Isuzu 4BD1 Bell-housings.

[Dougal]

Time to snuff out a rumour.

The Isuzu MSA gearbox that bolts up to the Isuzu 4BD1 engines is not an SAE pattern.

The lower holes are not evenly spaced.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Wow.. I am sorry I have probably been rumor spreader/#1 on this for a long long time..

[eevin]

Is this bellhouse suitable for '91 FJ80 ?
and FJ80 contains 5-speed manual gear and 4.0L 3F type engine.
Or do you know a conversion kit for swaping?
thank you

[Dougal]

I can provide measurements for this one. But I don't have any info on the toyota to tell if it will fit or not.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by dieselcruiserhead

Wow.. I am sorry I have probably been rumor spreader/#1 on this for a long long time..

To muddy the waters futher, it seems the industrial versions of this engine may have an SAE housing. Some time spent in excavator wreckers yards would yield the answer.

[eevin]

Dougal
If you can give me the measurement of ISUZU 4BD1T engine bellhouse, and the other problem is sizes of the 3F engine bellhouse. If you have this, can you give it to me too, please ?
If I can obtain these both measurements, I will manufacture spacers or conversion kit.
thanks for your interest.
[email removed for your protection]

[dieselcruiserhead]

Great I have a customer for you here locally in Utah doing the same swap into an FJ62 Land Cruiser (same trans and engine)...

[dieselcruiserhead]

Originally Posted by Dougal

To muddy the waters futher, it seems the industrial versions of this engine may have an SAE housing. Some time spent in excavator wreckers yards would yield the answer.

I think there are good odds this where this info came from. I eventually talked to a guy who had swapped some non turbo Isuzus into FJ40 Land Cruisers, a guy who was a tech at Isuzu for 40 something years.. Horrible internet skills of course at the time (5-6 years ago), but I trusted his info.. I learned from a guy who is on Pirate and was on the email list under the name COOG about the sae pattern versus the Isuzu pattern slightly different..

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by eevin

Dougal
If you can give me the measurement of ISUZU 4BD1T engine bellhouse, and the other problem is sizes of the 3F engine bellhouse. If you have this, can you give it to me too, please ?
If I can obtain these both measurements, I will manufacture spacers or conversion kit.
thanks for your interest.

I've sent you an email. It may be worth editing your post and removing your email address now to save on SPAM.

Cheers
Dougal

[eevin]

Dogal
I have replied your mail.

[dieseltim]

I just got off the phone with David at "isuzuswapper" he just told me that up till 85 4bd1 (b4 they were turbo) engines came with chevy transmissions and they were "SAE" housings. In 85 they change to Japanesse automatic tranmissions and these took different flywheel housings. So, if you can find an older 4bd1 engine you can get a ring and bolt up what ever domestic tranny you like.

Dougal, can you shed some light on this, is there a chance it is true?

Dieseltim

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by dieseltim

I just got off the phone with David at "isuzuswapper" he just told me that up till 85 4bd1 (b4 they were turbo) engines came with chevy transmissions and they were "SAE" housings. In 85 they change to Japanesse automatic tranmissions and these took different flywheel housings. So, if you can find an older 4bd1 engine you can get a ring and bolt up what ever domestic tranny you like.

Dougal, can you shed some light on this, is there a chance it is true?

Dieseltim

Hi Tim.

I know the US often got vastly different transmission choices to the rest of the world.
I'm located in New Zealand, the trucks we get here are JDM spec (japanese domestic market).

To my knowledge the NPR truck range started in about 85 (my families business has an 85 with a 3.3 diesel) with the NPR57 (3 ton truck with the 3.3l diesel 4BC2) and the NPR59 (4 ton truck with the 4BD1T).
The NPR57 was sold in the US with a 350chev and auto box.

Over here we didn't get autos and we didn't get any petrols either. The first auto I remember being available was with an OHC engine (probably 4F or 4H series) in the 1990's.

Before NPR days, the Isuzu trucks were I think K or KT series. There was a 3.9 non-turbo in there, but I don't know if it was a 4BD1 or not.
4BD1's are found here in japanese tractors (Iseki) as well as road rollers, air compressors, excavators, generators etc. I expect some of these to have an SAE housing as the 4BG1T industrial engine does.

My engine is an 86. My gearboxes are 86 and approx 95 vintage, bellhousing is functionally identical. Possibly a japanese industrial standard (JIS).

[Dougal]

Found this on Ebay.
http://i19.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/a4/45/ee8a_12_sb.JPG
http://cgi.ebay.com/Isuzu-4-Cyl-Dies...ayphotohosting

It's an industrial 4BD1 which has an SAE #3 bellhousing.
Visibly longer and heavier than the automotive bellhousing fitted to most of them (which isn't an SAE pattern)

[afgunn]

OK, you guys have really burst my bubble! I just bought a 04 Dakota with high miles to put a 4BD2TC into (and I hope to still do that!). And "cruiser", I would not beat myself up too much, I have seen several charts claiming the 4BD1 had a SAE #3 bolt pattern! I guess that is partially true depending on WHICH 4BD you are talking about.

I too have just been in contact with David at isuzudieselswapper. He also said the bellhousing is not an SAE #3 and the adaptor ring he sells is for chevy trans. He told me I could recenter and redrill his adapter ring for my small block Chrysler trans. $$$$?

