PRESS RELEASE: Mercedes Benz Swap Adapters
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Thread: PRESS RELEASE: Mercedes Benz Swap Adapters

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    '69 FJ55 Land Cruiser dieselcruiserhead's Avatar
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    Default PRESS RELEASE: Mercedes Benz Swap Adapters

    4x4labs announces the Mercedes-Benz OM617 to GM
    transmission adapter.

    We have successfully tested our GM manual
    transmission adapter and are ready to do a
    pre-production run of 25 units.

    At this time we have a 3 part kit to mate a GM
    transmission to the engine. This kit consists of -
    1. Engine to bellhousing adapter
    2. Custom flywheel
    3. Pilot bushing adapter

    We are taking orders now and have a few
    requirements for our pre-run customers. If you
    are interested in participating in this
    pre-production run we ask that you be ready to
    go with your swap so that we can obtain timely
    feedback and any observations that you may have
    regarding the fitment and installation. We ask
    that you be automotive or engineering oriented.
    We are also looking for an assortment of
    different transmissions so we will be basing our
    decisions on that as well.

    Our adapters arenít made by anyone else,
    anywhere. These adapters do not require any
    block or transmission case modifications and use
    common off the shelf factory replacement parts.
    They are easy to bolt on at home. They are high
    quality, and expensive to produce. Well worth
    the money.

    Our target price for the adapter kit is below
    $1000. As we get our production ramped up we
    will better be able to narrow down the price.

    If you are interested in knowing more please see
    the diesel conversions section on our new website.

    http://www.4x4labs.com/dieselconversions.shtml

    Please keep in mind our website is under
    construction. We will be changing things around
    and adding the web store so please be patient as
    we get our new site organized.

    You are always welcome to call or email any
    questions.
    thanks,

    -luke@4x4labs
    530.477.0140
    1991 Toyota Pickup, Mercedes 300D OM617 diesel
    1969 Land Cruiser project in progress with 4BT
    1989 Land Cruiser project in progress with 4BT
    2010 KTM 450

    Successfully installed 4BT, Isuzu 4BD1T, and Mercedes 300D engines into different vehicles.

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    these are for the engines out of a 300D correct??? would they also fit the sprinter mercedes diesel?
    -Jon
    79 CJ5 4bt CTD/SM465/D20/D44 f&r/4.56 gears/spools/about 6" of lift.
    Quote Originally Posted by WC53 View Post
    My rod is a bit short and I need a longer one or I need to lengthen the one I have.

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    '69 FJ55 Land Cruiser dieselcruiserhead's Avatar
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    Correct for the early 80's inline 5 cyls. Good for small/medium trucks...
    1991 Toyota Pickup, Mercedes 300D OM617 diesel
    1969 Land Cruiser project in progress with 4BT
    1989 Land Cruiser project in progress with 4BT
    2010 KTM 450

    Successfully installed 4BT, Isuzu 4BD1T, and Mercedes 300D engines into different vehicles.

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    Default Mercedes 4 Cylinder

    Quote Originally Posted by dieselcruiserhead View Post
    Correct for the early 80's inline 5 cyls. Good for small/medium trucks...
    Does anyone know if these adapters will fit the 4 cyl Mercedes engines that were built just before the 5 cyl?

    Lewis
    1981 Jeep J10, 4BT, AA Ranger Gear Splitter OD, Muncie 465, 208 Xfr, 3.31 Diffs, 31x10.50x15 Tires, Stock VE, Stock Injectors, Fluidamper Harmonic Balancer, 3" Exh/1st Gen Muffler, BD Air Filter/3" Flex Hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J10Diesel View Post
    Does anyone know if these adapters will fit the 4 cyl Mercedes engines that were built just before the 5 cyl?

