[Wilson'sMCG]

Is there anyone out there tuning the baby common rail engines? I have my hands on a 4.5 ISB I'm looking to swap in and would love to be able to set it around a 300 to 350 power level.

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[char1355]

Don't think there has been much on those. The ISB 4.5 has only been available in the USA for a short time. It was mainly a European engine. We had the ISB 3.9. The problem you'll run into is the turbo. The single can't feed that power level you're talking about so twins would be required. What size vehicle are you looking at. The ISB 4.5 comes in a 210 HP version with 627 lb ft of torque. That's more torque than a Dodge ISB 5.9 had with 325 HP. Will take a strong transmission to handle that.

 

[jr2185]

Is there anyone out there tuning the baby common rail engines? I have my hands on a 4.5 ISB I'm looking to swap in and would love to be able to set it around a 300 to 350 power level.

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I've been doing the tuning the 3.9 for several guys and could look into doing these also. Could you get me pictures of the engine and ecu labels?

 

[char1355]

If you tune the engine to that power level what do you do about the turbo? No small turbo which what these engines have can feed 300-350 HP. It will take twins. Can't use a bigger turbo because it will be dead duck in the lower RPM range.

 

[!Peter!]

These have been around for a while in Australia and being used in engine swaps. A very popular swap for Nissan Patrols. There's s few facebook groups dedicated to these engines.

Here's a dyno sheet for one making 330hp & 900nm on a single. The best I've seen claimed is 400hp 1100mn on a single.

I've heard that there's a factory compound version that makes 300hp but don`t have any details yet.

 

[BeerMoney]

if you want some serious customizability you could look at a DID1 Common Rail Diesel ECU from "controls.is". the guys name is Baldur and he makes some bad ass stuff for both the mercedes community where he started and now for some more universal products. for sure reach out to him as he is always super helpful with basically any tech knowledge and could probably teach a masters course in diesel tuning. Also possibly worth looking into a vgt as his computers can control those as well which would make it basically 2/3 of a 6.7. stock 6.7+tune=500hp multiply by .66 would make for a 330hp 4.5L at similar power density to some of the daily drivable and still reliable work trucks out there.

 

[jr2185]

Those DID1 ecus are pretty awesome. I'm working at setting one up for a guy with a 3L DOHC Iveco engine. I also hope to do a bunch of dyno testing of the ISB 3.9 tunes I've been making and asked to borrow his DID1 to also do some testing with that. We'll see if I actually get around to making it happen lol.

 

[char1355]

I'm curious how you can get 300+ HP out that small turbo on the engine. You'd be needing up near 40 PSI boost and that little turbo isn't going to hold together trying to do that. That would be tough for a big turbo and then you'd have no bottom end. Those units have a variable geometry turbo and don't know what specs it has. I believe it is the HE200vg.

 

[!Peter!]

@char1355, were you referring to my post?

 

[char1355]

Peter, it was sort of a general question but it's strange that the engine showing in your graphs does what a 4bt 3.9 can't come close to with a single turbo. Just seem strange that that small turbo is able to do what in theory shouldn't be possible. Then I spot in the specs they aren't using the stock turbo. It's a TD06-24V. That turbo has a 55.5x77.9 compressor which is huge compared to the HE200VG. You will also note that all the torque is way over 2000 RPM. They show 914 Nm @ 2494 RPM. A stock ISB4.5 210 HP has 850 Nm @ around 1700 RPM or less. Their engine has about 380 Nm at that RPM. They've shifted the power curve on the engine to be more like a Mercedes. More RPM's but the power is up top, not down low like a Cummins is designed. Would be a poor power plant for moving heavy things like trucks or buses which is what the ISB4.5 is used. They show an AFR graph but that doesn't tell you how much fuel its going to consume. I suspect it will be a poor fuel economy number. All right to have bragging rights on HP but reality sets in when you stop for fuel.

 

[Wilson'sMCG]

Supposedly there is a guy in North Carolina that has the tuning somewhat figured out. I may just end up P Pumping it with a compound setup.

