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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Since basically no one around here knows me, might as well do an introduction first. Name is Matt Whitbread, I live in northern metro detroit, and am a certified diesel nut/torque addict. Anyone in the VW TDI world might recognize my name as I run a TDI performance/maintenance shop in my side time. My day job is the head chassis fabricator at a race car shop where I've even turned the boss to the dark side; two diesel race cars are in the shop stable now. Like most everyone here, I can't leave anything well enough alone. I have an Arctic Cat 700 diesel quad that I turbo'ed, Microsquirt Efi'ed yamaha banshee, 4 TDI's with my favorite being a compound turbo AWD wagon that's making ~290whp/460lb/ft currently at 50psi boost. Once upon a time it was a V6 autotragic FWD lame wagon.

That brings me here. My very first vehicle I bought myself in high school (after mowing god know how many lawns) was a rather clean 87 K10 silverado shortbed. As the 305 was tired when I bought it, I built a ~380hp 383 motor out of left over parts from an uncles drag racing days. When gas was $1.80/gallon it was all good and scared small children. But ever since gas crested $3/gal, 6mpg of premium just hurts too bad. Sadly, it's only had 50 miles put on it in 6 years. Over the years I've been accumulating parts for a full rebuild of an undetermined exact direction. I have a kingpin 60 and a 14 bolt rear with 4.10 gears, 8 lug 15" rims to keep my current 35's, 2wd sm465 I got for free from a friend who owed me a favor, and all the body parts needed to restore it to original glory. Plan has always been diesel, stumbled onto a 4BD1T for silly cheap and was going to drop it in. But, earlier this week, the exact project direction fell into my lap.

The engine machine shop I work with happened to get a tired, but running, 4-53NA motor in as part of a trade deal. Knowing my nature of liking weird stuff, they called me and said come pick it up in return for the large amount of business I bring to them (haven't had a chance to pick it up yet as the winter apocalypse doesn't seem to be ending). Plan is to run 4-53 to sm465 with a ranger over drive unit on the front to a np205. Since truck is a lifted shortbed, I don't have driveline length for a brownie. As I got motor and trans for free, I figure I can spend the savings on a ranger unit to get some OD. This brings me to where I need some help from the two stroke sensei's here.

From reading as much as I can on the subject of extreme power mods and talking with an oldddd school detroit nut with a 6v53TT in an 85 k30 frame with a 56 body, I have enough knowledge to at least ask intelligent questions. On the other side of the coin, if anyone has any VW questions, ask away.

Here's the maniacal plan so far, targeting 400hp;
-Compound turbos
-external blower bypass valve using an Audi compound turbo v6 tdi compressor bypass valve to retain NA blower as consensus seems to be that is has better low end response than a bypass unit. It works purely on differential pressure with a ~1-2psi cracking pressure and is only $170 new from VW.
-Big enough injectors to fuel appropriately, N90's, N120's, suggestions? Been told anything N90 and up will roll at idle and won't be able to be adjusted out. Don't really care, but is that correct?
-Clean up/port/polish entire intake tract and exhaust ports
-1.5" turbo rods
-full engine rebuild to turbo spec with correct pistons, may machine down to 17:1 CR, ceramic coated domes, and coated skirts.
-Balance everything to .5 gram
-Cryo treat rotating assembly
-Big front mount intercooler
-bigger oil cooler

Truck will mostly be used for hauling light loads, playing around, advertising for my shop, and local sled pulls. I'm well aware this extreme of an engine setup will shorten engine life, but if this truck sees 10kmi/year i'll be shocked. I'm fine with doing an in frame every 100K for ~4x factory power. Fast, cheap, reliable; I know what two I'm picking.

So here's where I need some guidance; my old detroit buddy recommended short port liners with cross heads and HV/HF cams with valve springs to match, But he's not as much of a performance nut as I am. I like boost and hearing motor's sing :). From my reading of Sharfer's 3-53 setup and others here, the cross heads aren't that good for high rpms as they're heavy. Any suggestions on port height and cam selection? Injector size? Do detroit governors have any type of boost compensation for low rpm fueling or is it strictly right foot controlled?

I was thinking of running the turbo trunks and chucking them in the lathe and gently massaging the bowls to bring CR down a touch. I know it'll hurt low end tq a hare, but I'd rather have a motor that stays together under boost. It'll get a block heater and ether kit if needed for cold starting. Are head studs needed at all? I see the factory bolts are torqued down to 180lb/ft and can't find any reports of head gasket leaks from power.

Lastly, does anyone have a line a 4-53 automotive bell housing that'll let the sm465 bolt up? Maybe a flywheel/clutch part number? I've read they do exist but can't find any leads on one for sale. Is Leid's a good possible source? I'd love to do an all oem type drivetrain assembly with no funky adapters.


Once I hit 10 posts I'll post up some pics of the various parts and cool stuff you guys will appreciate. Thanks in advance for the help and sorry for the long first post!
 

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I have nothing to add to this post except we've probably ran into each other @ some point out on the streets. What shop do you fabricate @ if I might ask?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Probably so if you're ever anywhere from Fraser to Richmond! I'm usually in a red 90 corrado, my black 97 passat wagon, or my 81 silver rabbit truck with a 3" SS stack. I work at RCR/Superlite at 13 1/2 and Groesbeck.
 

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4 TDI's with my favorite being a compound turbo AWD wagon that's making ~290whp/460lb/ft currently at 50psi boost. Once upon a time it was a V6 autotragic FWD lame wagon.
Welcome, you'll fit right in and do you have any more info on the above that you can point me to?
 

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Welcome,

Add to your list the larger/thicker oil pump.