    Lewis
    I believe the blocks are the same, the flywheels will bolt on, but there is a balance differince between the 4cyl & 5 cyl(ext bal). The balance issue is what took so long for them to come up with the flywheel (the 5cyl did not come in the US with a manual). People have swapped in the 5cyl w/ 4cyl flywheel w/ minimal claimed problems. I bought a 300D w/ the 617 acouple of years ago to put in the willys, ran into problems with adapting. I am very I wound up w/the 4BTA.
    61 Willys Wagon, wagoneer frame, t18, 18 tcase, warn od, 35" BFG muds. 4BTA 120hp w/59k

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    Default Thanks 1Stumpjumper

    Thanks I have a short engine bay in a 85 jeep XJ. I am thinking about a 4cyl Mercedes diesel. I don't need alot of power.

    Lewis
    1981 Jeep J10, 4BT, AA Ranger Gear Splitter OD, Muncie 465, 208 Xfr, 3.31 Diffs, 31x10.50x15 Tires, Stock VE, Stock Injectors, Fluidamper Harmonic Balancer, 3" Exh/1st Gen Muffler, BD Air Filter/3" Flex Hose.

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    '69 FJ55 Land Cruiser dieselcruiserhead's Avatar
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    Yes they share the same pattern. That said, that 4 cyl really is a total dog, I wouldn't recommend it for anyone at all. It hardly powers those old Benzes well, IMO..

    I am planning a 5 cyl install into my Toyota mini truck at some point in the near future using this kit...
    1991 Toyota Pickup, Mercedes 300D OM617 diesel
    1969 Land Cruiser project in progress with 4BT
    1989 Land Cruiser project in progress with 4BT
    2010 KTM 450

    Successfully installed 4BT, Isuzu 4BD1T, and Mercedes 300D engines into different vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselcruiserhead View Post
    Yes they share the same pattern. That said, that 4 cyl really is a total dog, I wouldn't recommend it for anyone at all. It hardly powers those old Benzes well, IMO..

    I am planning a 5 cyl install into my Toyota mini truck at some point in the near future using this kit...
    Thanks for the info. I need to complete my J10 first then I'll decide if I will put an engine into my XJ. The 5 cyl looks close it may fit or I could get a later model XJ, they used the AMC 4L inline 6 and should have a longer engine bay.

    Anyway I think this kit is a great idea.

    Lewis
    1981 Jeep J10, 4BT, AA Ranger Gear Splitter OD, Muncie 465, 208 Xfr, 3.31 Diffs, 31x10.50x15 Tires, Stock VE, Stock Injectors, Fluidamper Harmonic Balancer, 3" Exh/1st Gen Muffler, BD Air Filter/3" Flex Hose.

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    cool, what kind of HP and torque do those 5cyls make?
    88 Chevy Airforce crewcab. 6bt NV4500 valair clutch, modified 4k GSK
    http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=522535
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    from here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ghlight=diesel

    "OM617 specs:
    29" long - some debate as to whether that includes fan
    24" tall (26" by others, may be differences in oil pan or valve cover between years)
    22" wide
    244kg (563lbs) Long block weight

    125hp/140ft-lbs stock, but speaking to some people - 180hp/200ft-lbs is quite easily achieved with the addition of an intercooler, adjustment to IP and turning up the boost to 14psi.

    Transmission depends on your view of the world, personally I'm planning to use the MB automagic, it doesn't work like your north american built automatic, it does have a rear pump (aka - able to be push started & engine brake) and shifts a little different than those used to driving the big 3 transmissions would expect. However adapting the output to a divorced tcase is complicated by the rear output, MB uses a rubber disc similar to a steering ragjoint. Nothing a little machining or adaptation can't fix though.

    4bt is a much uglier swap - that engine runs a cool 1000lbs, making for a very complicated conversion when one factors in the dana60 etc needed to support that weight."

    also from that same thread:

    it will fit in an XJ!
    2001 CTD Durango - Sold
    2000 24V Ram QCLB 5speed - Current

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    Default 300D fits XJ

    Thanks Diesel Durango . My measurements were off. I'll plan on a 300D for my XJ.

