Another 4BT in a Scout!!
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    Default Another 4BT in a Scout!!

    Hello folks-

    I'm not technically new to the forum, but I may as well be. I posted once before, but that was a long time ago. Back then, I had a Scout II that I intended to put a 4BT into, but I didn't have the engine. Then I ran out of money, sold the Scout, and then later found a deal on a Frito Lay van with the Cummins and a Turbo 400 tranny. Now I'm on the hunt for another Scout II, because I really think a 4BT Scout would be my dream ride.

    I've never done a swap before, but I'm doing my homework.... reading a lot here and on the Binder Bulletin.

    I'll be particularly interested in feedback from scout4bta and Cory Smith and anyone else who has put a 4BT into a Scout.

    Here's what I'm planning so far....

    First, find a Scout. (I have located one about 15 miles from me... a 1980 turbo diesel model, with no tires, a shot engine, and a PERFECT body and very good interior.... I'm trying to negotiate for it.)

    Then, pull the engine from the Chevy P30 van and drop the turbo 400. I've read very good things about this transmission, but after reading a few posts on this site, I've realized that an A518, with overdrive, will better suit my purposes.

    So, QUESTION #1: Will an A518 from a cummins Dodge bolt right up to the 4BT? Is there anything, like spline count for instance, that I need to worry about?

    Then, find a transfer case. People seem to like the NP205. I have another friend who is recommending the NP218 (I think).... chain drive and aluminum case...

    I understand, mostly from scout4bta's posts and excellent photos over on webshots, that running the front drive-shaft AND the exhaust on the passenger side is a bit of a pain. And, that a transfer case with a driver's side drop and a different front axle (D60?) makes it easier.

    So, Question #2: Is the NP205 the way to go? Anyone ever used an NP218? What transfer case puts the front shaft on the driver's side, and is the D60 in fact the axle to do this with? Where does one get a D60?

    I am sure I will have a whole bunch more questions as I get into the project, but this will be a beginning. I will try to post pictures when I get going...

    Thanks,
    Christian

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    Christian: Welcome to 4BT Land.

    If you are going to use the NP205 then find one out of a Ford 3/4 ton truck 73-83 ish. In fact, just buy the whole truck. That is the only common version which is drivers side drop. The only negative with the 205 is the lo range is only 1.96:1 however there are 208 reduction box additions from JB Conversions that will get you down to @5:1, which can cure this problem and make it so you have good crawling gears along with appropriate Highway gearing. With an auto trans you are looking for about a 40-45:1 bottom gear, and 18-1900 RPM's at 65MPH for the highway. I don't know about the spline count on an A518 but most Dodge stuff is 29 splines and I think you need either a different input for the 205 or a Spud shaft to adapt. Either JB conversions or Advance Adapters can tell you exactly what you need. You will need a 4WD transmission. If you decide to go with a Manual the NV4500 seems to be the best of all worlds.

    You can also go with an Atlas or Stak transfercase which can be built to your exact specifications and do whatever you want with no other add ons.$$$

    The type of wheeling/driving will dictate which front axle you use. A Dana 44 out of the same truck preferably High Pinion(from a later model) would be fine for the majority of driving and wheeling uses. Like I said above, you can just buy the whole Ford truck and get the Dana 60 rear axle as well, and sell off the parts you don't need. The T18 trans alone will get you close to $1000 from the right buyer. With the T18 or a TH400 and JB conversion 208/205, you can get all of the ratios you will ever need, by only regearing the axles. Drive shafts are included in the deal when you buy the truck and can be to be shortened as needed. @ $75 ea.

    If you are planning on going out to bash rocks and beat the crap out of the truck then a D60 front will be necessary. Once again the Ford 1Ton is the best option for a Drivers Side Drop and you will get a D70 rear as well. Late Dodges have a left side drops too but the Dodge Hubs are completely idiotic, and you are just better off with the Ford stuff as it is more plentiful and therefore cheaper. The 1 ton Ford truck is probably going to cost you a little more than a 3/4Ton Ford just because there aren't as many of them out there. This is worth doing if you can find the truck for less than $1,000-1,500. More and the truck needs to be in better condition so you can part out more of it. As long as the Axles aren't bent and the truck hasn't been filled with water(flood victim). Just about any condition will work out since you have to take everything completely apart to shorten anyway.

    If you aren't planning on beating the crap out of the truck and are going to use it more as a DD then the Dana 44 axles and the Dana 300 transfer case that The Scout II comes with will be fine. The Scouts II's came with either 727 Torqueflite autos or T19 manuals, and I think either will mate to a Dodge Adapter plate off a 6B. The T19 is a T18 with a syncrod granny gear. The A518 might just bolt up to the Scout D300 too. Which would make the swap really easy. (Motor mounts, and exhaust)

    I've never heard of a NP218?

