[T_Swindler]

After a 7 to 8 year sabaticle (finished my Master's Degree) I am finally taking the plunge into the 4BT swap. I have learned quickly that the venture is not for the faint of heart. I am looking to get out under 7K. I purchased by 4BT in 2011 and 4L80E the same year. Then it sat in my garage as a dream that would not die. Ahead to 2019. My transmission is at Monster Transmission in Florida. My engine is a Harbor Engine and Grinding in Corpus Christi. Member Rube Bonet is manufacturing a new and stronger wave ring for the build. DieselTuff will be receiving both my injectors and injection pump. In short, I want a good drive train to start the build off right. Anyway, I wanted to introduce the build. Lastly, to thank all the advice along the way. :beer: I mean this especially to char1355, who has inspired my build with his knowledge answering the various questions on this forum. (Certainly, others are have been great contributors as well.)

T. Swindler

I added pics of my truck which normally sits with my neighbors truck. Mine is the blue/gray 1984 Chevy Silverado 1/2T 4WD. His is a Red/Silver 1984 Chevy C20 3/4T. Both run the 6.2 diesel engine.

 

[88yj]

Looking forward to seeing the progress. Soon I will be pulling the trigger on a 6bt into a square body 90 suburban 4x4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[T_Swindler]

Cracked Head

I stopped by the machine shop today to check on progress. The crank is good and ready to go (polished). The block has been checked for cracks and is ready for machining. The head is no good. It has three cracks and I will have to eat the cost of a new head.

 

[char1355]

Does that head possibly have the 9mm injector holes? Those heads were notorious for cracks. Cummins no longer sells the injectors with 9mm tips. It's a good probability that any new head you get will be 7mm anyway. Just have to be sure what size injection line nuts you have. Later model VE pumps had a smaller size. You could change out the tips and tip holders on you current bodies if necessary, but that might wind up more expensive. Just depends on what you have.

 

[T_Swindler]

Great Question, the same one my neighbor Sam asked of me last night. I pulled the injectors and started a thread asking how to identify them.

char1355, you provided excellent information there concerning the injectors:

"

DLLA 155 P 114 is Cummins part # 3908446 and Bosch part # 0 433 171 103. A CPL 767 should be a 4x.012 tip with 155 degree spay angle. You know the injector pop pressure is 245 bar which is common on the low pressure injection pumps like VE, CAV, A100, etc. Spray angle of 155 deg would also fit the VE and CAV pumps. Those tips also carry a CAV part #. Your complete injector part # should be 3802316 for CPL 767 Those have 12mm threaded tops and 7mm diameter tips. You can pick up rebuilt ones at the local Cummins shop for about $1000/set of 4. LOL. Oregon Fuel Injection sells rebuilt units for $76 each after the core refund. More in the realm of sanity. Hope this gives you some info as to what you have. Need to have them tested. If they aren't up to standard buying rebuilt is usually cheaper than having those rebuilt."

The only thing I am not sure about is the hold down nuts which secure the injector and thread into the head. Are they standard across the 3.9 and 5.9s? The reason I am asking is I purchased an injector puller and the injector hold down nuts were too big for the puller. I make a separate piece from PVC which worked. '

My hope is that Nascarmark will weigh in and tell me I have the rights injectors for the engine. (He is rebuilding my cores)
​

 

[T_Swindler]

Lesson Learned. I drained the injection pump as well as I could. Put it in bag and wrapped it in bubble wrap. Put it in a box and taped it like there was no tomorrow. Wrapped the box in brown paper, and taped again. The next day I was at the post office and the postal clerk refused to take the box stating she could faintly smell fuel. She smelled it ten times I believe as the odor was almost undetectible.

Got home after work, took the box and unwrapped it. The bag surround the injection pump was wet with fuel. I shook the pump every which way to get the remaining fuel out. Went through the process the second time. Before leaving to the post office the following day I asked my wife to smell the package. She has a highly developed olfactory membrane and can smell anything. She said it smelled like diesel fuel. I left the box at home and re-tackled the project last night.

I was still getting remnants of fuel out. I checked the autoparts store for plugs and they had nothing. I finally purchased some vacuum hose plugs (assortment) and low and behold, they make perfect plugs for that pump. I was able to protect the outlet ports and screw a rubber vacuum hose plug into the fuel inlet to the pump. I cleaned the pump with dawn and water then dried it with a hair blower.

The pump went out this morning via USPS. Looking back, I made three times the work as I should have. Funny, the store clerk said that the diesel will eat through the rubber plugs. I believe eventually this may be true. However, it will last for a two day shipping ride to its destination.

