x-case
Dana 60 rear
Dana 44 front
3.55 gears
255/85R16 tires (33.5x10.5)
Hydroboost steering and brakes
Custom 40 gal. fuel tank
Much more later

82fordtruck
06-12-2007, 03:04 PM
On my ford with the 460 and zf5, a shift at 2400 RPM out of second puts me in third at 1300 RPM. I've pulled heavy loads with underpowered diesels before, and that's too low, you'll end up back in second climbing the hill.

The zf's have a dual mass flywheel from the factory. Using a regular flywheel causes gear chatter. It does not seem to be harmful, just annoying. The dual mass flywheels are expensive and fail much faster then the regular ones.

Preston
06-15-2007, 10:10 AM
Nice looking bronco Halfbreed!

Carl what kind of milage do you get?

I thought you could get a 4bt that was installed in a ford product and it will already have a plate on it that matches the small block ford or diesel bolt pattern?

Preston

82fordtruck
06-15-2007, 03:06 PM
you can, but the small block bolt pattern has only wide ratio gears. My concern would be when loaded you'd lose your torque and not be able to upshift if you didn't use the diesel ratio gears.

halfbreed
06-15-2007, 08:18 PM
you can, but the small block bolt pattern has only wide ratio gears. My concern would be when loaded you'd lose your torque and not be able to upshift if you didn't use the diesel ratio gears.
so the zf small block is not a good choice cause that is what i was going to do i will never be towing just street driving

82fordtruck
06-15-2007, 09:27 PM
I've had both transmissions, the narrow ratio in a diesel and a wide ratio in a gas.

I think you could get by with the wrong one for the application, but I think the right one will be smoother. As I said above, my truck goes from 2-3 and goes from 2400 to 1300 RPM. That's HUGE in a diesel, especially one that redlines at 2400. A 3k GSK would probably allievate the problem, but if you don't have a tranny I'd look for a diesel one and find a plate for it.

If you can't find what you need, send me an email. I bet I can make it for you. My problem is that I don't have an engine and tranny to fit it up.

mooktank
06-16-2007, 03:48 PM
Dudes,

The shifting on the ZF smallblock version isn't bad. Definitely get a 3200 spring in there.

broncobowsher
06-16-2007, 09:04 PM
BC Broncos sells an adapter to bolt the bronco Dana 20 to a ZF.
Advanced Adapters also sells it.

The Bronco stuff I know better then the diesel stuff, at least for now (still learning about the oil burners)

gpete
06-17-2007, 01:33 AM
I am ready to buy a 4bt and zf 5 speed what zf 5 speed do i get big block or small block and what adapters do i need for the 4bt diesel to a zf 5 speed and dana 20 http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b59/Spennyluv/getsome3002.jpgThe NP205 will bolt directly to the ZF 5 speed without $$$$ adapters BC broncos can help you with a cross member or what ever is needed that would be cheaper than the adapter. You metioned that the vehicle is mainly on the street using the np205 would not hurt you, only the people that go off road would worry about the gear ratio difference between the two transfer cases. The dana 20 has a lower ratio for off road which you are not using your vehicle for. If you ever decide to go off road later on, the money you saved from not buying the adapter to bolt your dana 20 can go towards the Atlas or the Stack aftermarket transfer cases. NP205 are very cheap around $100.

82fordtruck
06-17-2007, 07:49 AM
Is there something wrong with the BW 1356 case that comes behind the zf5?

DarylB
06-17-2007, 09:35 AM
Is there something wrong with the BW 1356 case that comes behind the zf5?

It's aluminum and chain driven vs Cast Iron & helical gears (NP205, D20). A lot of people dislike the chain output for offroad.

Paul(in NY)
06-17-2007, 10:16 AM
The NP205 will bolt directly to the ZF 5 speed without $$$$ adapters BC broncos can help you with a cross member or what ever is needed that would be cheaper than the adapter. You metioned that the vehicle is mainly on the street using the np205 would not hurt you, only the people that go off road would worry about the gear ratio difference between the two transfer cases. The dana 20 has a lower ratio for off road which you are not using your vehicle for. If you ever decide to go off road later on, the money you saved from not buying the adapter to bolt your dana 20 can go towards the Atlas or the Stack aftermarket transfer cases. NP205 are very cheap around $100.

