the most bada$$ mercedes turbo diesel for swap?
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Thread: the most bada$$ mercedes turbo diesel for swap?

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    Default the most bada$$ mercedes turbo diesel for swap?

    what is the best turbo diesel engine for power and performance? what year of car did it come in? anything in particular to look for? i want to use a mercedes motor for a swap into another car.
    what is the most reliable most awesome mods and setup that can be done on the engine. what horsepower numbers can i expect? i want a totally bada$$ mercedes diesel that is trouble free and can be driven coast to coast with no reliability issues.
    thanks!

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    Buy a new one.

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    why say that? you know i am not asking about new ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by encyclopediaditionary View Post
    why say that? you know i am not asking about new ones.
    I say that because your wish list is completely unrealistic with anything but a chipped up brand new mercedes.
    Your wish list is unrealistic even for someone with $100k to spend and a whole room full of people with the skills, knowledge and training to make such a project happen.

    You want the best turbo diesel for power and performance while keeping full reliability, those are the ones they're making right now.
    You want it to be mercedes, then a brand new mercedes is your only option. It's also your cheapest option.

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    buy a cummins

    seriously, the OM617 is supposed to be a pretty good engine. not sure it's as awesome as you are looking for but i haven't played with one. Once i am done with some of my projects I want to pick up an old MB diesel and put it in a little pickup, Jeep Comanche or S10 or something... little commuter truck of sorts.
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    i think the best years for them is 83-85. they put out about 125 hp in those years and are super duper reliable and simple to work on.
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    Default Desertation on Mercedes Benz 300SD Diesels

    Mine is an 83 300SD. It is very reliable, It has 240K on it which is "lo mileage". I will drive it until the wheels fall off, and then I will put them back on and drive it some more. It works really well, it looks really nice, and I like it alot. I appraise RE and additionally it makes me look competent. It is also one of the most difficult cars to work on I have ever owned, because at MBZ "Engineering makes everything else irrelevant". I have a really good buddy from Poland who is a MBZ mechanic, and I have him do the really difficult stuff.

    I have considered putting the engine (should I wreck the car) into a CJ7 Jeep. Which had a AMC 6 with 118HP. The 83' 617 motors had 115HP 84-5 had 125. Both have good torque, and conceivably would work well in a Jeep baised towards street type operation. There could be some problems adapting the motor to common transmisions and the MBZ (ZF trans) wouldn't work well in a Jeep. But the biggest problem is the oil sump is in the front of the engine and is completely in the way for everything except the car it was designed for.

    These engines are extremely well built, and they have several real cool features that make them last well, like nitrided cranks and cams. However, the biggest problem they have, is people think they are such good cars you don't have to take care of them. And regrettably most people don't! I looked at, at least 50 cars before I bought one. Most have been shamefully neglected by their owners, which usually are cheap skates. IE diesel fuel was always cheap before recently. My car cost $45K when new in '83. And people that paid that much felt they shouldn't have to spend any more on maintenance, so they generally didn't. The 300SE gas car in '83 was $36K so there was $9K premium for the diesel engine, and it is a fine piece of machinery, and IF taken care of, will run for alot longer than you will.

    I use new parts(seldom from MBZ) and good used parts, especially when you need an expensive item like, an engine, trans, AC pp, final drive. Something needs attention almost all the time. Usually it's minor stuff something comes loose or falls off, but it still must be fixed or the car goes to ****. It took me almost 5 years to get it to where it only has a few minor things not working, and it is virtually impossible to get one to not leak oil from somewhere. Tachometer refuses all attempts to correct, and I blew a PS hose today so there is 2 more things on the to do list.

    If you blow the engine up you can buy a good used MBZ engine at the MBZ junk yard in Sun Valley CA for $1200, and you get to watch it run on an engine stand. A complete long block rebuild is out of the question, because a long block for this engine from Metric Engineering is $7000. The complete cars are worth from $2500-4500, so that's not gonna happen. A truely exceptional car might bring $6K, but you better know what you are looking at, because alot of owners "think" they have exceptional cars, and want top dollar for crap.

    When you run into parts you can't get in the aftermarket, and have to go to the dealer, Look out. There is nothing cheap at an MBZ dealer! maybe fuses.