 

[char1355]

OK. Didn't realize this was tied to that previous thread. You can get an import head in the $600 range that comes complete with valves and springs. Haven't heard any major negatives about those. You can find rebuild OEM head in the $800-1000 range. Brand new head from Cummins is expensive. The hold down nuts on all the B series injectors are the same. 4bt and 6bt use the same style injector. If you think they are kind of cruddy and need replacing they are not expensive. Mark may have those nuts should you want new ones.

 

[T_Swindler]

I have asked a lot of questions trying to get the engine build right. The shop quoted $680.00 for a brand new complete head. The shop owner did not say it was imported but just stated that he could get a "Cummins head" - whatever that means.

Purchased an Injector Puller Tool: I am perplexed why anyone would make a tool to pull injectors if the barrel of that tool will not fit over the injector hold-down nuts. (Aw Nuts!) Thus, the barrel was too small for it to work. As far as the nuts, they need to be cleaned and they will be fine.

Nuts and Bolts Issue: On another note, while tearing down the engine, I noticed some bolts were not original, specifically the oil pan bolts. One bolt was stripped that holds the belt tensioner plate to the block. it has a hex-head and is countersunk to not interfere with the tensioner. I stripped two bolts on the gear case cover to the block. (they were the short ones). Is there a source to pick up original bolts, screws, nuts et cetera? Additionally, I need the fuel line (with fittings) from the fuel pump to the filter.

Does anyone have any sources?

Thanks,

T_Swindler

 

[Nascarmark]

Great Question, the same one my neighbor Sam asked of me last night. I pulled the injectors and started a thread asking how to identify them.

char1355, you provided excellent information there concerning the injectors:

"

DLLA 155 P 114 is Cummins part # 3908446 and Bosch part # 0 433 171 103. A CPL 767 should be a 4x.012 tip with 155 degree spay angle. You know the injector pop pressure is 245 bar which is common on the low pressure injection pumps like VE, CAV, A100, etc. Spray angle of 155 deg would also fit the VE and CAV pumps. Those tips also carry a CAV part #. Your complete injector part # should be 3802316 for CPL 767 Those have 12mm threaded tops and 7mm diameter tips. You can pick up rebuilt ones at the local Cummins shop for about $1000/set of 4. LOL. Oregon Fuel Injection sells rebuilt units for $76 each after the core refund. More in the realm of sanity. Hope this gives you some info as to what you have. Need to have them tested. If they aren't up to standard buying rebuilt is usually cheaper than having those rebuilt."

The only thing I am not sure about is the hold down nuts which secure the injector and thread into the head. Are they standard across the 3.9 and 5.9s? The reason I am asking is I purchased an injector puller and the injector hold down nuts were too big for the puller. I make a separate piece from PVC which worked. '

My hope is that Nascarmark will weigh in and tell me I have the rights injectors for the engine. (He is rebuilding my cores)
​

Yes, your injectors nozzles should be 7mm

 

[Nascarmark]

I stopped by the machine shop today to check on progress. The crank is good and ready to go (polished). The block has been checked for cracks and is ready for machining. The head is no good. It has three cracks and I will have to eat the cost of a new head.

Good call on getting a new head. Cummins spec's is anything longer than 1/8" needs to be replaced....yours is a doozy ��

 

[Nascarmark]

Lesson Learned. I drained the injection pump as well as I could. Put it in bag and wrapped it in bubble wrap. Put it in a box and taped it like there was no tomorrow. Wrapped the box in brown paper, and taped again. The next day I was at the post office and the postal clerk refused to take the box stating she could faintly smell fuel. She smelled it ten time i believe as the odor was almost undetectible.

Got home after work, took the box and unwrapped it. The bag surround the injection pump was wet with fuel. I shook the pump every which way to get the remaining fuel out. Went through the process the second time. Before leaving to the post office the following day I asked my wife to smell the package. She has a highly developed olfactory membrane and can smell anything. She said it smelled like diesel fuel. I left the box at home and re-tackled the project last night.

I was still getting remnants of fuel out. I checked the autoparts store for plugs and they had nothing. I finally purchased some vacuum hose plugs (assortment) and low and behold, they make perfect plugs for that pump. I was able to protect the outlet ports and screw a rubber vacuum hose plug into the fuel inlet to the pump. I cleaned the pump with dawn and water then dried it with a hair blower.