Gpete;
I gota tell you, you have one beautiful truck. She is really sweet. In 1966, I bought the first Bronco that the dealer received. It was the full body, yellow and white with a 6 cyl. I guess it was a 300 cu in but thats to long ago to remember ha ha. My congratulations on your work.

Paul

gpete
06-17-2007, 01:13 PM
Is there something wrong with the BW 1356 case that comes behind the zf5?There is nothing wrong with the BW1356 i just did not think of that case at the time it is a good case as well

82fordtruck
06-17-2007, 05:34 PM
I didn't realize that gear driven boxes are even available. Anyway, I just figured that it came behind the zf5 and would be easy to fab up. You may need driveshafts modified, but probably will anyway.

As far as the gas vs diesel ratios, I'm sure that you can get away with using a gas one. But, since he hasn't bought one yet, why not get a diesel one? With the diesels I;ve driven, much more than a 500 RPM drop when shifting is too much. The power band of the cummins is relatively narrow, and proper gears are necessary to take advantage of this. The more power you have and the lighter the vehicle is the less this will matter.

halfbreed
06-17-2007, 11:04 PM
Gpete;
I gota tell you, you have one beautiful truck. She is really sweet. In 1966, I bought the first Bronco that the dealer received. It was the full body, yellow and white with a 6 cyl. I guess it was a 300 cu in but thats to long ago to remember ha ha. My congratulations on your work.

Paul
thanks man i really apreciate it i like it for a 17 year old it drops lots of panties my dad and i have been working on it for one year and i worked for it all my parents didnt pay a penny so that is a big acomplishment for me KNOW COMES THE 4bt Swap LOL

Cory Smith
06-22-2007, 01:27 PM
i like it for a 17 year old it drops lots of panties


Why, do your's get snagged climbing in?:happyfinger:

halfbreed
06-22-2007, 09:48 PM
Why, do your's get snagged climbing in?:happyfinger:

hhahahah good one man

Jimbo
06-23-2007, 01:41 PM
I've read this thread with great interest, as I'm planning a 4BT/ZF5 swap later this year.
I too, was concerned about using the small block ford tranny with it's wide ratio gear splits. I have a good friend who does nothing but trannies and differentials for a living, so I asked him if it were possible to install the diesel close ratio gear set into the wide ratio small block case. His answer was yes, and promptly built me one to prove his point. Now, all I need to find is a good running 4BT(preferably intercooled) with the ford adapter plate on it.
Hope this helps someone.
Jimbo

Paul(in NY)
06-23-2007, 02:00 PM
I've read this thread with great interest, as I'm planning a 4BT/ZF5 swap later this year.
I too, was concerned about using the small block ford tranny with it's wide ratio gear splits. I have a good friend who does nothing but trannies and differentials for a living, so I asked him if it were possible to install the diesel close ratio gear set into the wide ratio small block case. His answer was yes, and promptly built me one to prove his point. Now, all I need to find is a good running 4BT(preferably intercooled) with the ford adapter plate on it.
Hope this helps someone.
Jimbo

Now, thats great news. All I have to do is find a SB ZF and a Diesel Gear set.

Paul

COLOJEEPGUY2K
06-23-2007, 09:53 PM
Hey all new to the page. I am thinking of the same swap, ZF verse a NP435.
The ZF for the 5th gear or the NP for the bulletproofness, <----- yes it's one word hehe :rasta:

What do you all think?

halfbreed
06-24-2007, 01:00 AM
Hey all new to the page. I am thinking of the same swap, ZF verse a NP435.
The ZF for the 5th gear or the NP for the bulletproofness, <----- yes it's one word hehe :rasta:

What do you all think?

the zf is pretty bullit proof maybe not at bullitproof as the np435 but then again you do have a better gear ratio and the zf can handle ZF S547 from 1995 on ZF S542 was used from 1988-1994 the s547 can handle 470 foot pounds of torque and the s542 can handle 420 foot pounds of torque

