4bt Reman vs. Rebuilt?
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Thread: 4bt Reman vs. Rebuilt?

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    Default 4bt Reman vs. Rebuilt?

    Found a fair deal on a Cummins reman. engine with TH400 bolted to it and was just wondering what the difference was between reman & rebuilt?

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    reman/rebuilt usually means the same thing.
    1994 Dodge Dakota Ext Cab 4x4. 4BTA 375hp and 720ft/lbs torque, 12.9 at 103mph 1/4.
    There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots

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    Quote Originally Posted by khaoskustoms View Post
    reman/rebuilt usually means the same thing.
    Maybe that's what some of the gangsters on EPay are promoting but not even close to what I was taught many many years ago. BTW, does anybody ever read any of the stickys?
    See:
    http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1388
    Last edited by BobS; 12-29-2009 at 11:23 AM.
    BobS

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    On E-pay a rebuilt or reman means spray the whole engine and tan and it's good to go. Anytime you find a " Reman or Rebuilt " with every part painted the same it's a hack job.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cummi...Q5fAccessories

    Here is what I'm talking about

    Read the info list.
    1. Bought a van with a reman engine.
    2. Has a fresh paint job ,green tape on Id tag ,the adapter plate would have markes where it was put on.
    3. " New head gasket " yep Must be reman ,oldest trick in the world .How in the world could you tell it's been painted

    Scott
    Last edited by CrewCab59; 12-30-2009 at 07:56 PM.

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    The major key points in that ad Scott linked:

    1. As is where is.
    2. No Returns Accepted
    3. No warranty
    4. No history as to when it was reworked or by who.

    Technically by what I was taught in the 1960's that is either a repaired, or used painted engine.
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    Don't know if it matters, but I have personally seen and DRIVEN the engine/drivetrain in question, which is still actually in the chassis.

    Regardless what the seller who owns it may or may not know, I did inform this potential buyer of my opinion on the condition of the engine and drivetrain, which is " an excellent, low-miles Re-Man engine, with a properly functioning TH400".
    I'm judging condition by the fact that it's absolutely clean with minimal, if any, oil seepage on the engine, has a Cummins Reman tag and, aside from having to jump it due to a low battery, it started right up in 10 degree temps and the transmission pulled the truck with ease pretty much within 5 minutes of start-up.

    Good or bad, that's what I know.

    If I had a USE for a 4BT and the cash to buy, I would not hesitate to pay the asking price.

    Mark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Nixon View Post
    Don't know if it matters, but I have personally seen and DRIVEN the engine/drivetrain in question, which is still actually in the chassis.

    Regardless what the seller who owns it may or may not know, I did inform this potential buyer of my opinion on the condition of the engine and drivetrain, which is " an excellent, low-miles Re-Man engine, with a properly functioning TH400".
    I'm judging condition by the fact that it's absolutely clean with minimal, if any, oil seepage on the engine, has a Cummins Reman tag and, aside from having to jump it due to a low battery, it started right up in 10 degree temps and the transmission pulled the truck with ease pretty much within 5 minutes of start-up.

    Good or bad, that's what I know.

    If I had a USE for a 4BT and the cash to buy, I would not hesitate to pay the asking price.

    Mark.

    Sorry, whatever you might think about the quality of the engine, what you are describing is a USED engine. The fact that it has a reman tag on it only means that it was re-manufactured at one point, but as soon as it is placed in service, then it becomes a used engine, just like a new car which leaves the lot, becomes a used car. It might be a quality job, it may be low miles, but it is a used engine, and is apparently not as sweet a deal as the man claims, or he would be willing to stand behind it.

    Personally, I think that if you are willing to pay $3200 for an engine that the seller won't stand behind, I think you are quite foolish. Hell, I'll sell you mine for that, and I'll guarantee it for a year. It isn't as pretty, probably has many more hours on it, but I trust it enough to guarantee it for a year, and will have enough money after the deal to buy two more. That's what he is going to do, anyways. At least I'll stand behind mine.

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    WHERE does this $3200 price you throw up even get mentioned?
    This one isn't even close to that much.
    A fool and his money are soon parted, heck, you should realize that every time you pay taxes of any sort.
    I know I do.

    You can't tell me that given a dirty, greasy engine sitting beside a clean engine of the same exact type, you aren't going to look the CLEANER engine over first.
    You'll be curious as to WHY it's so clean, it's human nature.