    Lewis
    1981 Jeep J10, 4BT, AA Ranger Gear Splitter OD, Muncie 465, 208 Xfr, 3.31 Diffs, 31x10.50x15 Tires, Stock VE, Stock Injectors, Fluidamper Harmonic Balancer, 3" Exh/1st Gen Muffler, BD Air Filter/3" Flex Hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel Durango View Post
    ... it doesn't work like your north american built automatic, it does have a rear pump (aka - able to be push started & engine brake) ...
    1950s GM Hydramatic, 4 speeds and a pump driven off the output. I have one installed behind a '58 Pontiac 370. Posting just to dispell the thought that this was a Euro only thing, not to be a smartass.

    On a more on-topic note I have a 'dreaming' type plan of using one of these adapters to power a certain American made rear engine car with an OM617.

    Ken
    Last edited by IHWillys; 08-27-2008 at 09:55 AM.

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    The balance issue is a little odd. Basically the 617s were externally balanced, meaning they added weight to the flywheel/flexplate of the different setups. You mark the flywheel, then take it to an engine balancer. The measure the balance of the old flywheel and mimic it with the new one... In theory. From the info I have most actually do balance neutral and I don't think its that big a deal to run the balance off regardless... It is not a big amount of weight...

    I have spoken to Luke about it (building him a new web site) and he really likes it a lot in a FJ40. I had a '83 300D turboed that I loved. Had good power on the freeway, I think the auto also sucks a lot of the power out of it. Luke really knows his diesels and is saying it comes out very torquey with a manual transmission... MMM
    1991 Toyota Pickup, Mercedes 300D OM617 diesel
    1969 Land Cruiser project in progress with 4BT
    1989 Land Cruiser project in progress with 4BT
    2010 KTM 450

    Successfully installed 4BT, Isuzu 4BD1T, and Mercedes 300D engines into different vehicles.

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    Man that sounds like just what I need for my wifes fj-40! any idea what the adapter will cost? gonna run a chevy nv4500 in it.
    88 Chevy Airforce crewcab. 6bt NV4500 valair clutch, modified 4k GSK
    http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=522535
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    http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showth...72-Scout-Build

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    Default 300 SD 616 and 617 motors

    I have a 83 300SD that is the big 4 door sedan it has the 617.951 motor. It moves the 4,000lb car just fine. There is plenty of power (115hp) for the freeway, and it cruises at 70 mph delivering a consistant 27MPG. I drive the **** out of this car, just drove it to vegas. and it is as close to dead reliable as I have seen. It will do 100 mph but I've never taken it above 85, which is 4,500 rpms. 3,000 is 70, 4,000 is 80. 3,000 is the sweet spot for the motor.

    Gearing this engine for a cruise speed of 3000 rpms is what you're looking for.

    A vehicle with alot of wind resistance will be a dog, and any vehicle using this engine should be built as light as poosible, to mimimize this effect.. A CJ7 would be cool, as the stock gas engine only has 118hp. I would not use the MBZ/ZF auto as it shifts from reverse to forward really slow and could get you in trouble on a technical trail. I would go with a T5 manual from a Jeep, as the extra gear would come in handy, and use a D30 and D44 for axles a D300 and maybe 31" tires max. and definately keep it light!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The 4 cyl 616 motor is not going to be fast in anything. And worse if altitude is in the picture. I have a friend who has the fastest 240 D I have ever seen. It is a manual 4sp and will do 75mph on level ground (with the wind) at sea level. If you really don't mind 55MPH in a Jeep or LR type vehicle then it is probably the most reliable engine ever produced on the planet. My friends car has 620K miles on it. He has owned it for 23 years. It still has the original engine and trans. He drives it 25 miles back and forth to work everyday. They were built to be the ultimate "transportation car" and they are that. You just can't be in too big a hurry to get anywhere.