    As far as hopping it up. Forget it! They do do it in Germany, but these cars were made to be really nice economical luxury transportation cars for people (executive types) who needed to drive alot, and the machinery is as reliable as is physically possible, the way it is. The car weighs 4000lbs and another 10-15 HP ain't gonna do anything anyway. It moves down the road just fine, not a hotrod, not a slug just a good reliable family sedan. At 70MPH mine gets 27-29mpg, which is damn good for a 4000lb car. They are NOT the most comfortable car around, but they are argueably one of the best made and safest cars ever built, with the possible exception of the 124 series which many consider to be THE best MBZ ever made. (But they didn't come with 617 motors) I personally would like a 300TD wagon with a 617 motor swapped in, best of both worlds, but probably won't happen, because you need to start with a diesel model and most people want way to much for those cars. I saw a nice one on Ebay a month ago, in Santa Barbara CA. It was a 87 model and it went for $12,500, which is pushing 3X what it is worth.

    Find a good one, maintain it, and they can last for a very long time. Mine had 162K on it when I bought it for $4500. I've probably put another $3K in it, and 80K on it in the last 5 years. I've seen one that had 440K on it and looked better than mine, and mine was garage kept and is in 95% condition with perfect original 25 year old paint. The one with 440K on it was driven 3 times a week, back and forth from Ventura to San Diego, (260 miles one way) and kept in the garage at all times. This weekly trip went on for 19 years! Original engine, original trans, no major work, just normal replacement of perishable parts, and religious oil changes every 5K miles with normal servicing by competant mechanics. It also was kept in nearly 100% condition by the owner, who wouldn't allow it to go down hill, if something was wrong it got fixed. Something that is extremely rare in todays society.

    Rather than swap the engine into something else, I'd just find a good 126 and leave it alone and drive it.

    I'll be looking for a power steering hose in the junk yards tomarrow as mine blew up today and made a mess, and every one wants $110 for a new one, but nobody has one in stock.

    Like anything else, you pays your money and you takes your chances. As far as trouble free goes, it don't exist, simply because "**** happens". And **** happens to 25 year old MBZ's just like anything else, except they cost more to fix. If you really want "coast to coast reliability" I would suggest buying as new as you can afford and also getting the premium plan from AAA. It has unlimited towing, and eventually everything needs it, no matter how good it is,

    cuz **** happens.

    Randy
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    ...the biggest problem is the oil sump is in the front of the engine and is completely in the way for everything except the car it was designed for....
    Good post Randy, and an excellent point made about the front sump. The front sump wouldn't be a problem for any 4cyl IH from the '60s(Scouts, 900C) or errr, ahhh, ummm... a Corvair.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by IHWillys View Post
    errr, ahhh, ummm... a Corvair.
    Can you elaborate, is this a common swap by any chance? I have access to a couple corvairs in need of restoration...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel Durango View Post
    Can you elaborate, is this a common swap by any chance? I have access to a couple corvairs in need of restoration...
    Well, I doubt it's a common swap for the OM617, but Corvairs are commonly swapped from the rear-engine flat-six(or boxer if you prefer...) to mid-engine small block Chevy v8s. Since SBCs use the Chevy bell pattern, an OM617 with the Chev conversion bits on it should bolt right up to the trans axle as an SBC does. Because this is mid-engine, there is no axle or cross member there to foul with the front sump. An inline engine would give even more room on either side to retain a rear seating area.

    I like Corvairs. I expecially like them in spirited mid-engine configuration. I'd like to do up a turbo Buick 231 in one but the OM617 seems almost equally as interesting to me.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by IHWillys View Post
    Well, I doubt it's a common swap for the OM617, but Corvairs are commonly swapped from the rear-engine flat-six(or boxer if you prefer...) to mid-engine small block Chevy v8s. Since SBCs use the Chevy bell pattern, an OM617 with the Chev conversion bits on it should bolt right up to the trans axle as an SBC does. Because this is mid-engine, there is no axle or cross member there to foul with the front sump. An inline engine would give even more room on either side to retain a rear seating area.

    I like Corvairs. I expecially like them in spirited mid-engine configuration. I'd like to do up a turbo Buick 231 in one but the OM617 seems almost equally as interesting to me.

    Ken

    gotcha, i've seen the SBC ones.

    Personally they are alright to me, not a truly desired vehicle, probably has something to do with my age (25). One is a coupe, the other is a spider. the spider would be cool to restore, but i like to play with things too much.