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[!Peter!]

Peter, it was sort of a general question but it's strange that the engine showing in your graphs does what a 4bt 3.9 can't come close to with a single turbo. Just seem strange that that small turbo is able to do what in theory shouldn't be possible. Then I spot in the specs they aren't using the stock turbo. It's a TD06-24V. That turbo has a 55.5x77.9 compressor which is huge compared to the HE200VG. You will also note that all the torque is way over 2000 RPM. They show 914 Nm @ 2494 RPM. A stock ISB4.5 210 HP has 850 Nm @ around 1700 RPM or less. Their engine has about 380 Nm at that RPM. They've shifted the power curve on the engine to be more like a Mercedes. More RPM's but the power is up top, not down low like a Cummins is designed. Would be a poor power plant for moving heavy things like trucks or buses which is what the ISB4.5 is used. They show an AFR graph but that doesn't tell you how much fuel its going to consume. I suspect it will be a poor fuel economy number. All right to have bragging rights on HP but reality sets in when you stop for fuel.

There's a few variations of the 4.5. First of all there's two Cummins factories that make them, the ISBe which is made in the UK I believe, if not there then somewhere else in Europe, and the ISDe which is made in Dongfeng in China. While essentially the same there are some difference. Also the ISDe's typically don't show up in quick serve.

The standard ISDe originally came with the HE221WG with later ones using the 7cm2 HE200WG. You could also ask for the HX30 instead. I also understand that there is a factory version using a 10cm2 HE250WG. Below is the factory test sheet for an ISDe with HX30.

Regarding the dyno sheet I posted I completely agree, although you have to bear in mind the vehicles these are typically going into in Australia have a GVM of only 3500 kg (about 7700lbs) and GCM of only 7000kg (about 15400lbs), and the engine they replace made at most 360nm. Also looking that the AFR and HP curves I'm guessing the fueling system is maxed out at 300hp.

The best bit about these engines is that a lot of the internals are shared with the 6.7 Dodge Cummins so there's already head studs, valve springs and push rods available to upgrade the engine. I haven't verified but I would expect that pistons and rods are interchangeable as well.

 

[char1355]

Wilson, you could P pump that engine but it will be an expensive ordeal. Correction, very expensive. Would require a custom crankshaft. All the 16 valve engines have rear gear train. P pump needs a front gear train. Member Steed changed one from rear to front so it can be done. You have to make a custom oil pan but that's the minor issue. Then you get into the injection system. Will need custom fuel lines and modified 24 valve injectors. Have to change the cam too because it is driven off the rear gear train. There is a custom front gear housing for putting a P pump on a common rail. Hair over $1000 for that part. If you want a genuine Bosch P7100 that may take some searching. The Chinese clones are cheap but aren't quite the same as the Bosch. Lot of work to change a 16 valve computer engine to mechanical but it can be done.

 

[!Peter!]

Supposedly there is a guy in North Carolina that has the tuning somewhat figured out. I may just end up P Pumping it with a compound setup.

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I'm aware of one that's been done here in Australia. What char1355 has described matches with what they did.

I'm not sure which ECM is being used on the ISBe's that are in the US, but the ECM used in the ones in Australia are able to be remapped with several non-cummins tuners so compounds can be done on the common rail. At worst you may need to change the ECM to one that's tunable using non-cummins tuners but that's going to be a lot cheaper and lot quicker than a P Pump.

Having said that, if you want to go the P pump route for the fun and challenge of doing it then please keep us posted!!

Incidentally, I've got a 4.5 I've swapped and have plans to do compounds in the next year or so.

 

[Wilson'sMCG]

I've been doing the tuning the 3.9 for several guys and could look into doing these also. Could you get me pictures of the engine and ecu labels?

Somehow I skipped over this message. I'm still learning the forum thing. Was looking into sending you a direct message but can't figure that out. I will be picking up the engine on Friday. Hopefully I'll have some numbers for you after 8 get home with it.

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