    They have 70-75HP at sea level. There are more 616's with over 1 million miles on them, than any other car engine ever produced, and they are supported world wide by every MBZ dealer. In fact ALL MBZ's are supported like that. You can get a good used 616 motor from a junk yard for $500 and a 617 motor for $750-1000, in fact you should just get the whole car so you get all of the piece parts too..

    I am told there are turbo kits for the 616 engine available in Europe 90-100hp. Could make up for losses due to altitude. I think you'd use the 617 pistons, and have the IP which is similar to the ones we use on 4 bt's recalibrated. Could make for an interesting project. Maybe a CJ3B would be cool.

    Check out the Expedition Portal website. DCH can provide the actual address. There is a guy named Jim Young who has 2 Land Rovers with MBZ motors. A Series 3/ 88" wb with a 616 motor and a 109 with a 617 turbo motor in it he just finished. His handle is "mercedesrover" DCH knows him. I just read his build write up for the 109, 43 pages, He runs a body shop and he does first rate work. Both of the cars are exceptional builds, worthy of a look.

    He says the 88/616 is a 55-60 mph car loaded or unloaded 25mpg onroad. The much bigger 109/617 cruises at 70MPH just fine, while returning 20+mpg.

    The fact that someome is offering and adapter kit for these engines opens up alot of possibilities.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-07-2008 at 01:40 PM.
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

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    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    Well, needless to say I am totally stoked at the idea that I may now be able to put one of these in my Scout without alot of fuss. But as far as the discussion on the 616 goes, let's just say that "results not typical".

    I have a 240D I drive every day. While not zippy by any means, it doesn't do that bad. I can run 65-70 all day long and average 27+ mpg highway out of it. It's obviously a little slower in the mountains, but even fully loaded (going over the mountains from Oregon into Kali) I only had to grab a gear on the long pulls. In town it seems to get low 20's, but I have a hard time checking the actual milage since the odometer isn't working constantly. All the rowing through the gears drops it a bit. I've long thought that a 5 speed with a closer ratio trans would be better than the 4 speed I have, but I'm not going to try to trump hundreds of German engineers.

    So I think these are just fine for some swaps. Though I have thought of putting a 617 in my car and swapping the 616 into my Dodge Roadster. Probably get 40 mpg out of that thing! Anyway, they aren't a powerhouse, but they are by far reliable, which is the biggest reason I have mine.
    25 Dodge Roadster
    66 Dodge D100
    67 Dodge W200
    76 IH Scout 2
    81 MB 240D

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    I have an 84 Mercedes S class (300SD) with the 5 cylinder. If I was going to adapt it to a GM tranny, an auto with lockup or manual would be the only options. Manual tranny would make the 617 a little bit better to drive as you could rev it up and get it in it's powerband more..... The MB auto lugs the engine too much and that's what makes em a dog... If you get into the throttle all the way so the shifts are delayed longer, then the car can really move. And, unlike the cummins, these babies are good all the way out to 5500 rpms STOCK! I know, I've been there!

    There are guys who are getting 300+ hp out of these engines and keeping them together..... Though if you need HP, then it's cheaper to just go with a cummins from the start... But if you in the market for a 175 hp diesel with a really wide rpm range, good highway mpg, and rock solid longevity, these diesels are the last word....
    -Matt

    1984 Mercedes-Benz 300SD Turbo Diesel - 240,000mi
    1995 Chevrolet 1500 4x2 6.5L Turbo Diesel - 168,000mi - Soon to be Cummins
    1988 Chevy C3500 Cummins; Billet Auto, Twin Turbos, and lots of other stuff.. shooting for 650+ HP
    1950 Chevrolet Loadmaster 2ton - Future 2wd Pulling truck

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    Say, do you think this engine could bolt to a dodge and/or chevy automatic easily ??? I'm looking for something for my Dakota 4x4 that won't require reinforcement of the whole front (as a 4BT would).
    When in doubt, drop back 40 yds, and punt.
    When ALL else fails, read the instructions.
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    Default Question and Hot Tip for Deerefanatic.