    The two i have access to are in restorable shape, but far from being restored, i have enough projects to keep me busy so i've passed for the time being.
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    I first saw a '67 (the good looking one) Corvair with the mid engine SBC conversion in '73. a school buddy built it. They had a Saginaw 4Sp transaxle which used the same gearset and the normal Saginaw inline trans so all they had to do was flip it over, and it could take 300hp . It had a 327 with 300HP and the thing was fast, real fast!, and since it was built by a Road Racer type, It actually handled pretty well. It had 8 and 10" x 13" split rims with Goodyear Blue streak racing tires. It was also a very good looking car as he used a really clean Corvair to begin with.

    It was however absolutely unbearable to be in for more than 5 minutes. It was noisy (the absolute understatement of the decade), and it got real hot in the passenger compartment. Yes it had an engine cover, with 70's sound proofing and insulation, so he tried. We never drove around with the windows up even in winter, it would gas you to death.

    But with what we know now and the stuff you can buy this could all be fixed. AC would also be a good addition.

    As far as the Benzomatic Diesel swap goes, ehhh,,,this car was cool because it was blinding fast. Blinding fast does not apply to any benz diesel, Audi R10 maybe, but not a benz. They were designed and built to be the ultimate transportation car. The only blinding they did is from the smoke. It would probably get 50 MPG which would be kind of cool?

    Randy
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I first saw a '67 (the good looking one) Corvair with the mid engine SBC conversion in '73. a school buddy built it. They had a Saginaw 4Sp transaxle which used the same gearset and the normal Saginaw inline trans so all they had to do was flip it over, and it could take 300hp . It had a 327 with 300HP and the thing was fast, real fast!, and since it was built by a Road Racer type, It actually handled pretty well. It had 8 and 10" x 13" split rims with Goodyear Blue streak racing tires. It was also a very good looking car as he used a really clean Corvair to begin with.

    It was however absolutely unbearable to be in for more than 5 minutes. It was noisy (the absolute understatement of the decade), and it got real hot in the passenger compartment. Yes it had an engine cover, with 70's sound proofing and insulation, so he tried. We never drove around with the windows up even in winter, it would gas you to death.

    But with what we know now and the stuff you can buy this could all be fixed. AC would also be a good addition.

    As far as the Benzomatic Diesel swap goes, ehhh,,,this car was cool because it was blinding fast. Blinding fast does not apply to any benz diesel, Audi R10 maybe, but not a benz. They were designed and built to be the ultimate transportation car. The only blinding they did is from the smoke. It would probably get 50 MPG which would be kind of cool?

    Randy
    yep, you haven't swayed me towards doing the swap. I like the later 'Vair's as well and both of these are 64's i think.

    I'm still thinking a little S10 for haulin parts and commuting to work as being a good OM617 swap candidate Or just drive it the way it was meant to be driven in the first place I used to see some go for cheap, at least one i saw was running/driving without a title for 600 bucks, they seem to be going up in asking price as of late. could just be people asking more than they are worth as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    ...
    As far as the Benzomatic Diesel swap goes, ehhh,,,this car was cool because it was blinding fast. Blinding fast does not apply to any benz diesel, Audi R10 maybe, but not a benz. They were designed and built to be the ultimate transportation car. The only blinding they did is from the smoke. It would probably get 50 MPG which would be kind of cool?

    Randy
    I hear you Randy. That 50 mpg is a big part of it. And secondly, where I live it doesn't take much engine to go have lots of fun if the cornering ability is there. I do know of the 2 versions I mention that the 231 Buick would be more "fun" but when not out for a "fun" drive, the Benz engine would be more satisfying to me.

    As to the heat, well these are all done differently. I can say I've been in a 305 equipped '67 that was not overly hot. Letting all the hot air out from under the car is accomplished far better in some conversions than others. It really should be no worse than me sitting right next to the 351 in my van if a well insulated cover is in place and good air flow around the engine is achieved.

    I'm not trying to sell anyone on doing a Corvair. I don't think it really is a good choice if it needs to be "sold" to oneself. Corvairs are generally built by folks who "get them". On that note, I recently saw one built by someone who did not "get them". It was a v8 conversion, with the engine mounted up front...