    The exhaust routing can be dealt with in a number of ways.

    Once again AA or JB Conv. can assist you with any of the adapters needed.

    I hope this aims you in the right direction.

    Randy
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robox View Post

    Here's what I'm planning so far....

    First, find a Scout. (I have located one about 15 miles from me... a 1980 turbo diesel model, with no tires, a shot engine, and a PERFECT body and very good interior.... I'm trying to negotiate for it.)
    Sounds like a good donor.
    Quote Originally Posted by robox View Post
    Then, pull the engine from the Chevy P30 van and drop the turbo 400. I've read very good things about this transmission, but after reading a few posts on this site, I've realized that an A518, with overdrive, will better suit my purposes.

    So, QUESTION #1: Will an A518 from a cummins Dodge bolt right up to the 4BT? Is there anything, like spline count for instance, that I need to worry about?
    You definitely want overdrive if you plan on driving on the highway. The dodge overdrive transmission will work if you use the flywheel housing, starter and flexplate from a cummins out of a dodge ram.
    Quote Originally Posted by robox View Post
    Then, find a transfer case. People seem to like the NP205. I have another friend who is recommending the NP218 (I think).... chain drive and aluminum case...

    I understand, mostly from scout4bta's posts and excellent photos over on webshots, that running the front drive-shaft AND the exhaust on the passenger side is a bit of a pain. And, that a transfer case with a driver's side drop and a different front axle (D60?) makes it easier.

    So, Question #2: Is the NP205 the way to go? Anyone ever used an NP218? What transfer case puts the front shaft on the driver's side, and is the D60 in fact the axle to do this with? Where does one get a D60?

    I am sure I will have a whole bunch more questions as I get into the project, but this will be a beginning. I will try to post pictures when I get going...

    Thanks,
    Christian
    I switched my scout over to driver's side drop and I am doing a second scout now and I'm swapping it over as well. The 205 is a heavy, bulletproof transfer case. However the Dodge NP205 transfer case will be passenger side drop. You could use an NP241HD transfer case from a '94 and newer dodge to get driver side drop.
    '77 Scout Terra, Extended Cab, SOA, 4bt, ZF 5 Speed, Ford NP205

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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post

    If you are going to use the NP205 then find one out of a Ford 3/4 ton truck 73-83 ish. In fact, just buy the whole truck. That is the only common version which is drivers side drop.
    OK, got it. If I go driver's side drop, I'll still need a different front axle. Would I be getting that out of the Ford as well??
    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    The type of wheeling/driving will dictate which front axle you use.
    Yeah... That's the thing... What I want, really, is a reliable daily driver. I live in the sticks, but muddy dirt roads are about all I ever have to negotiate, and not often. So... the following information is really interesting to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post

    If you aren't planning on beating the crap out of the truck and are going to use it more as a DD then the Dana 44 axles and the Dana 300 transfer case that The Scout II comes with will be fine. The Scouts II's came with either 727 Torqueflite autos or T19 manuals, and I think either will mate to a Dodge Adapter plate off a 6B. The T19 is a T18 with a syncrod granny gear. The A518 might just bolt up to the Scout D300 too. Which would make the swap really easy. (Motor mounts, and exhaust)
    It never occurred to me that I might be able to use the T19 that is in the Scout I am currently trying to buy. That would make this swap really easy, and I think would be just fine for my daily-driver purposes.

    Can anyone elaborate or verify this... that I could mate the 4BT to the T19 trans that's in there, with the right adapter plate from a 6BT? Can that really be done?

    Thanks,
    Christian

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    You could use a Ford T19 with a Scout T19 output shaft, transfer case adapter and bull gear and use your existing transfer case, but you will really regret not having overdrive. The problem with ford pickup axles is that they are about six inches wider than scout axles and if the front is from a coil spring pickup then the factory brackets are a bear to remove.
    '77 Scout Terra, Extended Cab, SOA, 4bt, ZF 5 Speed, Ford NP205

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    Cory: The axles are wider from the Ford and do have to be shortened. and boy are you right about the coil spring ones. The one in my DeScrambler is a coil spring HP one and it was a complete PITA to fab a left side spring perch for, and I ended up with 2" more lift than I wanted in the front because of it. The bottom of my drivers door is now 38" off the ground!

    However his Scout axles would work fine, and with a 4.0:1 kit in the D300 and 3.55 gears in the axles he'd be fine for the type of driving he wants to do, and more. If he went with the A518 he'd get almost a bolt up and have the auto and OD too, and probably get to keep everything he's got now to boot. The axles might already have 3.55's in them anyway.

    If you decide to sell the T19 it is definately worth a grand, as they are getting pretty scarce, and are still very desirable heavy duty transmissions. Clean and paint before sale to maximize return.

