Looking for a hydraulic pump setup
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    Default Looking for a hydraulic pump setup

    I'm looking to build a hyd winch setup into my Scout. I'm not liking the belt drive setup or the PTO. So it looks like I need a engine powered pump, Oh and I don't want it to turn all the time wasting power. I wouldn't mind driving it off the harmonic balancer but I'm not sure how to turn it off and on (easily). Any ideas out there? -wingnut13

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    Check out www.surpluscenter.com. In the hydraulics section they have clutch pumps which run an A/C compressor style clutch for on/off operation.

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    Yea, those are the style I want to stay away from. Thanks. -Wingnut

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    I have a 5.9 cummins that has a fisher plow. it has a barnes hydraulic pump running off the damper. It is actuated by an electric clutch similar to an A/C pump. I don't know if they still make the parts but I do now Barnes still makes electric clutch actuated pumps and if nothing else warner makes the clutches. hope that helps.

    Mike

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    You could run it off the power steering pump. that's how "milemarker "winches are run.

    Since you probably have Power Steering anyway there would be no more drag than already there. And it is much easier than running a PTO off the trans, or a belt off the Vibration Damper. Since you don't like the belt drive, it kind of narrows your choices to the PTO or the PS pump.

    Randy
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    Here is the fisher pump setup for the dodge.

    http://www.fisherplows.com/pdf/6455_090694.pdf

    I am using the later clutch pump as seen here. it never came on the 5.9 but it fits.

    http://www.fisherplows.com/pdf/6460_071995.pdf

    When it comes time to re-do it I will go with one of the MUNCIE setups like my buddy put on his wrecker.

    http://www.munciepower.com/Products/...r/Pumps/PF.htm

    These are a lot more versatile and likely less $$>

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnut13 View Post
    I'm looking to build a hyd winch setup into my Scout. I'm not liking the belt drive setup or the PTO. So it looks like I need a engine powered pump, Oh and I don't want it to turn all the time wasting power. I wouldn't mind driving it off the harmonic balancer but I'm not sure how to turn it off and on (easily). Any ideas out there? -wingnut13
    Check with paul in new york, he did the hydraulic winch in one of his m 37 power wagons. look in the build up threads, he`s got lots of pics!!!
    71 vega w/ sd22 nissan diesel turbo, 5speed, 50 mpg. 70 chev suburban 4x4,60/14bolt ff,divorced 205,pto lu-4 winch,3.73 detroit locker rear, power loc front, 35s on 16.5"x12" weld wheels, 2400 allison 5speed,triple disc billet torque converter, tcm by Brayden Fleece, 8.2 Detroit fuel pincher turbo v8, 18 mpg. `94 suburban 1/2 ton 4x4, 3.42,`92 6bt, 47rh, Hx35/12cm, 4" exhaust,3200 spring.16/17mpg city, 22mpg freeway

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    Hey, Never thought of a plow pump. I have a few of those, not enough GPM I imagine though. I really like that setup from Muncie Fluid Power. I may have one of those clutches, I think I could fit that to a bracket and pump. If I do a belt drive that's the way to fly. -wingnut13

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    We are running Hyd. winches on both of our Broncos.
    Using a stock power steering pump on one, it works great, runs cooler winching than driving. I just can't winch with the steering turned to full lock.

    The other Bronco (4BT) we are running a Hyd pump off of the cam drive for both of the winches and for the steering.
    http://www.jbfab.net/index_files/Page709.htm


    A friend is running his winches off of a tranny PTO pump......

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtamulonis View Post
    Check with paul in new york, he did the hydraulic winch in one of his m 37 power wagons. look in the build up threads, he`s got lots of pics!!!
    I powered my Braden MU-2 winch on my 1943 Carryall with my PS Pump. I copied the Milemarker system but used a manual valve. On my M37, I powered the Braden LU-4 winch also with the PS Pump. I purchased the Milemarker high pressure electric valves. Most likly, I will power the Braden LU-2 winch on my 1960 Power Giant, now in build, with the PS Pump and the Milemarker electric valves. All the above mentioned winches were originally powered with PTO shaft drive. I am very pleased with the PS Pump/Hydraulic conversion.

    Go to http://imageevent.com/moosecreekmaple/m37project

    Near the end of the build album are quite a few pictures of the Milemarker 'knock off' with electric valves.

    Paul

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    Looks good. Line speed doesn't look too bad. I'm concerned about using my P/S pump on hydroboost, steering (with ram) and a winch. It seems like a lot of required GPM that it won't be able to produce. Very nice build BTW. -wingnut

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnut13 View Post
    Looks good. Line speed doesn't look too bad. I'm concerned about using my P/S pump on hydroboost, steering (with ram) and a winch. It seems like a lot of required GPM that it won't be able to produce. Very nice build BTW. -wingnut
    Thank You,
    Go tot he Milemarker site. They list all the vehicles and kits to utilize the PS pump to drive the winch. See what you think.