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by IHWillys View Post
    I hear you Randy. That 50 mpg is a big part of it. And secondly, where I live it doesn't take much engine to go have lots of fun if the cornering ability is there. I do know of the 2 versions I mention that the 231 Buick would be more "fun" but when not out for a "fun" drive, the Benz engine would be more satisfying to me.

    As to the heat, well these are all done differently. I can say I've been in a 305 equipped '67 that was not overly hot. Letting all the hot air out from under the car is accomplished far better in some conversions than others. It really should be no worse than me sitting right next to the 351 in my van if a well insulated cover is in place and good air flow around the engine is achieved.

    I'm not trying to sell anyone on doing a Corvair. I don't think it really is a good choice if it needs to be "sold" to oneself. Corvairs are generally built by folks who "get them". On that note, I recently saw one built by someone who did not "get them". It was a v8 conversion, with the engine mounted up front...

    Ken
    Eh, to each his own. I've been working with computers since I was 10, and I've seen plenty of people that didn't "get it" when it came to computers, including one guy that build a computer case out of wood and another that didn't believe in screwing down the cards he put in the PCI/ISA slots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantherman View Post
    Eh, to each his own. I've been working with computers since I was 10, and I've seen plenty of people that didn't "get it" when it came to computers, including one guy that build a computer case out of wood and another that didn't believe in screwing down the cards he put in the PCI/ISA slots.

    Pantherman

    i never put the screws in my hard drives, what does that say about me?

    allways do the PCI/ISA cards though...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel Durango View Post
    i never put the screws in my hard drives, what does that say about me?

    allways do the PCI/ISA cards though...
    I'm just saying, no matter what you're into, there are people out there in the same "field"/group who will do something that really not that many, or no one else likes. Look at those of us here in the "states" that are doing these conversions, it's not the norm. And I'm sure more than a few of your "average joe" would look at us and say we "don't get it" either.

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    Those knocking the mercedes diesels for power haven't been over to schumanautomotive.com yet... Go over there, dig around the Super Turbo forum, then come back and say that an old MB diesel can't make BIG power....

    Your best bet is to get an OM606 Turbo. Unfortunately, it was only available here in the US for model years 99-00... So very rare and $$ engine. It's a 24 valve straight six. Then, you get the mechanical injection pump of of a 603 (the 606's predecessor) and send it to finland to Myna Diesel where they will trick it out for you...... for about $2k...... Then when you get it back ,you put it on the 606 and then start getting yourself a MUCH bigger turbo, intercooler, maybe meth injection, and you can have a 3.0 Liter Mercedes diesel cranking 300-500 hp while still staying very reliable.....

    But, like I mentioned elsewhere, your dollars ahead to start with a Cummins... But if you really want to go the mercedes route, it has and is being done.

    The 617 (the all cast-iron 5 cylinder) can also do bigger horsepower, but do to the head design, it's very difficult to get them past about 300 horse tops without getting really extravagant....
    -Matt

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    yeah, I have a '99 e300 (om606). I am amazed at how much power it has stock, and for mpg, it gets in the high 20's (even though its geared too low for economy). For huge, driveable HP, I suspect this engine would be best with comp. twins as it is even a little laggy stock.

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    Most guys I know are going with a GT37 (6.0 Powerstroke turbo) which is VNT, so it spools fast then opens up on the hi end... The biggest problem with VNT's is that they're hard to properly control... Electronic control is a must...
    -Matt

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    I didn't see if it was mentioned but the beauty of the OM617 also is that it is a high revving free flowing engine. Cruising RPMs idea is about 2800-3000 or so would be my guess (been a couple years since I owned one) so no gearing mods needed which is awesome of course... Hope it helps!
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    Quote Originally Posted by deerefanatic View Post
    Those knocking the mercedes diesels for power haven't been over to schumanautomotive.com yet... Go over there, dig around the Super Turbo forum, then come back and say that an old MB diesel can't make BIG power....

    Your best bet is to get an OM606 Turbo. Unfortunately, it was only available here in the US for model years 99-00... So very rare and $$ engine. It's a 24 valve straight six. Then, you get the mechanical injection pump of of a 603 (the 606's predecessor) and send it to finland to Myna Diesel where they will trick it out for you...... for about $2k...... Then when you get it back ,you put it on the 606 and then start getting yourself a MUCH bigger turbo, intercooler, maybe meth injection, and you can have a 3.0 Liter Mercedes diesel cranking 300-500 hp while still staying very reliable.....