The pump went out this morning via USPS. Looking back, I made three times the work as I should have. Funny, the store clerk said that the diesel will eat through the rubber plugs. I believe eventually this may be true. However, it will last for a two day shipping ride to its destination.

lol. Yes the postal clerk is a bit anal. No worries on the time, as mentioned, it will be a bit as there is lots of other pumps on the build list before yours, so all is good.

 

[T_Swindler]

Not an issue, so long as I get on the list. I believe you said five weeks-ish.

 

[Nascarmark]

Not an issue, so long as I get on the list. I believe you said five weeks-ish.

Approx 3 weeks.

 

[turbogrin]

here you go!!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cylinder-Head-Fits-Cummins-174-4B-4BT-3904570-3920394-3920005-LOADED/132912879237?hash=item1ef2399685:g:sgAAAOSwU8hY6C8j:rk:3:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-3-9-3-9L-4B-4BT-4BTA-Aftermarket-Cylinder-Head-complete/160420680657?hash=item2559d153d1:g:YVIAAOxy88lRYY17:rk:1:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-4BT-7mm-Injector-Tip-Cylinder-Head/302082156477?hash=item46557fe7bd:g:GIEAAOSwqGlatnSN:rk:2:pf:0

 

[char1355]

Just catching up on a few of your questions. The shops price on the head sounds decent. Most likely is an import. Have to remember that Cummins quit building the standard B series in this country a good many years ago. On your question about bolts, the only source for OEM bolts would be mainly Cummins or Case Tractors. On the oil pan bolts, you sometimes find 2 different sizes. The two bolts that extend into the rear crank seal are sometimes shorter. The 2 sizes and part #'s are as follows. M8x1.25x20 flange head is part # 3900630. Only 2 or those are specified but you could probably use that for all 28 of them. The longer bolt that shows up is M8x1.25x21 flange head which is part # 3920400. That is a non standard length you you'll only find that with Cummins or Case. Might want to measure to be sure what you have. If you find 2 shorter ones they go into the rear crank seal. On the odd ball recess cap screw in the tensioner plate, that is Cummins part # 3925186. Doesn't show the size specs. On the gear case the ones inside the gear frame are M8x1.25x16 flange head with part # 3925883. That same one also is on some of the exterior ones. If you wanted to check prices at Case, change the 3 at the beginning of the part # to the letter J and go to Coleman Equipment Co. site. On the lift pump fuel line for the diaphragm type pump I believe the part # is 3905649. If you don't have them it will require 1 banjo bolt # 3903035 and 2 washers part # 3918191. If you think about changing to the piston type lift pump there are different part numbers. Do you have an engine serial # for this engine? If so, you can go to Cummins Quick Serve on line and set up a free basic account. That will show you every part # in your engine as originally made. Might need to verify some of my numbers as Cummins has the habit of changing all the time. OEM bolts from Cummins or Case can tend to be pricey. If you only need a few it's not so bad. That fuel line is usually in the $20-30 range.

 

[T_Swindler]

char1355, do you have a web address for the Cummins Quick Serve site? I went to cummins.com and entered my engine to find out many parts are unavailable. I want to ensure I am looking at what you are referring to. Also, I didn't know you could change up to a piston pump, what are the advantages? Thanks for the great info!!!

Update: With some unexpected help, I found the site... I also found the advantages to a piston style pump. Not cheap, but seem to be worth it.

T_Swindler

 

[Nascarmark]

That fuel line is usually in the $20-30 range.

That's where many go wrong....that's the price for the 6bt hard line. The 4bt one is almost $50

 

[char1355]

Yes, Mark, that fuel line for the piston pump is much more expensive. They didn't make many of those compared to the diaphragm type. The P pump models, A pumps, and a few rare VE industrials were the only ones with the piston lift pump in the 4bt.

T_Swindler, if this is a vehicle you plan to keep for a while I'd go with the piston lift pump. Those diaphragm models have a bad reputation for dying unexpectedly or giving very low fuel pressure. Can be a pay now or pay later situation. One tow bill would probably cost more that the piston setup unless you have AAA.

 

[T_Swindler]

My thoughts exactly. I pulled the trigger on the piston style pump earlier today. It will be in the mail soon. Now, I have to return my diaphragm pump. As far as keeping the vehicle, definitely. I told my son that it will be his one day upon my passing. (Hopefully later than sooner.) The truck will only gain in value. The 4BT gives it the cool factor. :beer:

 

[char1355]

I know the feeling. I have a neighbor that has a 1957 Ford Thunderbird. He got it brand new as a high school graduation present. Still looks like the day it rolled off the showroom floor. He drives it on sunny days occasionally. Not sure what his kids will do once he passes on.