    I did all the tests any knowledgeable person would do, listened real close for cranking variance, pulled the oil cap, both while cold and hot, to check for excessive blowby, listened close for dull metallic thumping noises while under alternate tranny load, which can indicate possible main failure, as well as for higher pitched rattles on it when it was revved hot, for possible excessive rod bearing clearance.
    Also tried to rock the crank fore-to-aft to check main thrust, NONE was found.
    Checked for bubbles, both, streams and slow-drifting, in the coolant, both cold and hot, none there.
    Neither was there a detectable odor of exhaust in the radiator, which would indicate a cumbustion leak to the cooling system, ie. cracked head or mis-seal on the headgasket.
    Oil level was up and free of moisture, both pre-fire-up and after shut down.

    I'll take a nice, clean, tight engine I can hear, see and feel run, way before I'll take a greasy, grimy one that I may not even be able to hear run at all, warranty or not.
    If someone won't let me run my tests on the engine I want, I walk.

    Mark.

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    I thought you were referring to the engine which Scott linked to, as the one which you had heard run. If I was mistaken, I appologize. In any case, no, if I had a choice of two engines, and one of them was being sold as is, with no chance at recourse if it was bad, and the other was being offered with a one year warranty, I would be very suspicious of the "cleaner" engine. That isn't to say I would summarily dismiss it as a scam, but it would make me suspicious. In the end, if I had any doubts at all, I would go for the one which had some sort of guarantee.

    I would not buy one which I haven't heard run, unless it came with an ironclad warranty.

    The bottom line in this discussion is the fact that the engine in question is not a re-man. It might have been at one point, and it may have been a superior job, but once it was put in service, the re-man tag goes out the window, as it is simply a used engine. You can say that it was re-manufactured, at one point, but an honest seller will sell it as used. The only reason to mention it at all, is to imply some quality that might or might not be present. Certainly, if you have service records, then you can reference it as a low mileage engine, or whatever the records show, but without them, if you weren't specifically involved in the service of the vehicle, and have first hand knowledge of the details, then it just sounds like so much BS to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dahoyle View Post
    Sorry, whatever you might think about the quality of the engine, what you are describing is a USED engine. The fact that it has a reman tag on it only means that it was re-manufactured at one point, but as soon as it is placed in service, then it becomes a used engine, just like a new car which leaves the lot, becomes a used car. It might be a quality job, it may be low miles, but it is a used engine, and is apparently not as sweet a deal as the man claims, or he would be willing to stand behind it.

    Personally, I think that if you are willing to pay $3200 for an engine that the seller won't stand behind, I think you are quite foolish. Hell, I'll sell you mine for that, and I'll guarantee it for a year. It isn't as pretty, probably has many more hours on it, but I trust it enough to guarantee it for a year, and will have enough money after the deal to buy two more. That's what he is going to do, anyways. At least I'll stand behind mine.

    This is kinda goin' the wrong direction. My question was simple, It was answered in the sticky that I read after my post.

    This engine/tranny is not $3200.

    The re-man tag is from Cummins and not the current owner. They have nothing to do with it.

    I have no doubt that this a used engine & tranny, as is-where is with no warranty, that's the way I like 'em and it's priced according. If it breaks, I'll fix it and learn something while I do it. If I was buying this re-man from Cummins, then I'd be paying for a warranty. The gentlemen that i'm working with to purchase this engine/tranny are as honest & fair as they come, I have no doubt. They are just passing along a piece machinery that they have no use for, at a fair price, so it can be put to good use and not rust away. They did not re-man it and I don't expect them to warranty it. Most people on this site just want to give unneeded parts a good home for a price they would expect to pay themselves. I don't like "e-pay" and for that reason I'm driving an hour from the house to see these parts in person.

    In the beginning, my question was simple. I was just pondering the different processes between re-man & re-built.

    Zach

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    This got off track because I post a link on E-pay to watch out for ,as for the question asked reman or rebuild.

    Scott
    Last edited by CrewCab59; 12-30-2009 at 10:32 PM.

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    Well, the answer is still the same, if it has a reman tag form Cummins, they are essentially selling it as a new piece, with a warranty which reflects their confidence in it. It is easy enough to verify what work is done on an engine that has a Cummins re-man tag. Just ask them. If it has a tag from any other source, then in my mind it is suspect. In the case of an engine that is sold as a used engine, the tag really means absolutely nothing, because it doesn't say a thing about the current condition of the engine, and therefore, should have absolutely no bearing on the price, or the expectations of quality. It quite simply is a used engine.

    In the end, you have to realize that Cummins definition of a re-man, may be quite different than another engine builder. I'm quite sure that f you contact them, they can and will tell you what typically gets replaced, but as pointed out, it would have brought the engine to a like new condition.

    In the case of the engine you are looking at, all it really means is that it was pretty much totally worn out once, restored to new condition at some point, and has some indiscriminate amount of it's service life already used up again. In the end, you don't know anything more than you would if it had no tag at all. The tag should neither add to, or detract from the value. It is just a usless tidbit of data which is attached to the engine.