    But, like I mentioned elsewhere, your dollars ahead to start with a Cummins... But if you really want to go the mercedes route, it has and is being done.

    The 617 (the all cast-iron 5 cylinder) can also do bigger horsepower, but do to the head design, it's very difficult to get them past about 300 horse tops without getting really extravagant....
    I suspect you're oversimplifying the process just a tad.

    The Myna pump mods seem necessary as the current pump has virtually no extra capacity.

    As for 300-500hp and very reliable, none of the 300-500hp motors seem to have enough distance to qualify as reliable and it appears many have died along the way.
    Isuzu 4BD1T Junkie.

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    Well, almost ALL the failures are due to the guys taking naturally aspirated motors and turning them into super-turbos.... The N/A motors are missing several important things, namely; they don't have the nitrided cranks, and they don't have the under-piston oil squirters to cool the pistons. Also the cam profile is different....

    If you look at the guys that STARTED with a turbo motor, they have much better success......

    Also, the 617 is NOT a free flowing engine... That is the main reason that most guys choose the 603/606 series as they have a crossflow head, whereas the 617 is monoflow, I.e: intake and exhaust on the same side of the head. It really puts a restriction on flow because the intake/exhaust ports are so small.... It's too bad because I suspect the 5 cylinder would develop more torque than the 6 if it flowed the same...

    But, they are definitely a hi-revving engine, for sure. I've had mine up to 4800 several times.
    -Matt

    1984 Mercedes-Benz 300SD Turbo Diesel - 240,000mi
    1995 Chevrolet 1500 4x2 6.5L Turbo Diesel - 168,000mi - Soon to be Cummins
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantherman View Post
    Eh, to each his own. I've been working with computers since I was 10, and I've seen plenty of people that didn't "get it" when it came to computers, including one guy that build a computer case out of wood and another that didn't believe in screwing down the cards he put in the PCI/ISA slots.

    Pantherman
    Theres a post on YouTube showing a PC in an aquarium tank filled with mineral oil for cooling.

    The NorthStar Caddy V12 engine is the same length as the 350SBC with a "long water pump". 500HP stock out of the crate.

    I was at a car show in Fountain Hills, AZ., years ago. A Sales guy built a commuter vehicle out of a 69 Corvair, to travel the SouthWestern states. It had an OLDS Toronado FWD bigblock powertrain stuffed into the back, balanced over the rear axle. Sat 5 people easily. You could not tell the engine was in there, unless you opened the rear lid.

    Any way to "rear sump" the MB engines?

    Where might I find info on "properly building up" the MB engines for around 250 - 300HP. I'm specifically looking for getting better MPG in an application I'm looking to put together. I need a rear sump, though, a dry one would be nice (any step-by-step references on how dry sumps are actually done?).
    When in doubt, drop back 40 yds, and punt.
    When ALL else fails, read the instructions.
    Where there's a will there's a way, or a bigger hammer ! ! !

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    This is what you want :

    http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/...-st-t-145.html


    Integrated A/W IC manifold. A piece of art to say the least

    Although for torque you want a om352 or om354 if you can find one.
    Last edited by winmutt; 02-06-2009 at 08:08 AM.

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    WoW

    Looks good on the custom stand, but will it fit under the hood ?
    When in doubt, drop back 40 yds, and punt.
    When ALL else fails, read the instructions.
    Where there's a will there's a way, or a bigger hammer ! ! !

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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselcruiserhead View Post
    I didn't see if it was mentioned but the beauty of the OM617 also is that it is a high revving free flowing engine. Cruising RPMs idea is about 2800-3000 or so would be my guess (been a couple years since I owned one) so no gearing mods needed which is awesome of course... Hope it helps!
    I was doing some browsing and found the OM60x series is quite capable, revs high (5k limit). My application is limited to 22" length, from front pulley to rear tranny bolt-on plate. Ideally, I'd like +120HP, but I'm willing to do with a little less. Where might I find physical dimensions & specs for the OM60x turbo'd engines, along with HP/BHP.
    When in doubt, drop back 40 yds, and punt.
    When ALL else fails, read the instructions.
    Where there's a will there's a way, or a bigger hammer ! ! !

