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Discussion Starter #21
Thought it held 10 quarts, my buddy was skeptical of that though. Guess worse case is I just drain the fluid and measure it out and toss it back in for the test run. I just have heard that Ether is HARD on diesel engines for some reason but never understood how come. Was maybe thinking that it was a sign of some sort of excess wear on some area of the engine or something. And if these engines, once properly built and running, can fire up at 20 degrees alone then I dont think ill do anything other then a 110 plug in block heater. Never really figured that he intake grid heater could honestly do all that much since in comparison to the intake volume versus fins on the heater unit are so far off I could nt see it being all that much help. As for the turbo that was the plan, just to run the current HX30W and see how it performs and were it has optimal boost versus RPMs. The thing looks like it had already been rebuilt before too and watched a couple videos on rebuilds on them and there SUPER stupid easy to rebuild!. Pretty sure my research also pointed towards the HE221W turbo as well, as for the adapting I believe there is someone out there whom makes the adapter plate to go from the 5.9 manifold to it, only adds about 2 inches between the manifold bolting face to the turbo bolting face, would just twist the turbo further downwards to adjust for fitment within the engine bay. Most likely will end up turning up and advancing the Pump as well down the road so that also would play a factor into the engines performance as well as the turbos reaction rate.

Suppose I could rig up the cooling system as I have a perfectly good radiator form the LS sitting around. May do it if the initial 30 second run doesn't sound right. Thankfully all I'm missing for the fan setup is an alternator its self or at least a pulley where it should be mounted at, but might be able to work without one not sure. Really just wanna see what she sounds like :unsure::oops::oops:
 

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If it needs ether to start I wouldn't bet on running it for 100 hours. Something is wrong. Could be as simple as blown headgasket, but even a very badly blown headgasket won't typically require ether to start. Really roasted rings will still ok without ether normally.

Generally, even the most worn B series will have OK blowby when they are cold. It's when they get all the way to temp that rings don't seal well anymore and they really puff out the draft tube.

Typical scenario for a 4BT or 6BT is the headgasket starts to leak between combustion chamber and crankcase via pushrod opening in block. Engine will still run OK, but may use coolant and will haze more on startup. As it's continued to run this way the coolant use will increase and the gasket may blow between cylinders. If it is run for years blown between cylinders it will erode the block deck between cylinders. That's a situation that's tough to come back from. You can't usually deck the block enough to fix this so a new block is the most economical route. If the engine was continued to be run using a lot of coolant there's a higher likelyhood it was run real hot which will cause rings to loose tension and scuff pistons if under heavy load.

One common tell tale your headgasket is a goner without starting the engine is to check for loose head bolts. Hit the bolts with 125 lb/ft and see how much they move. If you get more than a small movement the head is not tight anymore. Also, often when the gasket blows the shorter length headbolts to either side of the long ones, usually in the middle of the head, will not turn because they are locked in with carbon and rust. You can pull one bolt out at a time to check. If it has soot on the threads your head gasket is toast.

Ether use can also be a sign the injection pump is tired, not building enough pressure to pop injectors correctly. Can also be an air leak on the supply side between tank and lift pump.

That HX30 is not a good one. You will want the HX30 the 130HP P-pump 4BT used. They will always have a V-band connection on the compressor discharge because they were used with an intercooler.
 

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Snuggletough, nothing really wrong with that HX30W. Exactly the same as the one that came on the 4bt P7100 except for the compressor connection. If he stays with the water aftercooler that the best one. The issue with ether as a starting aid was it burned away the oil on the cylinder walls and caused premature ring wear when over used. Modern starting fluid is not pure ether and has additives to prevent the damage. Agree that there should be no need for it in normal starting situations. One main thing is to have good battery power and proper cable size to spin the engine. When in proper tune these things will fire up almost instantly.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Looks like I've finally got some approved time off in 2 weeks, so I'll be trucking the engine to my shop which is in a different state unfortunately. Though it has every little part you could ever need for such a test run. So just prepping the engine for that.

