Requesting info on VW Diesel

[flyin71h]

I'm considering swapping a VW turbodiesel into an S10, problem is I know nearly nothing about them besides their reputation for reliabilty and longevity. What year(s) and model(s) vehicles had the mechanical (VE pump) turbocharged I4? Is there any year or model more desireable or to stay away from? Any info would be appreciated.

[Machman]

From what I've read on them, the IDI motors were pretty much the same up until '86, except for displacement. I'm not sure if they ever put a turbo on the 1.5..

'86 and up introduced the hydraulic lifter head and other updates, and towards the end of production you had a turbo diesel that wasn't: The Ecco diesel. This had a turbo just as a "smoke control" device, as there was no provision on the pump for boost fuel increase. Nice thing is that those were "full turbo" motors: Heads, blocks, pistons, etc. all turbo spec. So, strap on a pump that has provisions for the turbo and hang on!

You do NOT want to turbo a non-turbo. You either have to stay at low boost or the thing won't hang together.

The most interesting thing I've encountered so far in investigating VW diesels has been to convert the TDI motors to mechanical injection:

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewto...5f28d8d57cf875

This allows you to do a TDI swap into things MUCH easier than otherwise, as the electronics on the TDI requires matching the engine w/ computer AND dash (and maybe more).

[jdemaris]

I'm considering swapping a VW turbodiesel into an S10, problem is I know nearly nothing about them besides their reputation for reliabilty and longevity. What year(s) and model(s) vehicles had the mechanical (VE pump) turbocharged I4? Is there any year or model more desireable or to stay away from? Any info would be appreciated.

I don't think it's enough engine for an S10. Maybe a 2WD on flat roads would be OK. Swapping Volkswagen diesels into Chevy and Geo Trackers is a popular swap and all the premade adapters are available.
I've got a 95 4WD Tracker and and a 1.6 Volks diesel I'm going to put together someday.

I had two S10s with factory-installed 2.2 diesels and they were severely underpowered. I also had an Isuzu Trooper with the 2.2 turbop-diesel and it just barely had enough power to get out of its own way.

[DogDiesel]

Could not agree more. I have the largest IDI VW diesel they made in my teeny-tiny VW pickup. 1.9TD AAZ. I assure you, since I cannot win any races with it pushing less than 2K lbs, it won't get better in an S10 with real frame rails.
Just about any route you choose, you have to find a foreign made diesel, since the USA has not made a good small vehicle diesel engine yet.
Overseas, I have driven some great running Mitszubitsi, Izusu Daewoo, Nissan etc. Some of the MFI direct injection intercooled turbo diesels had as much power as gassers. Fun to drive.
I have a 2.2 Mercedes in a 190D that would make an S-10 go. Good power and 32-37 MPG. Quiet and good longevity too.

Wayne

I don't think it's enough engine for an S10. .

[Grigg]

I have a 98 Jetta TDI and love it, great mileage, and with a chip and injectors outstanding performance.

Go here for some help and ideas http://forums.tdiclub.com/

Grigg

[flyin71h]

It's difficult (for me, anyway) to imagine that any engine could be as gutless as the 2.2L MPFI that's in the truck, but I'll take everyone's word for it. Great mileage, but you have to drive it like you're mad at it just to maintain road speed. If the VW is not a good choice, I would like to hear more about other alternatives, including the Mercedes. I have thought about a small ag/industrial engine (Kubota, Yanmar, etc.), but am concerned about possible longevity issues, as these were never intended for an on road application, besides the issues that having a load governer may create.

[Machman]

Well, a 2.2 puts out roughly 120HP @ 5200 RPM, 130 Ft LB of torque @ 2800 RPM.

A stock 1.6 VW TD IDI puts out 68 HP @ 4500 RPM, 98 Ft LB @ 2800 RPM.

But, that stock 1.6 doesn't have an aftercooler, and it's got a Bosch VE pump that is just as easy to turn the screws on as the one on the 4BT.

I'd say you could bump it up a bit before getting too fuzzy with an aftercooler, at least to what you've got now on horsepower, which would put you over on torque. Which in turn would make it move like a higher peak HP gasser off the line.

[jdemaris]

Well, a 2.2 puts out roughly 120HP @ 5200 RPM, 130 Ft LB of torque @ 2800 RPM.

A stock 1.6 VW TD IDI puts out 68 HP @ 4500 RPM, 98 Ft LB @ 2800 RPM.

But, that stock 1.6 doesn't have an aftercooler, and it's got a Bosch VE pump that is just as easy to turn the screws on as the one on the 4BT.

