CLUTCH DODGE pilot bearing question
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Thread: CLUTCH DODGE pilot bearing question

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    Default CLUTCH DODGE pilot bearing question

    OK, here goes:

    My Rock Auto ordered clutch kit made it to my door today.

    It came with two pilot bearings, one needle, one oilight bronze.

    Turns out the same clutch kit is used for the first and second gen trucks. I looked up 93 for my app, and 95 to compare. RHINO PAC Part # 05073. Base; Cummins engine; Disc Spec: 12-1/4" OD X 1-1/4" ID X 10T, Flywheel Spec: Flat; Heavy Duty Option; Standard Kit. $232.79. I went with the cheap smaller clutch cause I'm not building anything extreme, just a grocery getter.



    The bronze bushing is for the 93 first gen. BCA/NATIONAL Part # PB286HD More Info {Bushing O.D.=0.941" Width=0.88" Bore=0.753"}
    H/D



    The needle bearing is for the second gen. BCA/NATIONAL Part # SCE1211 More Info {Needle Bearing / Shaft Diameter=0.75" Housing Diameter=1" Width=0.6874"}



    So my question is: Can I have (should I have) my flywheel machined to use the needle bearing, and more importantly will that needle bearing work on my getrag input shaft??

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    you can, but if you're gonna go to the trouble to machine it, get a roller bearing. its way better. valair has them on their website, or maybe someone has a part# and you could get one local.
    88 Chevy Airforce crewcab. 6bt NV4500 valair clutch, modified 4k GSK
    http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=522535
    72 Scout d60/14blt, 4bta
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    I wouldn't use either one, have a roller bearing installed and be done with it.

    When those needle bearings went they ate up the imput shaft.
    1989 D250 CTD, 727HD, D70/3.07, BHAF, DIY Cold air, Tuned VE, 4" exhaust

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    Eeeeeeoooouch!

    Glad I talked to someone first.

    Anyone have a part # for me on a roller bearing that will work?

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    1635-2RS is the part # on the valair one. not sure if thats the actual bearing number or just thier part #. worst case I can get the number off mine when it shows up first of the week.
    88 Chevy Airforce crewcab. 6bt NV4500 valair clutch, modified 4k GSK
    http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=522535
    72 Scout d60/14blt, 4bta
    http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showth...72-Scout-Build

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    That would be great! Thanks!

    I'm going to go search that number you gave me for giggles...

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    Quote Originally Posted by K204DR View Post
    1635-2RS is the part # on the valair one. not sure if thats the actual bearing number or just thier part #. worst case I can get the number off mine when it shows up first of the week.

    Thats the same number Southbend has. Sealed roller bearing.
    1989 D250 CTD, 727HD, D70/3.07, BHAF, DIY Cold air, Tuned VE, 4" exhaust

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    i have a south bend mu13 1.25 con o for sale, comed with the roller bearing flywheel maybe has 4000 miles on it. with the new engine i stepped up to a dual disc. pm if you want a price. Dave
    WWW.PEAKDIESELPERFORMANCE.COM TOLL FREE 1-877-858-7325

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    Quote Originally Posted by 93RamW150 View Post


    The needle bearing is for the second gen. BCA/NATIONAL Part # SCE1211 More Info {Needle Bearing / Shaft Diameter=0.75" Housing Diameter=1" Width=0.6874"}

    This bearing design screams for short life expectancy and failure.

    1. It is open ended to dirt from the environment. One end should be closed and be part of the bearing body. I have heard some who refer to the proper style as a "cup style" and the one pictured as being a "sleeve style" bearing. The cup style was used as the rear bearing on earlier Ford and Delco alternators.

    2. The cup style bearing normally incorporates a sealing lip that seals against the shaft which prevents environmental exposure.

    As I mentioned in previous posts you have a center line/alignment problem if you remove a Getrag transmission from a Dodge Cummins engine and find out that you have a bad input shaft bearing along with a bronze pilot bearing that was milled out by the dull side of a 3/4" highly polished shaft. Replacing the bronze bushing with a bearing will prolong the issue but does not fix the problem. You need to find a good machine shop with a granite layout block and get the height measurements from both your engine adapter and bellhousing. [You should also check the index hole in the bellhousing.] You can't see .030" or even .125" out of parallel between the surfaces. Now calculate the out of parallel tilt/off center line angle at 7 inches of input shaft length.
    BobS

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    90 Dodge W250 6BT Cummins 5 speed Getrag
    91 Dodge W250 6BTA Cummins NV-4500 conversion

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    Your probably absolutely right Bob but I'm not convinced I'm out of alignment.