    Deerefanatic: Does your 6.5 have a TH400 behind it? If so,does it have a vacuum control valve on the Injection Pump and use a VAC Modulator to control the shift points of the TH400 like your Benz does?

    I've been looking at this as a way to get around the Mechanical stop/ modulator my TH400 came with, and be able to control shifts with throttle.

    Here's a HOT tip: if your Benz trans doesn't want to stay in a given gear thru midrange by just using the throttle. There is a TEE in the big plastic vacuum line from the vacuum pump to the brake booster. The TEE I'm talking about is just after the big line goes thru the cowl, and right before the white plastic check valve. This is where the vacuum for the trans control is taken off. If you disconnect the white plastic line, there is an orifice in the TEE that gets clogged. You take a large needle and feel around in the TEE until you find the hole (kind of like..?) this will unplug the orifice, reconnect the line, and the thing will shift really well.

    Mine would hardly stay in a lower gear until we did this. Now it will stay in gear til you lift the throttle then it shifts. If you lift in second under hard acceleration it will always skip 3rd, and go to 4th . If you don't lift in 2nd then you can control the 3rd to 4th shift with the throttle nicely.

    My 83 300SD also has 240K on it, like yours.

    Randy
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    No, my 6.5 has the 4L80e electronic in it..... I believe all the actual 6.5's did. Although the 6.2's had the TH400...... The pre-93 6.5's that had mechanical injection pumps had 4L80e's too.. But had little stand-alone computers from the factory......
    -Matt

    1984 Mercedes-Benz 300SD Turbo Diesel - 240,000mi
    1995 Chevrolet 1500 4x2 6.5L Turbo Diesel - 168,000mi - Soon to be Cummins
    1988 Chevy C3500 Cummins; Billet Auto, Twin Turbos, and lots of other stuff.. shooting for 650+ HP
    1950 Chevrolet Loadmaster 2ton - Future 2wd Pulling truck

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    No, I don't think the 617 Benz engine can be easily adapted to a dodge/chevy tranny.... There's just no aftermarket making adapters... It's a matter of if you want it, you have to pay to have a machine shop make you the stuff.... That is, until now.... So now it's just a matter of money!

    I think you'd be better off have an adapter made to couple your transfer case to the Benz Automatic.... It's a GREAT transmission (no overdrive though.. ) and incredibly stout.... The guys who are doubling and tripling their engine horsepower are doing NOTHING to these autos and they take it like they were meant to handle that sort of power....
    -Matt

    1984 Mercedes-Benz 300SD Turbo Diesel - 240,000mi
    1995 Chevrolet 1500 4x2 6.5L Turbo Diesel - 168,000mi - Soon to be Cummins
    1988 Chevy C3500 Cummins; Billet Auto, Twin Turbos, and lots of other stuff.. shooting for 650+ HP
    1950 Chevrolet Loadmaster 2ton - Future 2wd Pulling truck

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    I've got to find something with a 6.2 in it and see how they controlled the trans. I'm pretty sure it can be done as Boots4 has found a Delco vacuum valve, and is doing it to his 4L80E. He used a Ford electric vacuum pump.

    www.seriestrek.com is the guy with the 2 LR"s with Benz motors. He has some adapters, but I believe they all require the 240 manual bellhousing. I think they are scarce.

    I personally would really like to do the 616 motor with a add on turbo in a CJ3B. I think the personality of the motor would be well suited to this application.

    I don't see the 617 motors being really all that good in a 1/2 ton pickup. (4BT time) We all need to remember that these are CAR motors, and they are designed to push cars around. Trucks are a different story. But a Jeep XJ or Grand Cherokee, Durango or other mid sized SUV could be right in the sweet spot for the engine. The AMC Jeep 6's had 118HP, and the newer ones were 190HP. so the 617 engine with 115hp would move these cars just fine.