I'd say you could bump it up a bit before getting too fuzzy with an aftercooler, at least to what you've got now on horsepower, which would put you over on torque. Which in turn would make it move like a higher peak HP gasser off the line.

A stock 2.2 Chevy gasser with sequential injection has 140 lbs. of torque at 2800 RPM and the same 2.2 with throttle-body has 130 lbs. at 2300 RPM.
I doubt you can turn up the 1.9 TDI Volks diesel and get the same power without losing reliability. I don't know exactly what Volkswagen has done along the way to beef up these engines as the power increases - but I assume many changes have been made. The new 2 liter Volks diesel is putting out 140 horse and 235 lb. ft. of torque.

As to the other comments about the 1.9 being great in someone's car? Well yeah, but the car weighs a bit less. S10 2WD weight 2800 lbs. A 91 Jetta diesel weigh 2300 lbs. I have two 91s and I love them. I also have two diesel Chevy Chevettes with 1.8 Isuzu engines and they're excellent runners also. But - I wouldn't use either of those engines in a truck.

If I was going to go through all the work of a conversion into a truck, I'd pick a bigger engine - something up around 3 liter. But, for a simple mechancially injected engine - seems a Mercedes five-banger is the only engine that's easy to find and cheap. I passed up two good running 300Ds recently - I could of bought the entire running cars for $500 each.

[Matt Mullen]

If you can find a wrecked donor (TDI from '99-'04 real common), figure out the ecu / wiring (lots of info on the web ... people have been swapping these into vanagons for a while) and are willing to spend some $ on tuning, then: 160hp / 350ft.lbs on a stock ALH injection system -only changes are better intercooler, larger turbo, larger nozzles and custom software. I'd see if acmeadapters.com already has a plate for adapting to your trans. If not, then swap a toyota truck trans, acme makes a plate for those. Fab motor mounts and take care of about 1000 other tiny details. Beyond that, I drive a chipped 2000 jetta (120hp) and feel like its motor would move an s10 just fine. Check out the vanagon tdi swap page on yahoo groups. Remember vanagons are big and heavy!
matt

[Grigg]

As to the other comments about the 1.9 being great in someone's car? Well yeah, but the car weighs a bit less.

If I was going to go through all the work of a conversion into a truck, I'd pick a bigger engine.

That was me, and while the TDI is great in the car, (with the chip it's much better than the VW gas engine) I would not bother to swap it in a truck.

But depending on your needs it could be OK? If you want good mileage, almost acceptable performance, and never haul anything, then the TDI may be fine in an S10.

If you just want a VW diesel, buy the Jetta and drive it as is, save money and lots of time.
And you can still fit a bunch of stuff in a Jetta, I've tried. like these truck parts, 3 fenders, two inner fenders, a hood, grill, and a few other parts, they all fit in the car, and one more hood on the roof rack, and they are 2 ton truck parts...


I have also had a Roadranger 10 speed in the trunk, and even a Dana 60 on the roof rack (not at the same time).

Personally I would go for a bigger/different engine in a truck.

What do you hope to gain by doing a small diesel conversion in an S10?

Grigg

[flyin71h]

What do you hope to gain by doing a small diesel conversion in an S10?

Grigg

Well................besides just liking to do the unusual/impossible, the main purpose would be to make a more cost effective daily driver. My 4BT powered 1990 K1500 will get around 26.5 mpg, seldom more, and now slightly less on ULSD (winter blend ULSD, to add insult to injury). By putting a smaller diesel into a smaller truck, I am hoping to push that mpg number into the 30-40 mpg range, fuel economy that I know the VW and similar diesels are well capable of, in their original platform, anyway. The reason I am considering a swap as opposed to just driving a Jetta, Mercedes, or whatever is because I am very familiar with and have considerable experience working on GM chassis, experience and knowledge I do not have with regard to the foregoing. In other words, concerning the vehicle, I can fix it myself, with more readily available and less expensive parts.

[Grigg]

On my 98 Jetta I have had to replace a few engine related parts, belts, glow plugs, hoses, all regular stuff that you deal with no matter the chassis.
On this car and the last one I had, a 95 gas Jetta gas, I have never had to worry with anything major, just brake pads once or twice, struts once, and tires. I have put a total of about 150,000 miles combined on the two Jettas, that each had over 125,000 miles when I got them.