My questions now are these:
1) To be sure, does the 4BD2TC have the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the later 4BD1s? And for sure it is not a SAE#3?
2) Does anyone know of anyone making an adapter for the 4BD2TC to Chrysler small block trans?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by afgunn

My questions now are these:
1) To be sure, does the 4BD2TC have the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the later 4BD1s? And for sure it is not a SAE#3?
2) Does anyone know of anyone making an adapter for the 4BD2TC to Chrysler small block trans?

My answer to #1 is no.
I haven't measured up a 4BD2TC myself, but every other Isuzu 4B series truck engine has had the same bellhousing. It doesn't look good.

For #2 I've got a question for you.
Is the TF727 with the IH bolt pattern the same as Chrysler small block? I have one of those taking up space at home which I could possibly measure up.

[afgunn]

Dougal,
I understand what you are saying about #1. And thanks a lot for the reply. I would say the same at this point in time. I may have to look at the 4BT again for my conversion to diesel.

As for #2, I have it from a GOOD source, PATC, that the 727, 518, 45RFE and 545RFE (my trans) all have the Chrysler small block bellhousing bolt pattern. Excuse my ignorance but, I do not know what the "IH bolt pattern" is. Sorry.

Do you or anyone know what bellhousing bolt pattern the 4BT has? SAE #3 maybe, hopefully?!

[JimmieD]

Please note, there were two Chrysler 727 Torqueflite trans bellhousings, one for small block LA318-340-360, and one for big blocks 361-383-413-426-440. The earlier 318 Polysphere, erroneously referred to as a 'wide block', uses the same bolt pattern as the later small blocks.

What does this 'NPR' refer to? Thanks...

[Dougal]

The TF727 I have was originally fitted to a rangerover. They used an adaptor ring to fit it to the Rover alloy V8, but apparently that 727 was the same as used in an international scout (IH = International Harvester).

NPR is the model of the Isuzu trucks the 4BD1T was fitted to. Like most vehicle makers though, they've kept the same model designations from approx 1985 till now. The NPR with the 4BD1T fitted has model code NPR59.

Here's a pic of the TF727 I have.

[JimmieD]

Thanks, Dougal! That Range Rover V8 is mighty nice for a gasser, being the last iteration of the American Buick/Olds 215 c.i. V8 and all aluminum as you say. I had no idea Torqueflites were ever available for them. That would be a great engine for my little Isuzu truck, the 'Chevy' LUV, but I'd keep the slick shifting aluminum 4 speed.

[Wyle E. Coyote]

The Chrysler 727 used in the IH Scout (and other IH applications), has the starter located on the passenger's side, to accomodate the GM starters they used. It also allowed better clearance in the engine compartment. The Dodge version has the starter on the driver's side. Kinda looks like an IH one in that pict, but it's a bit hard to make see. FYI, FWIW.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by Wyle E. Coyote

The Chrysler 727 used in the IH Scout (and other IH applications), has the starter located on the passenger's side, to accomodate the GM starters they used. It also allowed better clearance in the engine compartment. The Dodge version has the starter on the driver's side. Kinda looks like an IH one in that pict, but it's a bit hard to make see. FYI, FWIW.

Yep the starter fits on the RH side of my one. Definitely IH style.
Were they used or fitted to anything else? Do they have similar internals to the Dodge/Chrysler 727's?

They were only used from about 1983-1985 in the rangerovers, after that they went to a ZF 4speed (HP22) for the autos.

[Wyle E. Coyote]

Yes, the internals of the IH 727 were exactly the same as Dodge. The only differences are the starter location and the bolt pattern. It is IH specific. If it wasn't I'd have already dropped in one of my 440's.

I dunno if they were ever fitted to any other engines. Until I got my Scout I would have said definately no. But now I wouldn't be so quick to say that. There could be others out there with one, I dunno. But because they used adapters for your Rover, who knows where else you might find one?

[coog]

A bit of arcane info that might be of interest to swappers is that I have been told that the TF 727 will bolt up to a Mitsubishi diesel, as found in the Fuso series.I have seen a factory Dodge pickup with a Mitsubishi 6 bolted to the chrysler auto w/o an adapter.
Back to the Isuzu b/h thread. I have a wide collection of these things, but I have recently moved cross - country so I can't verify my belief that the flywheel cover off a 4bd1 (or 4bd1t) and the cover off a 6bd1 are interchangeable.If this is true, one would need only find the cover off the 6 to give you a SAE3 pattern for your 4 cylinder.I am in the midst of a swap using the kit from isuzudieselswappers and a 700r4 and it is well thought out.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by coog

I have recently moved cross - country so I can't verify my belief that the flywheel cover off a 4bd1 (or 4bd1t) and the cover off a 6bd1 are interchangeable.If this is true, one would need only find the cover off the 6 to give you a SAE3 pattern for your 4 cylinder.

Post #13 in this thread shows a 4BD1 with possibly an SAE #3 bellhousing. But it's an industrial engine. The industrial bellhousings are a lot heavier and longer than the truck type.

[coog]

Thanks for your response.I have the 4bd1 with this bellhousing in a 1980 Ford van.It was fitted at a dealership when new, and I believe the only b/h available at the time for either the 4 or the 6.Mine is fitted with a SAE #3 to Ford C-6 adapter ring.My thought is that the back of the blocks are probably the same throughout the run of the BD series, making the flywheel covers interchangeable.I have a 1988 6bd1-t that is mated directly to an Allison a/t that looks to be SAE #3.