    I read a story in my new Costco "Mercedes" encyclopedia I just got($14.95). It talked about the 300SD's primary goal was to lower the companies overall mileage rating for the US MARKET, and to provide taxi cabs for Europe. Apparently the vast majority of 300SD's came to the US. So we should have parts for along tiime.

    I just read another story in the same book about the Mercedes C111 which originally had a 3 rotor wankle engine. MBZ put a 617 motor with 190 Hp into this chassis, and set 13 diesel records and 3 absolute records including 5,000 miles at 156.9 mph !!! Another record set was 2,345 miles in 12 hours averaging 195.4 MPH and at 14.7 MPG! This was all done at the high speed test track at Nardo Italy in 1976, 7 years before my car was even built!

    Now 31 years later we are putting these engines in all sorts of vehicles, mainly because we can afford them. My 300SD was $45,000 new in '83. I still couldn't afford that much for a car today.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-18-2008 at 03:49 PM.
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I've got to find something with a 6.2 in it and see how they controlled the trans. I'm pretty sure it can be done as Boots4 has found a Delco vacuum valve, and is doing it to his 4L80E. He used a Ford electric vacuum pump.
    My Dad had a GM Pickup 4x4 with a 6.2L, the tranny was mechanically controlled, not vacuum. In talking with the trans shop, they said the mechanical "modulator" replaces the vacuum one when you go from gas, to diesel. It also is calibrated for the lower RPM range, than the vacuum one is.

    There's nothing wrong with the mechanical unit. It shifts fine.
    When in doubt, drop back 40 yds, and punt.
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    Where there's a will there's a way, or a bigger hammer ! ! !

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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I've got to find something with a 6.2 in it and see how they controlled the trans. I'm pretty sure it can be done as Boots4 has found a Delco vacuum valve, and is doing it to his 4L80E. He used a Ford electric vacuum pump.

    www.seriestrek.com is the guy with the 2 LR"s with Benz motors. He has some adapters, but I believe they all require the 240 manual bellhousing. I think they are scarce.

    I personally would really like to do the 616 motor with a add on turbo in a CJ3B. I think the personality of the motor would be well suited to this application.

    I don't see the 617 motors being really all that good in a 1/2 ton pickup. (4BT time) We all need to remember that these are CAR motors, and they are designed to push cars around.
    There are a lot of similar small diesels pushing trucks around in the world, though our conception of what a real truck is often differs than the rest of the world's. Mercedes Jim's Land Rover was originally powered with a 85hp 2.6l I6 and that was considered a powerful engine- the power option vs. stock 2.25l 77HP 4 cylinder.

    Land Rover's engines even today aren't particularly powerful by US truck standards:

    LR 200 tdi (1990 - 1994 model years)
    111hp @ 4000
    146 ft/lbs @ 1800

    LR 300 tdi (1995 -1997 models)
    113HP @ 4000
    195ft/lbs @ 1800

    LR td5 (Def) (1998 - 2006 models)
    121hp @ 4200
    221ft/lbs @ 1950

    LR 2.4 diesel (current engine for Defenders)
    121HP @ 3500
    265ft/lbs @ 2000





    http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/enginePwrSpecs.htm

    So in light of that if you have a vehicle that fits within this range of vehicle size/weight a 617 turbo isn't really that bad a choice, I think one could argue it is a better engine in some respects than any of the original LR ones as well. Performance isn't going to be scorching but it is relative for most people anyway.

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    I agree with you about the LR engines, they are all pretty weak. The most power any of them had was the 215 Buick V8 they bought from GM in the 80's, they used it in everything they made for along time. The F-heads were about as powerfull as a Jeep F-head.

    I think the reason they all have pathetic diesels is because we are just about the only place on earth where you can drive at freeway speeds for long distances. Also nobody builds larger displacement diesels in Europe that are suitable for this application. The whole continent is 1500 miles wide and 1000 top to bottom. The fuel price thing has a big influence too. I guess they just dont need the power.