    Paul

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    I am running the Milemarker hydro winch. I like it when it works. I am either going to put electric on it or find a way to put another pump.. Like someone said before it works great until you have to steer somewhere.
    1997 Jeep Wrangler 4bt Cummins
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwTF01PK1iE

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    For the most part on using power steering pump, if you are winching you are not steering and visce versa.
    I have the mile marker hydraulic and I absolutly love it.
    I have even winch for 8 hours straight, no problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotty View Post
    For the most part on using power steering pump, if you are winching you are not steering and visce versa.
    I have the mile marker hydraulic and I absolutly love it.
    I have even winch for 8 hours straight, no problems.
    Absolutely as Rotty says. And if you do need to steer, release the solenoid button controlling the winch valves, make a steering correction, hit the button and start winching again. I do it all the time, its not a issue

    Paul

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    My issue is that when I am climbing rocks and to keep the correct line I have to steer. When on the rock some times I am unable to adjust the steering when it is still so I have to steer while I am winching.. Kinda like what JBFab said..

    for example in the picture below.



    If i keep going straight then I will be off the desired line.
    1997 Jeep Wrangler 4bt Cummins
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwTF01PK1iE

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    Quote Originally Posted by my96z View Post
    My issue is that when I am climbing rocks and to keep the correct line I have to steer. When on the rock some times I am unable to adjust the steering when it is still so I have to steer while I am winching.. Kinda like what JBFab said..........If i keep going straight then I will be off the desired line.
    Call www.agrperformance.com and explain your problem to MATT. He proboably has a solution.

    .

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    MY96Z:
    Do yourself a favor, Buy a Warn 8274. If you are actually going to use the winch frequently on the trail they are the best there is. Hydraulic winches work just fine, and if you were skidding logs in the forrest everyday, or using it for work where vehicle recovery is NOT the primary use, then they would probably be a good thing to have. For a Jeep they just aren't that good a solution, because the thing all hydraulic equipment has in common is the engine has to be running for them to work. If the engine won't run (which is one of the primary reasons you would need to winch a Jeep in the first place) you are stuck.

    If you have dual batteries, and I think you do, you set the battery system up so there is an "A' battery and a 'B' battery . The A battery runs the car, the B battery runs all of your accessories. You go to "Wrangler NW Power Products" for the hook up.

    Both Batteries will charge any time the motor is running, but when in normal operation the winch won't kill the A battery, only the B battery. Also you can use the B battery to start the engine if you kill the A battery, just by flipping a switch. This way you have a battery to pull yourself out of trouble and a battery to restart your engine when you are ready.

    This is not possible with a hydraulic winch. When I saw your picture hanging off a winch line, the first thing that came to mind was hanging off a winch line with a dead engine. If you stall or starve for fuel in this position, which is very likely, you are screwed. I have been is this position, and I can assure you, that all you can do is whine like a little bitch until someone rescues you.

    I have used one of these segregated dual battery systems for 15 years now and it still works perfectly. In fact it is getting transferred to the DeScrambler soon.

    Warn 8274's are arguably the best electric winches ever made, I have NEVER seen one worn out. They hold 150ft of 3/8" cable, and if mounted correctly you could literally hang the Jeep from it and pull yourself strait up 150 ft. I have 2 , both were given to me as junk for free, and both were "reinished" by me and work perfectly. Simple, reliable, cheap to fix.

    Like I said you can't do that with a hydraulic winch. In fact there is nothing you can do with a hydraulic winch you can't to with an 8274, however there is plenty you can do with the 8274 you CAN'T DO with the hyd unit.

    Do yourself a favor, stick with the electric winch..

    www.wranglernw.com

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 04-04-2009 at 07:21 PM.
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    I think Randy is right about the Warn 8274 winch being the best electric winch out there.

    There are pros and cons to both.....

    But you really need to determine what your specific needs are before you base your decision on a statement like:

    "In fact there is nothing you can do with a hydraulic winch you can't to with an 8274, however there is plenty you can do with the 8274 you CAN'T DO with the hyd unit"

    That might be true where he drives. I don't care how good your electrical system is if you are drawing 200amps for very long something’s going to get hot. I don't know if any of us actually have an alternator that will put that out?
    That's where you run into the duty cycle limitation of the electric winch (proving the above statement incorrect)

    I have been on too many runs, elk hunts and search and rescues, and seen melted battery posts, wires and fused solinoids on rigs that had only been pulling for 20 minutes.

    Nothin' worse that being stuck being some bozo waiting for his winch to cool (I'm not bein' "that guy")

    I have to work around the limitations of the hyd. unit since I need long hard pulls, I always have a come-along and a piece of chain in my saw-box If I tip over.