So, from my experience, if you already have a truck to use, use it as a truck. Then just buy the Jetta TDI and drive as is, no maintenance problems or aggravations brought on by an engine swap, cheaper in the long run, and 50 mpg with very little effort.

I get always over 42 mpg, and usually 45, if I try I can get 50.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for diesel swaps, but sometimes the best answer is a stock vehicle, and if it's a diesel what more could ask for?

Grigg

[richmond2000]

vw made an inline 6 diesel used in VOLVO diesel cars an VW crafter pre 98
and its a nice and smooth engine ore you could use an OM617 MB engine (dont know about fitment?)

[4btoy4me]

That was me, and while the TDI is great in the car, (with the chip it's much better than the VW gas engine) I would not bother to swap it in a truck.

But depending on your needs it could be OK? If you want good mileage, almost acceptable performance, and never haul anything, then the TDI may be fine in an S10.

If you just want a VW diesel, buy the Jetta and drive it as is, save money and lots of time.
And you can still fit a bunch of stuff in a Jetta, I've tried. like these truck parts, 3 fenders, two inner fenders, a hood, grill, and a few other parts, they all fit in the car, and one more hood on the roof rack, and they are 2 ton truck parts...


I have also had a Roadranger 10 speed in the trunk, and even a Dana 60 on the roof rack (not at the same time).

Personally I would go for a bigger/different engine in a truck.

What do you hope to gain by doing a small diesel conversion in an S10?

Grigg

As a long time VW fan I would advise against any of the IDI engines in the S10. The TDI on the other hand is a very different animal, despite being very similiar in design. Stock they produce 155 lb/ft of torque at 1900 rpm. Cummins fans note the rpm!) and many have been tuned to well over 300lb/ft. If you wanted a 35-40 mpg 2wd pick up the TDI is perfect. I have pulled a 3000lb Samurai on 35in tires 70mph BEHIND my old (200k mi) TDI Jetta.

That's a 3000lb Parachute behind a 3500lb Car (with occupants and gear) and wide economy gearing.
Fitness for purpose is the key. If you are going to need the hiway cruiser for light loads and general commuting the TDI is a suitable choice. Put some extra oil capacity and some cooling on it and keep it mild. If you need a 4x4 rock buggy that can haul a loaded car trailer, look at the 4BT.

Either way there will be compromises and a load of people that will tell you that you are doing it wrong.

[DieselSchlepper]

I looked at the VW Diesels for months. Compared to a lot of generator/AG/Construction/Highway engines you can get they are fragile and expensive. Price them on Car-parts.com.

For an S10 I would consider a 3 or smaller 4 cylinder tractor engine way before a VW. Kubo, Deutz (aircooled!) etc. Bill at Phoenix will help you hook up with adaptors etc. Really, VW's are nice motors but they seem to have weak spots that pop up here and there. Too many problems for me to feel comfortable with when there are so many stronger motors.

For some reason the brilliant Germans will allow a weakness to creep into their design that may or MAY NOT give YOU problems down the road - sooner or later. For example the V6 they're using now has a little screen about the size you may have seen in certain types of smoking pipes, ahem, in a key oil passage that is clogging
up at about 80K and causing oil pressure to drop drastically. The dealer did not know how to fix this and I only found out about it at a local shop. It requires dropping the pan and cleaning out the little so and so. Otherwise the engine is scrap. VW has a number of cute little tricks like this. Weak oil pumps, small cam lobes in high demand situations, engines with very specific lube requirements that may or may not have been followed by previous owner(s). Always know the history of a VW before you buy it. The dealers consistently put the wrong oil in these engines. Using 505.00 instead of 505.01 is supposed to be the cause of a rash of PD (pump deuse) engines' cams in the US - with cam metallurgy problems found ONLY in the US.

VW has a cult following for Diesels in the US but you have to remember that most dealerships in the US are not compentent with Diesels. There's lot's of horror stories about dealers ruining good engines and then avoiding responsibility legally.

Not to pick on Germans, I am related to some, or VW's, I own one. Sorry for the long lecture.

I'm considering swapping a VW turbodiesel into an S10, problem is I know nearly nothing about them besides their reputation for reliabilty and longevity. What year(s) and model(s) vehicles had the mechanical (VE pump) turbocharged I4? Is there any year or model more desireable or to stay away from? Any info would be appreciated.