    Like I said there are many ways to deal with the exhaust routing, and if you can simplify the actual engine installation, that is easiest way to go.

    The whole idea of using a Ford truck is you get the axles, trans, transfercase, and drive shafts, all in one package. for cheap. You probably have to mod some of the stuff, and generally you should disassemble everything and clean it up anyway, but it is much better to start with all the pieces in hand than to try to hunt the individual piece parts up while you're building. Plus all of that machinery is a steal at >$1000. I've seen Ford's for sale near me for $500 that had everything in tact. but the 390 was dead. (boat anchor) such a deal. This would be a complete swap package for a number of vehicles like a Flat Fender or Cab Over Jeep Truck, or a 55-57 Chevy pickup, or use your imagination, the list goes on.

    Point here is "package deal" on the running gear = less $$$ in the build at the end.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 11-30-2008 at 06:01 PM.
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory Smith View Post
    You could use a Ford T19 with a Scout T19 output shaft, transfer case adapter and bull gear and use your existing transfer case, but you will really regret not having overdrive.
    The T19 is a four-speed manual, right? I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say I'll miss overdrive....

    C

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    Didn't the T-19 have a different gear spread as well? I seem to remember reading somewhere that the t-19 in the scout diesel had a wider spread between gears to take advantage of the torque/power characteristics, and the narrower rpm range of a diesel.

    As far as the overdrive question. The top (4th) gear in most of these four speed manuals is 1:1. An overdrive transmission gets you something like 0.73:1 in high gear with gives you better gearing for the highway.

    BTW, don't be afraid of running the front driveshaft on the same side as the front driveshaft. It can be done. You may want to talk to a couple local exhaust folks to find out what they can do. I'm running the 4BT in an old landrover which as the front and rear driveshafts offset to the passenger side. I found a local guy that tucked the exhaust up there nice and tight with nothing hanging below the frame and with nothing knocking etc. It would certainly save you some $$$ if you can stick with some of the stuff you already have on the scout. As already stated, if you're not doing a bunch of heavy off road stuff with big rubber, those Dana 44s should be just fine.
    Last edited by slorocco; 12-01-2008 at 07:35 AM.

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    yes the t19 in the scouts came in a wide or close ratio. the wide has a granny gear first. as far as them being worth grand, i'd love to get half that out of the one I've got sitting here. I see them alot for 200.
    the dodge automatics all had 23 spline outputs, as does the jeep dana 300. you can run a dana 300 behind it, and you can flip it to run on the driver side also. good setup for a daily driver I would think.
    i've got a th400 in my scout and it really needs overdrive. tops out around 58mph.
    you can find a drivers drop dana44 in the jeep wagoneers, around 80 or 81 and up I think they swapped to drivers drop. about the same width as the scout, and already springover.
    88 Chevy Airforce crewcab. 6bt NV4500 valair clutch, modified 4k GSK
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    Just for clairification which most of which can be found in the transmission FAQ sticky:

    The T19 used in most of the 4BT P30 vans was a Ford only application pattern.
    These came with dual PTO covers and 90%+ were close ratio fully syncronized.
    AA sells an adapter for converting a T19 from 2WD to 4WD using a Dana 300.
    The adapter/flywheel housing is unique to using only a Ford transmission setup.
    There were no known 6BT's in a factory Dodge application that used a T19.
    The T18 & T19 family were used by various manufactures but used a different input shaft (spline sizes & overall stick out length) and a different transmission to bellhousing bolt pattern.
    There is no direct interchangeability between adapter set families unless you use special aftermarket parts. Ford parts don't fit Dodge applications.

    The Chrysler 727 DIESEL transmission bolt pattern to engine adapter/flywheel housing is NOT compatible with the gasoline transmission bolt up pattern because the transmission case is different.
    Last edited by BobS; 12-01-2008 at 08:10 AM.
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    K204dr: clean that trans up, and paint it black, if it is a Scout trans then find the Corn Binder website, and put it on there. You'd be surprised. I sold a T18 from a Ford on Ebay for $800 2 years ago, had 20+ bidders.

    The Scout T19's are getting scarce. Just put it out there and not be in to big a hurry to give it away. All of this stuff is worth good money, you just have to find the right buyers.

    Randy
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    I guess everyone here probably knows about the Gear Ratio Calculator site, http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html but I just found it, and boy is it useful.

    I went to look at the Scout again today. It has the Warner T19 trans... pretty sure it's the wide ratio. Also has the Spicer/Dana 300 transfer case. And 3.73 axles.

    Through the gear ratio site, I've determined that using the T19 with the existing axles will be way too slow.... 51 MPH @ 2000 RPM in top gear... yikes!

    So, I think the 46RE/A518 or 47RE/A618 is going to work out much better for me. 74 MPH @ 2000 RPM, or 65 MPH @ 1750, without switching the axle gears.