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    Default reliable turbo diesel

    I'm putting a 617 turbo from an 80 300sd in my 76 ford pickup instead of the 360 V8. Both are front sump oil pan. My truck is a twin I-beam F150, too light front end for a 4bt even if I had ever found a 4bt for sale in the last 3 years. Mercedes is about 300 lb lighter than 4bt. Mercedes is 110 hp, high winder, I'll change the rear end to 4.1, it needs rebuilding anyway, 160000 miles. I'm going to use the mcd 722 auto transmission, they are very tough and have a 3.68 low, way better than a ford C6. The adapter goes at the back of the transmission, much cheaper. The 300sd is a lovely car, but I don't need another car. I got it for $750, had a bad driveshaft, bad brakes, won't start cold. If I have to put in pistons and liners and rings and prechambers and injectors so be it, it will run another 250000, that is the rest of my life. Mine is an iron head, which allows you to blow a heater hose and not buy a new aluminum head because the old one cracked. 617 engine is all mechanical, a big plus for me, as I have owned two computer cars with flaky electrical problems that no-one could fix because it never happened at the dealer. I changed 7 sensors in the 86 Chevette and still the check engine light would come on and the computer would turn off the air to the catalytic converter, plugging it. Computers can be reliable if the interfaces are opto-isolated, screw terminals on bare wires instead of pin and socket, and all the plug interfaces burn 50 milliamps to keep them clean. Also all power supplies need to be sola transformer isolated from lightning on the mains, and the location needs to be dry. Cars are not built that way. Look at the way the M1 tank is built, that electrical system costs more than a whole HMMV. I've had my 59 ford in water over the exhaust manifold and drive tunnel, drained and changed the fluids, and I'm still driving it 35 years later. THAT is reliability. Nothing flaky about it, the 59 either works every time or not at all because something is worn out. My 240d is proving to be the same way, cold starting is it's only fault and I have a plan to replace some parts to cope with that.
    59 Ford sedan, 4.2LV8, C4, 4bbl, duals
    80 Mercedes 240D "Merceybird" 84 T-bird grill
    80 Mercedes 300SD "Theodin" beautiful in death
    74 Ford F150,360 cracked block,due for Mcd eng above
    Massey Ferguson 245 Perkins, needs rear axle work
    Oliver-Fiat 1465 tractor, needs motor work

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    Jo: the not wanting to start when cold is probably from having some dead glow plugs. Mine has 2 dead right now and is getting hard to start. I'm in CA and the lowest temp the thing is seeing is about 40*F. but it still starts on like 3 cyl and then you rev it a little and it finally catches. Smokes like hell before the other cyls catch

    I've been thru this before and changed all 5, and I'm about to do it again. The one in the back is a PITA, all the rest aren't too bad. Plugs are $13.85 ea. from Performance Products. www.performanceproducts.com 800-243-1220

    The 616 4 cyl. engine is arguably the most reliable internal combustion engine ever built on this planet, the 617 is a close second. That being said, they all have to be worked on and taken care of. There is not one month that goes by that I don't have to fix something on the Benzomatic, if you don't keep up they just go to ****. I have a nice one so it is worth maintaining, but at 245K it always has something falling off.

    We used to have Whataburgers out here but they all folded in the 80's. I liked them, but that was before Fatburger.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 02-22-2009 at 01:41 PM.
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    Jo: the not wanting to start when cold is probably from having some dead glow plugs. Mine has 2 dead right now and is getting hard to start. I'm in CA and the lowest temp the thing is seeing is about 40*F. but it still starts on like 3 cyl and then you rev it a little and it finally catches. Smokes like hell before the other cyls catch

    I've been thru this before and changed all 5, and I'm about to do it again. The one in the back is a PITA, all the rest aren't too bad. Plugs are $13.85 ea. from Performance Products. www.performanceproducts.com 800-243-1220

    The 616 4 cyl. engine is arguably the most reliable internal combustion engine ever built on this planet, the 617 is a close second. That being said, they all have to be worked on and taken care of. There is not one month that goes by that I don't have to fix something on the Benzomatic, if you don't keep up they just go to ****. I have a nice one so it is worth maintaining, but at 245K it always has something falling off.

    We used to have Whataburgers out here but they all folded in the 80's. I liked them, but that was before Fatburger.

    Randy
    Where can I get physical specs on the 616 (length, width, height, weight, etc)?
    When in doubt, drop back 40 yds, and punt.
    When ALL else fails, read the instructions.
    Where there's a will there's a way, or a bigger hammer ! ! !

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