    I'm curious what a Series 109, or a Defender 110 weighs empty. I bet they are well over 4000 lbs. My 300SD weighs about 4K but it has got superior aerodynamics, so 115hp moves it just fine.

    I don't know who is making LR diesels now, I think they used to be Perkins.

    I just read a story about a complete ground up resto on a early LWB Defender. They converted it from SWB to LWB during the build. They also spent some serious money doing it. I believe it was on the Pangea website. Anyway they did a beautiful job on the truck then they put a LR diesel in it guaranteeing it wouldn't get out of it's own way (In Colorado). It immediately self destructed and they had to buy another engine for it$$$$$.
    I don't understand why LR doesn't use BMW diesels in their trucks, BMW owns LR in the first place. I know alot of the South African built LR's from the 90's had BMW gas 6's in them. Maybe they do an I just don't know about it.

    The newer 602/603 Benz motors are considered to be as reliable as the 616/617's are. I don't agree with that due to the electronic EM system, but what do I know. I do Know that there are alot of electronically controlled diesel out there now and more coming everyday. And no mechanically controlled ones for the road ever again.

    Jim says his 109 moves along just fine, he'll probably take a trip in it this summer so we'll find out how it works then. Thanks for the link to Teri-Anns website. There is a wealth of info and good ideas there for the LR guys and creating an expedition vehicle. I loved the Dormobiles. check it out.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-28-2008 at 07:47 PM.
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I agree with you about the LR engines, they are all pretty weak. The most power any of them had was the 215 Buick V8 they bought from GM in the 80's, they used it in everything they made for along time. The F-heads were about as powerfull as a Jeep F-head.

    I think the reason they all have pathetic diesels is because we are just about the only place on earth where you can drive at freeway speeds for long distances. Also nobody builds larger displacement diesels in Europe that are suitable for this application. The whole continent is 1500 miles wide and 1000 top to bottom. The fuel price thing has a big influence too. I guess they just dont need the power.

    I'm curious what a Series 109, or a Defender 110 weighs empty. I bet they are well over 4000 lbs. My 300SD weighs about 4K but it has got superior aerodynamics, so 115hp moves it just fine.

    I don't know who is making LR diesels now, I think they used to be Perkins.

    Land Rover makes its own diesels and always has, they have always been 2.25-2.5l I think even the TD5 is 2.5l displacement though 5 cylinder. One consideration is that various countries apparently tax vehicles according to engine displacement and I think there is a threshold ~2.5l in Italy for example, thus they try to extract as much performance from that displacement. Land Rovers are also geared sort of strange from an outside perspective. Unline other manufacturers who use a variety of ring and pinion ratios Land Rover only really uses one, 3.54, however they use 1.6:1 1.4:1 or 1.22:1 for a high range ratio in the transfer case instead of the 1:1 that nearly everyone else uses.

    As for weight unladen, LRs used to be pretty light. The old Series Leafsprung LRs, started at ~3000 pounds, and 109's were ~3900 if I recall correctly. Light by today's standards. The modern coil sprung Defenders are heavier thanks to the more modern goodies, but not a lot heavier.

    [edit]

    I looked up the weights, with the older series Land Rovers- the leafsprung trucks- the 88" trucks were 2,953 lbs,
    109" basic(3 door) 3,301 lbs, and
    109 5 door station wagon (like Mercedes Jim's) 3,752 pounds.

    With the newer coil sprung trucks the 90" Defender is 3,560 pounds,
    and the 110" Defender is 4,848 pounds.
    Last edited by Yorker; 12-29-2008 at 11:31 AM. Reason: more info

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    Oh yeah, LR doesn't use BMW engines because BMW sold LR to Ford, which is why the new Defender uses the 2.4l diesel from the Ford Transit van. Now Ford has sold LR and Jaguar to Tata Motors of India so who knows what direction they'll take.