[4btoy4me]

I'd agree that there are some small issues with some Kraut engines. Most of the weaknesses that you'll find in them are related to poor maintenance, driving habits, lousy fuel quality, and the emission standards that a car has to conform to. Tractors and other equipment can have 8-12qt oil capacity (on a , 2000cc engine). Try that in a compact. (Oil pump weakness) New car buyers are turned off when they can't rev an engine to 5000rpm. Tractor engines with 4-5" of stroke are unreliable when you try to do that. Drivers usually run their cars for 20minutes then park it for 8hrs and then repeat the most damaging part the warm-up cycle. An equipment engine is usually in operation for hours at a time. That oil problem is an oil formulation problem more than a metalurgy issue. Most diesel engine manufacturers are picky about the oil you use now, and most will try to skate on resposibility given the opportunity.
New car Manufacturers have unrealistically increased service intervals to lower "the cost of maintenance" that consumer magazines publish.
Extended service intervals coupled with heightened operating temps and shortened driving cycles have increased the number of oil related failures.There are alot of compromises that need to be addressed before selecting an engine for an application.

My experience is mostly with om616-617 314and 352 Mercedes engines, and pre PD TDI VW engines. I have seen too many have near 500kmile service lives with appropriate maintenance and use to believe they are inherintly fragile. That said. I have seen several that needed complete overhaul before 50kmiles because of nothing more than stupidity. Krautcans will always be expensive to overhaul.

[4btoy4me]

And as a sidenote, the 1.9tdi is available as an industrial engine for waterpumps agenerators and all sorts of different ag and industrial applications. it is also available in a 2.4liter 5 cylinder variety that is used in Astro to econoline sized delivery vans.

[DieselSchlepper]

i'd agree that there are some small issues with some kraut engines.
Most of the weaknesses that you'll find in them are related to poor maintenance, driving habits, lousy fuel quality, and the emission standards that a car has to conform to.

**Dealers in the us are well known for not using the correct oils.

Tractors and other equipment can have 8-12qt oil capacity (on a , 2000cc engine). Try that in a compact.

**Mine takes less than 4 quarts with 10k service interval and requires only 507.00 spec

(oil pump weakness) new car buyers are turned off when they can't rev an engine to 5000rpm. Tractor engines with 4-5" of stroke are unreliable when you try to do that. Drivers usually run their cars for 20minutes then park it for 8hrs and then repeat the most damaging part the warm-up cycle. An equipment engine is usually in operation for hours at a time.
That oil problem is an oil formulation problem more than a metalurgy issue.

**The dealers tend to use the wrong oil - believe me i've been through it. Many pd cams fail in the us but almost unknow overseas
Oil pumps are weak in some. eg. Octagonal drive shaft gets pounded into a round and slips.

most diesel engine manufacturers are picky about the oil you use now, and most will try to skate on resposibility given the opportunity.
New car manufacturers have unrealistically increased service intervals to lower "the cost of maintenance" that consumer magazines publish.
Extended service intervals coupled with heightened operating temps and shortened driving cycles have increased the number of oil related failures.there are alot of compromises that need to be addressed before selecting an engine for an application.
My experience is mostly with om616-617 314and 352 mercedes engines, and pre pd tdi vw engines. I have seen too many have near 500kmile service lives with appropriate maintenance and use to believe they are inherintly fragile. That said. I have seen several that needed complete overhaul before 50kmiles because of nothing more than stupidity. Krautcans will always be expensive to overhaul.

**That's just it. Lower oil capacity. More difficult duty cycles. Lack of knowledge on dealers' part how to maintain. How do you make sure you get a good engine when you buy used?
**Vw engines are not commonly used in industrial applications in the us, are they?

11

[DieselSchlepper]

And as a sidenote, the 1.9tdi is available as an industrial engine for waterpumps agenerators and all sorts of different ag and industrial applications. it is also available in a 2.4liter 5 cylinder variety that is used in Astro to econoline sized delivery vans.

Not in the US!

[4btoy4me]

The 2.4 not so much But The industrial motors were available in the US

[DieselSchlepper]

Sorry if I was blunt. Spent some time lookin at em and found some problems. Was disappointed in them. I was just talking to a tuner and he can turn the top up to 3600 on the 4bt. That's not bad - hope it isn't too high. Personally attracted to low end grunt.

[4btoy4me]

I am a huge fan of low end grunt. That is why I love the TDI (The 4bt too)Peak torque is made at 1900 rpm. For some reason I thought The #2 pencil sized shaft was an affliction only the domestic v-8's had.
Early on in this thread I stated the IDI motors are not well suited... well for much of anything any more. The PD engine is technology that seems beyond most average techs' dealerships and the average driver for sure. (Average, not all) The Pre PD TDI engine seems well suited for most applications at one level or another. And I have not seen the oil pump failure on them. That is not to say they don't happen or even that they are not common. I just have not seen them..