NP 435 6.69 3.34 1.79 1.00
ZF 5.72 2.94 1.61 1.00 0.76

check out the gear ratio difference the np 435 is almost to short and low for a 4bt unless you want a wheelie machine or rockcrawler:idea: but with the zf you still have the low first gear and 4 more speeds with the np 435 youll never use that first gear and you only have 3 speeds id go with the np 435

patavery
07-16-2007, 12:00 PM
I have a yj with a zf from a 460 3/4 ton ford behind my 4bt.I made an adpt from 1/2 x6in plate .It inded up being 1 1/8 thick .That gave me the right thickness for the clutch .I used a dodge clutch a ford through out bearing.A pilot shaft bushing from ford cummins in montana.The transfercase was on the trans already so I used it.I am in colorado for the summer,so I have tested it out pretty well.No problems so far.373 gears are about right 70 on the highway is 2100 rpms..If anyone needs help with there convirsion you can call me at 225 405 5984 I am out of cell range but will call you back .

Pat avery

BobS
07-16-2007, 12:09 PM
Hey patavery,

Any pictures of your adapter available?

averagef250
07-16-2007, 12:18 PM
A good reason to not use the 1345/1356 T-case behind the ZF in an older truck is that they don't fit without a bit of cutting. The newer t-cases are wider and the frame needs notched to fit. In addition, the 1345 is a pile of junk and the 1356 can be hard to find a speedo hole since they were newer and mostly used after Ford stopped using a speedo cable. If you have a 1356 in good shape with speedo hole you might as well use it, but otherwise NP205 is the way to fly.

averagef250
07-16-2007, 12:31 PM
Another solution, especially if all your bronco will be is a driver/pavement queen is the Mazda/Ford M5R2. These things are very affordable and suprisingly tough. They are close ratio, shift great, have the small block bell and have the same dimensions as the S5-42, so if you do scatter it you can upgrade easily.

mooktank
07-16-2007, 08:15 PM
It's aluminum and chain driven vs Cast Iron & helical gears (NP205, D20). A lot of people dislike the chain output for offroad.

Actually I think it's magnesium...

Either way, it's too wide for a ranger so I went with a 205. If you want a 1356 for free come get it at my house.

Blueflame
07-28-2007, 06:37 PM
I've read this thread with great interest, as I'm planning a 4BT/ZF5 swap later this year.
I too, was concerned about using the small block ford tranny with it's wide ratio gear splits. I have a good friend who does nothing but trannies and differentials for a living, so I asked him if it were possible to install the diesel close ratio gear set into the wide ratio small block case. His answer was yes, and promptly built me one to prove his point. Now, all I need to find is a good running 4BT(preferably intercooled) with the ford adapter plate on it.
Hope this helps someone.
Jimbo

I have had a good ZF5 from a Ford diesel given to me and was planing on trying to install the gear set into a small block case. Is there any machine work or anything special your friend had to do to make this work? Any special small block case I need to look for?

52wrench
08-01-2007, 05:44 AM
As for the case, as long as its a small block pattern, that's all you need, as long as its either 2wd or 4wd depending what you need. The diesel gearset should go right in the SB case but you need to set the main and countershaft thrust clearance correctly, you need the Ford shop manual to rebuild the ZF's, there is a lot of heating and press work involved with special tools. I haven't rebuilt mine yet, just read the shop manual and got a special tool set off Ebay for $35.

DarylB
08-01-2007, 12:29 PM
Actually I think it's magnesium...

Either way, it's too wide for a ranger so I went with a 205. If you want a 1356 for free come get it at my house.

Would love to, but the fuel $$ negates the "free" part :( . If I was running a late model chain drive the BW1356 would be the way to go. If I keep my duramax and lift it eventually, it's getting a Lo-Max 3:1 case or a 205 with Lo-Max gears to replace the NV241.