    As might be obvious, I don't care that much about automatic versus manual. The numbers for the NV4500 come out almost the same as with the automatics. I guess I'll make that call when I'm ready to start spending money. The Scout I'm looking at is a manual, so it has all the clutch pedal stuff.

    I'm trying to keep it all simple, so I'm leaning towards the trannys that will bolt up easily to the 4BT, and I think I'm gonna keep the Scout axles, so will probably go with an NP205 passenger side drop (despite some advice to the contrary!)

    I think the Scout can be had for around $1600... which is not dirt cheap, but I think is OK considering the condition of the body (absolutely no rust!) and how close it is to me. However, until I actually get the money in my hand (from selling my 1993 Cummins Ram W250, sadly) I will keep my eye out for a better deal on a Scout.

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    Chris: The NV4500/ 205 setup will be good, but find another way to finance the Scout project besides selling your truck. You'll need it to haul the Scout home, and to move stuff around.

    Sell the motor out of the Scout, I thought you said it is a diesel. you should be able to get good money from a stock Scout freak for it. If you aren't going to use the T19 sell it. Buying and selling junk is the best way to raise money for a project, just spend the money you make ONLY on the project.

    And heres the hottest tip of all: That delivery van sitting out back has about $2000 worth of scrap aluminum in it. Get a metal cutting blade for a skil saw and start chopping it up. It also has a 14 bolt rear axle worth $2-500, It has 6 wheels and tires $200. There's a bunch of piece parts you can reuse or sell. You can reuse the Hydroboost or sell it, the list goes on.

    By selling your truck you loose your reliable transportation and hauling capibility. If you keep it until after the Scout is finished and you don't like the Scout, you'll still have your truck. If you really like the Scout, you can sell the truck then.

    Trust me on this. It may seem like this is the only way, but I assure you there is ALWAYS another way. Most of the older guys here will agree with me on this point.

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 12-01-2008 at 07:17 PM.
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

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    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    Wow, Randy, thanks for taking the time to give me your good thoughts on the idea of selling my truck!

    The decision to sell the truck has in fact been an agonizing one. But....
    #1, my girlfriend (who may as well be my wife.... we just haven't gotten married!) already has a '93 Dodge Cummins, which I can use whenever, and which is more reliable and has less miles than mine,
    #2, I do have an '85 Chevy Kodiak (big truck, 27,000 GVWR, with a knuckle-boom crane) which runs well and gets 10 MPG, which is not THAT much worse than what my Dodge gets,
    #3, I have two great motorcycles and my girlfriend and I share a 2000 VW diesel beetle,
    #4, the diesel in the Scout is probably not sell-able, as it apparently needs a rebuild and the injection pump is missing (the lady is not sure if she'll be able to find it...)
    and #5, where I live the aluminum box van is worth more to me as protected storage than scrap metal (although the dollar value for all that aluminum that I had heard was around $700.... $2000 does make me think twice about just chopping it up...)

    I have thought of a few other ways to scrounge up the money, and I'm still hesitant to sell the Dodge, but after much deliberation I think that if I can get some decent money for it then selling it is probably the thing to do. I'll update on here after the eBay auction is over....

    Thanks again,
    Christian

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    Can't fault you for wanting weather resistant secure storage. You might call your local recycler though, just to see what it's worth, as I have seen some wild variations in what they will pay. (less here 'cause we're closer to where it ends up )
    Erik
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    the scout t-19/d300 combo is highly sought after the D300 with bull gear alone usually fetches $450. the wide ratio t19 is also sought after by cornbinder finatics you should be able to get around $400-$500 for the tranny also and then sell the motor for 100-200 you've just cut the body cost down significantly.


    along with your scrap prices on the aluminium you should do ok
    FSJ cherokee chief 4BTA 120 hp ve, piston lift pump, 50 hp lenny's injectors, 03 dodge HY35/9, 1991 dodge intercooler, 13" clutch & dodge nv5600 flywheel, nv4500/D300 3.54's D44 Ploks F&R
    4bt info

    2003 Dodge 3500 4x4 6 spd........

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    Scout t19 input shaft length is longer than fords. To bolt it up you will need and adapter/spacer. I have such and adapter to bolt the scout trans up to the nv4500 bellhousing. You will want the overdrive though. I had that adapter in my scout 800 using a t19 wide. I sold the wide, they are worth an easy $500 and am installing an nv4500. Unless you are careful, the diesels torque will tear up the drivetrain. I have already upgraded the rear to a d60, the original scout d44 wasn't up to the task in the end. In the beginning I thought it was. Don't try to skimp up front, it will still cost you in the end.
    As far as exhaust I fabbed my own using summit mandrel tubing. Good luck.
    Chris.

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