If you wanted a light weight mini truck An s10 or ranger or Insert favorite brand here 2wd could be propelled by a TDI Easily for 250kmiles without huge maintenance expenses. I'd run a TDI Acme adapter to a toy bell or trans.

If you wanted a medium-heavy minitruck that you were willing to make a bunch of chassis mods on the 4bt is a superior choice. just remember The s10 t-5 probably won't live long with a 4bt knocking it around and the front suspension isn't designed for the weight and neither were the brakes...

As far as some of the other little diesel engines Some of them are so obscure getting parts is a waiting game.

[DieselSchlepper]

Deutz is a great lighter 3 cylinder and Kubota. THe Cummins 3.3 would be a real ice choice. THere is one one Flebay now - new, I think at $2900. Personally I'd be looking at that. Bullet proof. Don't get me wrong I love my 09 TDI.

Edit: the guy has 12 new cummins 3.3!

[4btoy4me]

I reread some of my posts and it looks like I am arguing. That was not the point. Just the reasons the VW in an S10 is a pretty good Idea. The Deutz engines that are used in aircraft tugs have to be anvil reliable. (beat the hell out of them and they still work) They don't seem to get a great deal of maintenance but they are always moving baggage. They are just hard to find compared to The VW engines. then there are trans adapter issues too. What would you run for a bellhousing adapter or trans to mate to the Deutz? It looked like a small SAE pattern. I am all for an industrial engine in a mini. It is just when it comes down to the assembly and long term usage, Industrial engines aren't as practical as they would seem. If planned so there are few custom wear items, it would be a great deal though.

[DieselSchlepper]

Phoenix makes adapters for all the major transmissions. I had a long talk with Bill their tech guy and basically you can put a Deutz in Ford, Chevy, Dodge, whatever using the SAE 3,4 bellhousing they came with. The SAE 3 x 10 or 11 is $500 and the 4 X 10 is $410. He sent me some PDF instructions too. Cool huh?

PD or Pump Deuse VWs have a small cam lobe operating each of the 4 pumps for each cylinder. They have been having a fairly high incidence of failure in the US. No oil pump issues with the PD I'm aware of.

I don't mean to argue either, dude. Checked out the prices on used PDs on car-parts.com and they range from about 1200 to 2000 at 100,000K and more. How much better to bite the bullet on a new engine like a 3.3 and know what you have?

[bowtie4bt]

i know 2 guys a t work with these in bugs and they say they get great mpg...

[reverendd]

If it'll fit, I'd put the 5cyl mercedes/automatic and be done with it. It'll knock down those numbers in MPG and they're stone axe reliable even if you pump it up a bit. Don't expect to drag race it, but if you do, look for S10's with VW motors in em.... Seriously, one of the chaps here in a recent post did a mazda truck with the mercedes and it seems to work pretty good. Just a thought. Here's the thread: http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showth...ighlight=mazda

Regards,

Rev. D.

[RichB]

I put a 1.6 VW diesel in my Toyota T100 awhile back. It's a 4x4 regular cab that had the V6's head gasket go in it for the last time. Since the only adapters available were for the Toyota and Zuki 4cyl, I decided to make my own to mate up to the R150 (V6) tranny. It uses all Toyota from the flywheel back. Adapter was 3/8" Al plate. Flywheel was bored out to fit VW crank, mounting bolts and new pilot bearing was made from some turned down oilite bearing stock I had.

Power wise it's not like my '02 TDI Golf, but it's ok considering the weight it is moving. It is using a VNT15 turbo off of a '99 parts ALH motor I have, but the vanes are not being managed currently. That is something I really want to get finished soon as the motor comes alive instantly when the boost builds. 20 psi is nothing w/ the vanes closed and I am still barely out of 2nd gear. Currently I have them about .75 from being fully opened to limit boost. The intercooler is from an Audi 1.8T which helps things a lot too. I am still not completely satisfied w/ everything yet, but I fool around w/ it every once and awhile. It's always in a state of tweak I guess.

Check it out if you like, haven't posted anything new to it in awhile though:

geistsystems dot com

[Dr. Loot]

I can solve the issue very easily, I have 9, 4.3 GM diesels that will drop right in that truck, too bad they are not for sale, good luck finding one.

[Redpawn]

Aren't the 4.3 diesel GM built like the v8 gas to diesel motors olds had guarantted to blow up in less than 100k?