    Here's why: This trans and adapter set was fine for well over 100,000 miles until the trans burned up and was replaced with a rebuilt trans unit. A local shop did the repair for the previous owner and who knows what kind of job they did. He did tell me they greased the pilot and did not use graphite. About 15,000-20,000 miles later the problem arose. Now I don't know what lead to what but it looks to me as if the pressure plate failed first. Its the old cast unit and with all that weight coasting around in there it chewed up the pilot bushing.

    I checked the input shaft by hand and its real tight and real smooth. The input bearing feels fine to me. If it was damaged by the pressure plate/pilot failure I can't detect it by hand. The only other way I can see this damage happening is if the pilot bearing failed (misalignment cause), then the pressure plate following. I find the pressure plate failure unlikely in this course of events and truely believe the pressure plate failure caused the damage I found to the pilot bearing. Now as to wether the pressure plate failure was due to alignment issues is something I don't know and is entirely possible I would think.

    Like I said before I'm not saying your wrong Bob I'm just not sure your right yet. Please add your opinion to my insane musings as I appreciate your input on this immensely.

    I have a shoestring budget. I can barely afford the parts as it is so pricey trips to the machine shop an hour away for expensive tests are going to break my budget. I don't want to destroy my parts by failing to do this job correctly either. I don't know if I should have my trans inspected but I'm leaning toward no (probably not smart but hey I've been called worse). I want to have my bell and adapter checked but I can't afford it and don't want to set my project back anymore then its already been. I'm torn between wanting to to the best I can for my 4BT and wanting to slap it together and pray, pray hard to the diesel gods for the best of luck with my mongrel creation.

    The input and advice I receive here is all I have when trying to decide what my best course of action is, and what my bare bones bottom line action must be. Please help.


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    From your description I believe the shop made one error that immediately stands out to me. Whenever you replace the bronze pilot bearing you should never apply grease to it but instead soak it in motor oil overnight. The bushings used to be made of an ultra fine semi porous bronze material that upon soaking becomes impregnated with oil. This in effect keeps the bushing lubricated and gives it an normal average life expectancy that is about the same as the clutch assembly.
    BobS

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    91 Dodge W250 6BTA Cummins NV-4500 conversion

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    Yup, when I orderd an adapter bushing from Advance Adapters to put a T% on a Jeep 4.0 I was first versed in the bronze oilight bushings. This guy who sold me the parts told me about the graphite and even that kinda took me off gaurd cause I never heard of that before, I immediately thought back to the soaking of oil overnight. I still have my adapter bushing in an olive jar filled with 10W30 LOL. Never did get around to building that Jeep set. Got side tracked with a 4BT instead. Wish I could use the 4BT in my AMC, but you see its an Eagle and not a CJ. Anyone want to build me a custom frame for free LOL.

    Opening a new thread, I just drove home my 88 crew cab Ford. Time to get wrenching.....

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    Find a Dodge p/u factory service manual. There is a procedure in there specifically addressing engine and transmission alignment. Dowel pin adjustment of the transmission IIRC.
    1989 D250 CTD, 727HD, D70/3.07, BHAF, DIY Cold air, Tuned VE, 4" exhaust

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobS View Post
    This bearing design screams for short life expectancy and failure.

    1. It is open ended to dirt from the environment. One end should be closed and be part of the bearing body. I have heard some who refer to the proper style as a "cup style" and the one pictured as being a "sleeve style" bearing. The cup style was used as the rear bearing on earlier Ford and Delco alternators.

    2. The cup style bearing normally incorporates a sealing lip that seals against the shaft which prevents environmental exposure.
    Correct me if I'm wrong here. When the needle bearing is pressed into the flywheel & bolted to the crank, it is effectively sealed on the engine side. The other end accepts the input shaft...the yellow band in the image appears to be a seal?

    So the bearing would have to be installed with the yellow band on the transmission side to keep the clutch dust out the the bearing.

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    The yellowish area looked like bearing grease on plated metal to me. If it is in effect a seal then it would work but possibly not endure as long as the bronze bushing. Also note that the cup type bearing is still a better application in this case as it retains the grease within the bearing. The open sleeve type will eventually expel the grease into the rear of the crankshaft flange where it does absolutely nothing to keep the bearing lubed and eventually lead to failure.
    BobS

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    90 Dodge W250 6BT Cummins 5 speed Getrag
    91 Dodge W250 6BTA Cummins NV-4500 conversion

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    My bearing (in kit) has the same yellow area and its not a seal, just part of the inner bearing material. Seems all the needle bearings are held in place by a plastic piece that keeps the seperated. This yellow area is just an inner bearing liner at each end. No seal, either side. So at best its open on the input side.

    I've done some more research on these needle bearings and they are absolute crap. The bronze is the way to go for stock, and definately a sealed roller bearing is the way to go.
    Last edited by 93RamW150; 06-02-2009 at 01:33 AM.

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