So today I took the starter apart and the fly wheel back off and ensured that the two gears mesh correctly and wont jump a tooth at any point. Turns out a 150 dollar starter works on this SAE#3 bell housing. Secondly re-figured the pulley system so I can run coolant lines to a radiator to it so I can get it fully warmed up to operating temps. All that I had to do was drill another dowel hole for the pin coming off of the tensioner on the back side, its tight enough just barely but the water pump pulley I can still turn with just a finger. Fingers crossed its just tight enough, may take the thermostat out so there is less restriction on the water pump pulley so it can turn easily enough. If not I'm sure I can mount one of the 20 alternators I've got sitting in a crate at the shop haha. Next is a run to Napa to fine the 4 freaking different ID hoses to attach the radiator that I've got just sitting around. Again the shop 'probably' has all of them but don't wanna get in a pinch. Worst case is they get returned. Next is some easy fuel hoses into a gallon fuel can.

Now onto the Ether concerns LOL. Didn't thing about if even the head bolts torque overall and possible suite would even be considered. But I'll pop off the water after-cooler and check those all out before the test run to get an idea of what they look like, thanks snuggletough for the idea. As for the coolant, obviously I didn't get a chance to see what it looked like, but the outlet elbow has a fairly good size junk of rust attached to it. So clearly they were dumping water into it and not distilled water. Thought the oil nor valve covers show ANY signs of water every being in it. So I wanna say I feel fairly confident that it doesn't have a blown head gasket. As for the Pump being the issue well that's a hard one to test or check right now as I dont know what the lines looked like. But i'll also check the water after cooler air hoses and pipes to ensure they are all seating good with no air leaks.

Curious if dropping the pan and putting each cylinder a top of the stroke if i can see enough of the cylinder walls to see how the cross hatching still looks like. Cause If i can then if the ether burnt the oil and causing the rings to wear then I suspect that the cross hatch also would be gone if not some.

And for the water after cooler I may run it for a bit and see how it works out but also having the hood close would be nice as well. HAHA So we'll see when test fitment comes around.

128044
 

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Looks like you've got the belt worked out OK for the test. When you get around to some final work, that fan hub can be revered to put the pulley in a lower position if desired. Something I noticed on your fan hub is the bolt pattern is a 50mm circle. Most of the high mount hubs we see are 60mm. You see both bolt patterns in that cover plate. One issue with that particular hub is it doesn't have a bearing. Not sure how that thing get lubricated. It's pictured in my industrial parts manual but can't for the life of me figure how it can last very long. It doesn't have a grease fitting. Just an unusual arrangement. When you get ready for an alternator, you'll have to determine which mount you need. There was a mount for the GM 10si/12si alternator, Ford Autolite, Delco Remy 21si/22si/24si in J180 style mount, and one for a Bosch alternator. Of course there are 8 groove pulleys for each style too.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
My only concern for the belt setup is if there's enough tension on the belt to be able to grab the water pump pulley as it has very little amount of surface to belt in contact, may see if i can drill some different holes in the tensioner to clock it out and a little further downwards to the actual function of the tensioner can do its thing, cause right now its sitting were it doesn't have any force being applied.

For the fan hub, that's the one that came off of the replacement engine the guy bought, so I'm assuming its just the cheapest one that is available. Though it is serviceable but not greaseable as it currently sits. . We swapped over the original fan hub mount which you can clearly see was the more centered one. But later down the road, since I don't plan on running the fan but rather electric fans, I'll see if I could eliminate that fan hub pulley all together. Then I'll basically have the Alternator, water pump, crank pulley, idler and AC pump as the pulley system. May want to throw on an additional AC pump and convert it to a regular air compressor cause I'll be running air lockers and need air for tires and stuff.