    My2c

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    Before you make any decision on Electric vs Hydraulic winches go to the Milemarker web site. Milemarker makes and sells both Electric and Hydraulic winches. Request their DVD. They do real world comparisons on their Electric, Warn Electric vs the Milemarker Hydraulic. Hydraulic is a hands down winner. You need to watch the DVD to make a enlightened decision. I use the Milemarker hydraulic concept on all my trucks. My M37 does also have a Superwinch Husky 10 Electric on the rear as well as Braden LU-4 hydraulically driven on the front.

    Paul

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    Like I said. Long continuous pulls like skidding logs or dragging an elk up a hillside, or other situations where the keeping the engine running is not going to be an issue, then the hydraulic winch has definate advantages, cooling being the most obvious, and being able to work it indefinately. Also I really like having a pump hooked onto the PTO port on my T98, it gives another lever sticking out of the floor. (I only have 4 on my CJ5).

    Electric winches do have duty cycle limitations, however the Warn 8274 has the least of any I am aware of. Another thing that helps is wiring your primary battery system all in 1/0 or 2/0 fine stranded cable, like welding cable. This cuts down on line losses and helps keep heat down. Don't forget to run the same 1/0 from the solenoid pack to the motor, this is where most guys make a mistake.

    The other thing one must consider is Load. The winch is only going to draw 200-300 amps at full load IE 8,000 lbs pull or whatever the unit is rated at. That is the equivilant of hanging a 1 ton truck strait down. Most Jeeps are around 4,000-4,500 lbs. and on heavy pulls you have the option of 2 parting the line to reduce the load by/2. Managing load is the key to controlling heat.

    I have participated in one recovery where we had to drag a very broken Jeep Scrambler back up a steep hillside about 600 yards. We had three relatively weak vehicles, 2 Jeeps with 6's and one with one locker, one open, and a Toyota FJ with a V8 and one locker. The biggest problem we had was with the recovery vehicles not being fully locked. (I love it when guys with unlocked vehicles tell me how their vehicle will "go anywhere" HA!) We winched, then dragged, then winched, so as to cool the winches. It took 8 hours. If we would have had 3 strong V8 Jeeps with lockers front and rear, we could have hooked onto the dead vehicle and just driven back up the hill, and not winched at all. 20 minutes tops. If we would have had a Hydraulic winch on one of the vehicles we could have used the other 2 for deadmen and just winched it out.

    In the end the deciding factor for me was the possibility of getting drowned on a water crossing. This is the one really serious situation where a hydraulic winch can't help you, and not having an electric can cause loss of the vehicle and or lives. Of course if you burn it up then this all goes out the window anyway. So both have their pros and cons, and I guess it all comes down to personal preference.

    This is also a real good reason to not go 4 wheeling alone.

    One last thing,,, I've seen an 8274 with a Hyd motor on it, it is an easy conversion.

    Randy
    DeScrambler: Built from scratch, 4BT,TH400, USGear OD, Atlas 4.3, HP D44/ 4.10 ARB, HP D60/4.10 ARB, 37" MTR's

    It's not how well you do what you know how to do.

    It's how well you do, what you don't know how to do.

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    I want to run a Hydraulic PTO/Winch setup on my '49 Dodge Power Wagon project. The Cummins diesel drives through a NV4500 transmission which has a PTO on both sides of the tranny. The tranny PTO will drive a hydraulic pump (TBD specs), which will in turn drive a hydraulic motor on the input of the Braden MU-2 winch. The winch has a 29:1 worm gear drive. I need help to figure out what PTO and hydraulics to get to make the system actually "work". I care more about maximizing line speed capability than pure stump pulling power. I am more concerned with pulling myself or someone else free when slipping around in/on mud or snow. I am guessing that I need to pull 10000 lbs (Not a dead lift). If I divide that by the winch's 29:1 gear ratio I get about 350 Lbs pulling force (PSI?). What kind of hydraulic specs do I need to make this work? 350 PSI does not seem like much pressure? Am I thinking right here? Can I optimize for pump volume over pressure? I really don't fully grasp the hydraulic design process yet.... Help???

    1949 Dodge Power Wagon Crewcab (Yup, count em', 4 Doors)
    2002 Cummins ISBe170 3.9L Common-rail W/Fab'd SAE#3/Dodge Bellhousing
    1998 Dodge NV4500HD 4x4 Transmission W/6 Bolt Output
    1993 Dodge NP205 Transfer Case W/6 Bolt Input & Much More...

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    If you guys want to run a hyro winch there are several options. 1) a belt or gear driven pump and reservoir off the engine, 2) a PTO driven pump off the transmission or tranfer case like you find on roll backs, and 3) an 12v driven pump like some snow plow unit use. With the first two the engine has to run. With the third one you have sort of a hybrid of electric/hyro. Like Randy says the old Warn 8274 is probably the gold standard of electric winches. They may not be as compact as some models that are hidden behind the bumper but they work. With a winch that is the most important issue.

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