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    One of my engines had a Cummins Recon Badge on it. It looked almost new. The seller told me he bought the engine about 6 months prior, put it in his Step Van plumbing truck, then in a T Storm a large tree fell on the Van destroying it, and in fact the destroyed van was at his shop. . The engine was not hurt. The interesting fact, the data plate had the Recon number on it. I called Cummins with that number. It was a new Recon and was sold 6 month prior. It even had warantee left on the Cummins Recon. The sellers story was true, its a beautiful engine. How many miles could a plumber put on a van in 6 month......not that many. Cummins can verify the Recon Date/sale date if you call them.

    Paul

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    One would have assumed that even though it has a re-man tag on it, it is in a vehicle and one would therefore come to the logical conclusion that it is a USED "formerly re-manufactured" engine.

    Personally, it doesn't matter which way to me, because it certainly passed EVERY one of the test guidelines that I normally use.

    Sorry if this ruffled any feathers in the community.

    Mark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Nixon View Post

    Personally, it doesn't matter which way to me, because it certainly passed EVERY one of the test guidelines that I normally use.
    Which is exactly the right criteria to use. I guess my point was that whether or not it was remanufactured, or re-built, or simply a used engine with no documentation, then as a used engine, the current condition is the only thing that matters. Any additional information about the history of the engine then just becomes trivia, and should not be given any weight whatsoever.

    By all means, if you are interested in buying a fresh re-man with a warranty, then all the specific details of what was involved in the process become important, so that you can make a gudgement call on value, depending on what parts were replaced, what they were replaced with(not an issue with a Cummins re-man). Personally, I would trust a well used Cummins that had never been touched, before I would trust a re-man/re-build by any other re-builder than Cummins, because you don't know what their QC is, what replacement parts they use, and what bandaids were applied.

    The engine which Scott linked to is a perfect example of what not to trust. Somebody told somebody that it had just been gone thru(whatever that means), and it has a fresh head gasket(maybe) so it must be true. What a crock of ****e. Maybe the head was just warped, and someone threw a new gasekt and a paint job on it. I wouldn't even go to look at that engine, regardless of price, but someone will latch onto those misleading details, thinking they hit the jackpot.

    I don't really think it is a hijack, or off topic to point it out, since the question will be read by many people in times to come. The question is a simple one, but it doesn't necessesarily have a simple, or single answer. In the case of a Cummins re-man tag, I think you can have confidence that the rebuild essentially brought the engine to a like new condition, but even then, it can certainly be assumed that the service life of some of the components will probably be less than a new engine. In the case of any other rebuilder/re-manufacturer, then the details of what is replaced, and whether or not they were replaced with OEM components becomes a great deal more vague.
    Last edited by dahoyle; 12-31-2009 at 03:09 PM.

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    Just a note. I run Cat engines in wheel loaders and a couple trucks. I had a 3406 rebuilt at the dealership (Western states) and they said that as long as a part is in spec they don't replace it. Cam journals cranks and other hard parts. I think they called it service limits or something like that. Also the engine was only good for half the hours that a new engine was for rebuild purposes. Say 10000 hours on new and 5000 on the reman.

    Just a thought I don't know if cummins does the same but I know that a reman Cat engine Is not a new engine by any means. and at about 8,000 to 15,000 dollars for the rebuild it makes a difference to me.

    Dusty


    Have a happy new year!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by esfoder View Post
    Just a note. I run Cat engines in wheel loaders and a couple trucks. I had a 3406 rebuilt at the dealership (Western states) and they said that as long as a part is in spec they don't replace it. Cam journals cranks and other hard parts. I think they called it service limits or something like that. Also the engine was only good for half the hours that a new engine was for rebuild purposes. Say 10000 hours on new and 5000 on the reman.

    Just a thought I don't know if cummins does the same but I know that a reman Cat engine Is not a new engine by any means. and at about 8,000 to 15,000 dollars for the rebuild it makes a difference to me.


    Dusty


    Have a happy new year!!!
    They may not replace an item that is in spec, in a "rebuild" ,that they are doing for a customer but I would be willing to bet that in a "re-man" engine, that they are putting in a warehouse and selling, it will have a different criteria for what parts are replaced. In the case of a re-man, then any wear item will be replaced with new(cam/lifters), or resurfaced(crank) an items like the rods will be re-conditioned.

    http://www.cat.com/cda/files/1415112...%20Engines.pdf


    In the case of a re-build, many of those parts may well be reused, if they check out within spec, where in a re-man, they are replaced with new, or reconditioned components.
    Last edited by dahoyle; 12-31-2009 at 03:32 PM.

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