As for the alternator I already have one much like this one...but only the top bracket. The bottom I'm assuming just bolts straight to the block. Also almost certain I've got an 8 groove pulley or a handful of them sitting around as well.

One last thing I need to completely figure out is the throttle and fuel shut off linkage for this P-3000 pump. Definitely don't want it firing up fully reeved out and or even worse running away on me, though I will have a 2X4 and a 3/4 wrench ready to go if it does run away. I have a couple brackets left in the box that I need to puzzle piece together for the pump linkage but does anyone have any set of diagrams of it all. I got some good enough pictures of the shut off solenoid mount but from a P-7000 pump, I'm assuming there linkage setups are identical.
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On the alternator, the bottom support does not attach to the block but to the water inlet neck. If you look you'll see an 8mm hole there for that purpose. There are a couple of different lower braces. One is just flat metal and the other is offset. Depends on which top bracket you have and which alternator brand. The water pump probably doesn't need that much belt contact to spin it. Nothing like the alternator needs. In normal operating position it won't have much more wrap than what you have on your temporary setup. You can eliminate the fan hub but you need to consider where you're going to place one or two AC compressors and how to drive them. Compressors have been mounted on both sides of the block and driven by either belt or direct drive from the gear housing. The vehicle this is going into often dictates where an AC compressor will be located. The Dodge Cummins setup puts the compressor low on the passengers side. Can work OK on a Dodge or possibly a Ford but a GM or smaller vehicles like Jeep don't like it there due to frame width. There is a mid mount AC system that was found on medium duty Ford and Freightliner trucks that is popular. If you buy it outright from Cummins it isn't cheap. Requires a specific AC compressor and alternator. The photo of the yellow engine below shows that kit in place. There was also an AC compressor mount beside the #1 valve cover on the drivers side. Below is a photo of an engine with a vacuum pump mounted there but there's an AC setup that uses that same position. Drives off an accessory V belt mounted on the fan hub. Those were often found on Case backhoes. Not a cheap setup either. The bracket assembly alone is around $500 not including the compressor. There is even a dual AC compressor setup the mounts on top of the engine. Those were found in buses ISB 6 engine but the parts would fit a 4bt if you could find them. Those units were custom made by some bus company and I've only ever seen one. Would need pretty good hood clearance since both compressors sit above the valve covers. There are many custom made units that guys have dreamed up including me. I've been working on a setup to place a compressor beside the #1 valve cover and not need an accessory pulley. That requires a reverse fan hub which I've built but haven't quite completed the compressor mount. Below is a photo of the hub mount next to a stock 4bt fan hub. About the only custom part there was the pulley which member Eggman made for me. That thing is a work of art. There were air compressor s driven from the accessory drive on the front gear housing. Commonly found on trucks with air brakes. Below is a photo showing one on a 4bt. That is a darn big 2 cylinder compressor. There were single cylinder models too. This gives you a few ideas.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
OMG So much info for pulley options and different setups LOLOL Will definitely be coming back to all that once the time comes.

Been hunting down specific part numbers to be able to mate up the 4bt to the 1994 NV4500 tranny that I wanna run. So so far I've dug up this info and all looks like it should work in theory because there has been no one to say that it has worked. Chatting on a couple different forums and emailing adapter and tranny company's all over for the inputs.

So heres the run down:
  • Get rid of the SAE#3 housing and replace it with adapter plate 3923045
  • Get a 94-02 Dodge diesel bell housing
  • swap the front input shaft and bearing retainer on the NV4500 to the same 94-02 dodge year NV4500 versions.
  • Drill out to match the bell housings bottom mounting holes to the spare set of ears that are casted into the NV4500 case that have not been driller or tapped from the factory. That should allow the four bolting pattern to work.
  • Clutch assembly then is simply one for the same 94-02 dodge diesel versions.