RENESISFD
12-05-2010, 05:37 PM
I've read this thread with great interest, as I'm planning a 4BT/ZF5 swap later this year.
I too, was concerned about using the small block ford tranny with it's wide ratio gear splits. I have a good friend who does nothing but trannies and differentials for a living, so I asked him if it were possible to install the diesel close ratio gear set into the wide ratio small block case. His answer was yes, and promptly built me one to prove his point. Now, all I need to find is a good running 4BT(preferably intercooled) with the ford adapter plate on it.
Hope this helps someone.
Jimbo


I have had a good ZF5 from a Ford diesel given to me and was planing on trying to install the gear set into a small block case. Is there any machine work or anything special your friend had to do to make this work? Any special small block case I need to look for?


As for the case, as long as its a small block pattern, that's all you need, as long as its either 2wd or 4wd depending what you need. The diesel gearset should go right in the SB case but you need to set the main and countershaft thrust clearance correctly, you need the Ford shop manual to rebuild the ZF's, there is a lot of heating and press work involved with special tools. I haven't rebuilt mine yet, just read the shop manual and got a special tool set off Ebay for $35.

I wanted to bump this thread as I have run into a major problem using the diesel ratios in the small block case.

My problem is this.. The input shaft lengths are different when going from the big block to the small block case. The small block case is longer. Switching the shafts is easy but the number of teeth on the input shaft and consiquently the number of teeth on the counter shaft are different.

I counted the number of teeth on the shaft and thought that if I can just change the counter shaft gear with the matching small block input shaft my problem would be solved. Because the number of teeth are different I decided to calculate the change in finial drive ratio of the transmission. If I do this the gear ratios change so drasticaly that 5th gear is not an overdrive ratio it comes out to 1.07 instead of the .77 ratio of the diesel gear set.

My question is is there anybody that actually uses the diesel gears in the small block case? How did you do it with out messing up the ratios?

I have an excell sheet that shows the change in gear ratios I am talking about.



John

DieselSchlepper
12-05-2010, 06:15 PM
Months ago read about some shop that performs this operation. Where it is now I don't know - around here somewhere. We'll have to look for it.

RENESISFD
12-06-2010, 12:55 PM
This is a txt file showing a chart of the calculated zf ratios. I have an excell sheet that is organized but that is not a valid file extension.

Thanks for the reply DieselSchlepper, anybody else have any thoughts?

Thanks,


John

smogmonster
12-17-2010, 12:05 PM
if its any help most of the 6b series engine sive seen here in uk allready have a zf 5 speed but i have seen 6 speeds advertised
autos ar also available

Vanda
05-03-2012, 07:34 AM
Hi All,
Resurecting an old thread, I've just experienced a bad deal with what I thought was a reputable shop. I ordered and paid for a kit to bolt a small block ZF to cummins. They sent the adapter, starter spacer and starter, BUT didn't send the flywheel..... :/ after many calls and emails he will no longer talk with me or refund any money for parts not recieved.
I won't mention this shops name (unless I'm allowed too?) but for those that like to keep their hard earned cash in their pocket, it is located in Sandersville, Georgia.

Sssooo, I'm after some info on the flywheel mentioned in this thread as a stock cummins part. It sounds like what I'm after but I'm in Australia and parts for this swap are not as accessable as in the states. Does anyone out there have the part number of this flywheel? Is there another flywheel I could use? also clutch options would be great.

Had my motor for nearly 5 months now and am itching to get started so any info would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Wayne

PS. Is there anything in the USA like a small claims tribrunial that I can lodge a claim to "try" and reclaim some of my monetry loss?

redhedbronco
05-03-2012, 11:57 AM
Sorry for the misfortune Wayne. If you paid for a flywheel and didnt receive it file a claim with www.ic3.gov. Then send a copy(delete personal information) of filed complaint to the vendor. I've had to file a complaint before and this usually gets their head out of their ass quickly.


PS Give up the shops name to warn future potential buyers.

Vanda
05-05-2012, 12:03 AM
Thanks redhedbronco i'll certainly be filing a complaint.
The company was Avant Salvage/Deisel Depot owned by a father and son team. They were recomended to me by a company over here in OZ that had delt with them in the past for Chev Deisel stuff. I spoke to this local company again recently and now they are having the same trouble of not getting their parts either.:( I hope no one else gets done by them.

Many thanks
Wayne