    LR did use some BMW engines in South Africa in the 1980's I think, there was some special arrangement with BMW for that- some local reason- It is akin to the LRs in Australia that used Isuzu 4bd1ts? in the 1980's.

    Land Rover's 200TDi which evolved into the 300TDi then the design was moved to Brazil where International continues to make it aas the 2.8l HS or something to that efffect- I believe it is the engine that is used in the Icon:
    http://www.offroaders.com/directory/custom/TLC-Icon.htm

    so anyway- though the 617 turbo MB engine is small by US standards I don't think it is a bad choice for a lot of applications. It would be neat in a CJ-6 or CJ-8, Ford Ranger, heck even an early Bronco or Scout 80.

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    Yorker: I talked to the new LR guy at Advance Adapters today, Pretty savy guy. He told me all of the same stuff you said about the motors and lineage etc.. I was taken back by 4800lbs. for the 110.

    I loved Teri-anne's website there is a bunch of classic stuff there. It is a good read.

    I was saddened to hear LR sold to INDIA I don't see anything good coming of that. Let's hope I'm wrong.

    I think a 617 in a light fiberglass CJ7 would be a good setup.. If I ever wreck my 300SD that's where the motor will be going. I just happen to have a glass 7 body sitting out behind the garage.

    Randy
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    yeah 4,800 pounds seems heavy particularly when you compare it to the weight of a 109 stationwagon- maybe 4,800 lbs is for a NAD D110 with the external roll cage etc? It is kind of hard to believe it is nearly 1000 pounds more than its predecessor!

    I'm into the early leafsprung trucks so I'm not well versed in the coilers.

    as for LR owned bu Tata- I think that is the way of the future. Ford was purportedly losing $1 Billion a year with Jaguar, they needed to throw something profitable in to make the the deal and Land Rover became that chip. So far Tata has claimed they'll leave things alone. Personally I'd like to see them get back to their roots with the Defender series as a real utility line and stop emphasizing the luxury nature of the LR line. Maybe if nothing else it will ensure that a basic LR Line remains in production longer than it would have under Ford.

    So it may actually end up being for the better in the long run- who knows? Look at how long Mahindra made the CJ3B when the rest of the world had ceased production!

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    I have to say I prefer India over China. Can you imagine what the chinese would to LR. In fact I'm surprised they aren't producing 50's LR's already, they like bringing back the oldies but goodies, but made worse than ever before. Check out the Chin-Jin it is a knockoff of a pre WWII BMW flathead, I want to say R32?" with side car. A friend of mine brought one back from china a few years back and sold it on eBay Got $7500 for it. It was not well made!

    Like you said maybe TATA will put utility back in the mix, at least they speak the Queens english. I know Defenders were cut from the US line because of no airbags, so maybe they can figure out a way to install them. But maybe you've noticed, almost all of those Mahindra 3B's haven't made their way into the US yet. Damn DOT anyway!

    I have had trouble fowllowing the lineage of the little IH engine I thought it was half of a IH DT366. Guess not.

    I Have only seen 2 ICON's in person (SEMA 08) and both had 350/ or? Chev's in them. Next time I go into the valley I'm going to stop by that TLC place and see exactly what they are doing. I know at $90K they probably aren't going to be selling alot of them, especially right now. They were nicely made, and had all the right parts, but the only ready market I see for this product is to rich people that want a custom Toyota FJ 40-45 and can't build one themselves, or maybe "Blackwater" who is always looking for ways to spend it's considerable moneys.

    The whole reason why this website exists in the first place, is because people can't buy what they want here in the US. And the biggest problem this market has, is there is too much political intervention. I don't see it getting any better any time soon.This is why we are not seeing diesel cars. In fact if you look at all of the vehicles that are produced for use everywhere in the world but here, you can really see the effects of the political medeling. Most of these utility models would sell well here too.

    I think if we can make it past Dooms day 12/21/2012 then we might have a chance. But I see hard times ahead. I just hope I can finish mine before everything closes down around us.

    Randy
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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