Again this is fore the most part all in theory so I've been attempting to locate some bolt hole dimensions for the adapter plate (Have found the engine side but not the bell housing matting surface pattern), The bell housing (mainly the engine side pattern, as there transmission side is simply the pattern for that same year dodge NV4500 was). That should pretty much guarantee it to work.
 

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I'd suggest you do some research on changing that early GM to a Dodge input shaft. I ran across some articles on the forum about 9 years ago an it indicated a good bit more work. The later model GM NV4500 and the Dodge share the same gear ratios and case so the shaft is a simple swap. From what I gather the '93-94 GM NV4500 doesn't accept the Dodge input shaft without both input shaft retainer and transmission mods. The bolt holes on the early GM are in a different pattern than the late GM and Dodge. Another thing mentioned was gear meshing in 4th gear. Whether this is true I don't know but you might want to do so serious checking. May turn out to be a lot of work to get that lower gear ratio transmission to bolt up. The simplest thing would be bite the bullet and get the 4bt GM adapter and flywheel which would make the GM a direct bolt up using the GM bellhousing. No mods there. Not sure how the costs would compare but might be worth looking at. That kit not counting the starter is $995. By the time you buy an adapter plate, flywheel, bellhousing, and new input shaft you may have spent that much or more.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Yea did a bunch more research on the input shaft gear ratio and it simply wouldn't work. Thought of having a custom input shaft machined out but I'm sure that price is outrages as well, not to mention if it breaks I'd be completely screwed if i was out on trail.

Where can I find this GM adapter plate? And would it simply bolt up to the Cummins engine adapter plate or replace that all together???Then I could just run a chevy clutch and keep that like that. I'd really like to keep this lower geared tranny simply based off of rock crawling being all about crawling and lower gearing.

Though I did just post my tranny on craigs to see if there are any bites out there and email a few that have there 96 cummins nv4500 setup for sale as well. Might just be easier to sell mine and buy a complete setup pulled from the same truck instead of piecing it all together.
 

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Here's the listing fro Quick Draw. It's interesting that the adapter plate shown in this ad has 8 attaching holes. Almost every GM plate only has 7 holes which will mean it is tilted to one side slightly. If these are the non tilted version that would be a big plus. You'd need to contact the company to verify that.The adapter plates are not rare but the flywheels are hard to find. Occasionally one of these setups shows up for sale on the forum but only a small percentage of the original P30 vans had manual transmissions. This system would use a standard GM 11" clutch. It isn't mentioned but you'd want to verify this setup comes with the starter spacer. That will be required to use a stock starter. Cummins Chevy Manual Transmission adapter kits
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Cool thanks, I'll be giving them a call tomorrow to see if they could possibly make a package deal for the adapter plate bell housing and flywheel as one sale. Cause after a little looking looks like there are NONE of those adapter plates up for sale anywhere. I really honestly wanna run this lower gear tranny, I know id beat myself up for a long time if I was to sell it. Have already posted it up on Craigs and have someone very interested in it for the 1300 I listed for but I dont know.....I mean I only paid 100 bucks for this unit anyhow so why not just spend the little more and make it work.

Will also need to research if an 11" clutch would be big enough as well so South Bends Clutch will also be getting a phone call tomorrow as well to talk to them about that outcome.

Why would it need a starter spacer, you'd think they would have made this bell-housing to use a standard GM starter???? Also as far as the tilt goes fairly certain but only off of my logic would be that they would have had these bell housings made so the tranny is not tilted....or at-least common sense would say that.
 

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These adapter plates use a Nipon Denso starter, not a GM. The correct starter is part 128000-0545. You can find those in both genuine which may be in the $300-400 range or the clones which are much cheaper. The spacer is required so the starter pinion and flywheel gear align properly. I believe the current part number for the spacer is 3934080 should you need it. Have seen them priced from $85 to near double that. The only other starter that you might use is a Ford 7.3 diesel unit and that one needs a custom centering sleeve. Member Eggman makes those sleeves. I mentioned making sure the spacer came with the adapter because the only source of that piece is Cummins or one of their dealers. The tilt on the adapter plate was done to clear an obstruction on the firewall of the P30 GM van. When the engine was installed in those the motor mounts were on different levels and the transmission sat level. The non tilted GM adapter is scarce and if the one that Quick Dray has is that version it would be nice. Below is a photo of both styles. Is your NV4500 missing the bellhousing? Don't know that those guys would have that part. It's a GM part and was only used in '93-94. Some have mentioned taking the later model NV4500 bellhousing and adding the holes for the early transmission. You'l just want to be sure there's enough meat where you thread those holes. Might have to weld a bit of extra metal in there. On the clutch, so long as you keep the HP around 200 the standard 11" clutch should be OK, especially with your low gear ratio with multiple transfer cases.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
Good to know about the starter, only ever just took off and had ones rebuilt. Never really had to source SO many new parts and combine them all to work....this is my first actual build. LOL. So QuickDrw said he will ensure one way or another that the adapter does have the spacer as needed.

I knew about the tilt just didn't know how come some came with it and others didn't. Curious as to why there is a 7 and a 8 bolt hole bell housing to engine adapters. Was perhaps the 7 hole used in gas versions and the 8 used in the diesel versions, all questions I asked Quickdraw but he wasn't to sure. Also he said he only has the 7 hole one left and one that's clocked 10 degrees, which all in all 'shouldnt' be an issue. Do you happen to have the part#'s for both those adapter plates? The one that is shown on Quickdraw is the 8 hole pattern and from his pic I can zoom in and see part# 3910516. That's the one I cant find anywhere and might just have to bite the expensive price he has it for though it does come with a cleaned up aftermarket flywheel of some sort which will still work with the OE Chevy clutch set up.

As for me having the OE bell housing, that would be a no. However Quickdraw looks like they have there own aftermarket one, but after talking with him he said the OE one WILL work, so sourcing that part number and item now has started for sure. Really wish I simply unbolted the darn bell before selling the engine from the truck, that was a stupid mistake on my part but that was like 5 years ago HAHA.

And for the clutch part, ya I don't really plan on over power mod'ing this engine. So that's good to hear the 11incher would be fine. Still probably will go with a higher end one just cause there's gonna be a lot clutch burning happening HAHAHA

Also another good thing that Quickdraw said is that he has pallets of misc. 4bt and 6bt parts laying around, just said to give him a list and he'll start digging. So I'm gonna start compiling a list of specific part #'s and seeing if he can make me a big combo deal of some sorts.
 

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I've got the gm block adapter and flywheel still on my block. It's a 93 gmc ex aramark truck which originally had the gm diesel and nv4500., was part of Cummins repower program. The starter is there too. Don't remember seeing a starter spacer. Are you sure they all used a spacer? How about the ford setup (which I'm going to) do they use the same starter, kind da looks like it, but I haven't checked them yet. Did the ford use a spacer too? I'm going g to take a closer look. Anyway, maybe we can make a deal on the gm stuff, I'm not going to need it anymore.
 

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Comotionman, If you have the GM setup and the starter is still in place that spacer must be there. It isn't all that easy to see. It is very precision machined and looks like part of the housing. The Ford adapter plate uses the same starter and starter spacer as the GM. It's only if you adapter the Ford 7.3 starter that the spacer isn't needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
I've got the gm block adapter and flywheel still on my block. It's a 93 gmc ex aramark truck which originally had the gm diesel and nv4500., was part of Cummins repower program. The starter is there too. Don't remember seeing a starter spacer. Are you sure they all used a spacer? How about the ford setup (which I'm going to) do they use the same starter, kind da looks like it, but I haven't checked them yet. Did the ford use a spacer too? I'm going g to take a closer look. Anyway, maybe we can make a deal on the gm stuff, I'm not going to need it anymore.
PM INBOUND!!
 
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