Leid's may have the GM two piece adapter/housing set, worth a call to ask. I was there a few weeks ago and they did have the thin gear cover part of that set sitting in the shop, not sure if it was available or if they also have the clutch housing. One thing though I think you'll need or prefer the light duty GM housing because of the short (small truck) input shaft on the Ranger, unless they offer a longer one that would let it work with the larger heavy duty GM 2 piece clutch housing.
This is the larger one


On the governor and reduced fueling at low boost you may want to install a "fuel modulator", not really part of the governor but part of the system. Check your service manual but it is no more than an air cylinder and cam under the valve cover operated by boost that reduces the travel of the injector racks until sufficient boost is made.
On the left side here between cylinders 1 and 2, hard to see but it replaces the two rocker arm stands in that location, and there is a lever on the injector control tube.


I also like my VW TDI's, previous car was a 98 Jetta and current one is an 05 wagon, both with Rocket Chip tuning and without EGR, nothing wild.

Grigg
 

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Welcome to the forum, here is a little tip with Detroit nomenclature. TT does not stand for Twin Turbochargers, it stands for Tailored Torque. A Tailored Torque engine has bellville washers in the governor spring pack to retain a flatter horsepower and torque curve. TA stands for Turbo Aftercooled. I have never once seen an aftercooled inline 53. They must not have made very many of them. I only know that they exist because I have a picture of a 4-53T block on my computer which is machined for an aftercooler. If you are using an intercooler, the designation will be TI. A Factory 4-53T uses a Garrett/AiResearch T04 turbocharger. The Silver 4-53T uses a T04B turbocharger with slightly smaller a/r ratio housings. My injector book does not show any 4-53T making above 230hp, so 400hp is going to be quite a stretch. You will only get there with lots of rpm and lots of fuel. Forget about doing such with crosshead pistons at a maximum of 3300rpm. You probably do not want "N" series injectors for making power. To get to that power range you might want to be looking at 7245's, 7125's or 7105's. As far as I am aware no factory ARP head studs are made for our 2 cycle diesel engines. I have only heard that the head start to lift off of the block at about 110PSI of boost pressure, which seems like a pipe dream to me!

Chris
 

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Good catch on the TT Chris. Early on when I had a 6V53 with twins I also thought that 6V53TT would mean "twin turbo" like Cummins does use it.. then Dan explained that it's not the same for Detroits.
So far as I've ever seen in the manuals and sales sheets any unmber of Turbos is just "T". Even a 16V149 for example with 4 turbos is only called a 16V149T or TI as the case may be.
 

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There was never a 53 series with the TT designation that I know of, only 6 and 8V92Ts that were derated for large fleets trying to control the driver . That's where the Bellville washers were used .
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Welcome, you'll fit right in and do you have any more info on the above that you can point me to?
As soon as I hit 10 posts I'll be happy to share a link. Basics are an ALH motor bored to 81mm, h beam rods, my main girdle, ti wristpins, ported head/big valves/big cam/springs, gtb2056vk HP turbo, S247 LP turbo, 38mm external gate, 11mm injection pump, 5x.013 nozzles. AWD drive setup is out of an audi TT with aftermarket standalone controller with diesel gears in the trans. It scoots pretty good for an unassuming vehicle.

Welcome,
Add to your list the larger/thicker oil pump.

Leid's may have the GM two piece adapter/housing set, worth a call to ask. I was there a few weeks ago and they did have the thin gear cover part of that set sitting in the shop, not sure if it was available or if they also have the clutch housing. One thing though I think you'll need or prefer the light duty GM housing because of the short (small truck) input shaft on the Ranger, unless they offer a longer one that would let it work with the larger heavy duty GM 2 piece clutch housing.
This is the larger one

On the governor and reduced fueling at low boost you may want to install a "fuel modulator", not really part of the governor but part of the system. Check your service manual but it is no more than an air cylinder and cam under the valve cover operated by boost that reduces the travel of the injector racks until sufficient boost is made.
On the left side here between cylinders 1 and 2, hard to see but it replaces the two rocker arm stands in that location, and there is a lever on the injector control tube.

I also like my VW TDI's, previous car was a 98 Jetta and current one is an 05 wagon, both with Rocket Chip tuning and without EGR, nothing wild.

Grigg
Thanks for the tips! I've read about the turbo oil pumps/coolers being larger so it was figured into the conversion over to a T motor.

So the light duty bellhousing is the one to get since I'll be using a "baby" trans? Perfect, sounds just like an aneroid on a VE/P/M pump. I'd rather not have a total smoke monster trying to take off from a light.

If you ever need any TDI parts or help, just give me a holler. At your next oil change, pop your valve cover off and check the cam on your 05. There should be a .030" chamfer all the way around the edges of the lobe. Somewhere along the lines in the manufacturing chain, a solid lifter profile ended up on all the 04-06 cams. There's a .013" tall bump right at the transition from base circle to lift ramp. It beats the crap out of the top of the hydraulic lifter and eventually wears through the .040" hardness layer on the cam and you can imagine where it goes from there. I worked with Colt Cams 4 years ago to develop a correct geometry cam that won't eat itself. So when it happens, you're not SOL.


Welcome to the forum, here is a little tip with Detroit nomenclature. TT does not stand for Twin Turbochargers, it stands for Tailored Torque. A Tailored Torque engine has bellville washers in the governor spring pack to retain a flatter horsepower and torque curve. TA stands for Turbo Aftercooled. I have never once seen an aftercooled inline 53. They must not have made very many of them. I only know that they exist because I have a picture of a 4-53T block on my computer which is machined for an aftercooler. If you are using an intercooler, the designation will be TI. A Factory 4-53T uses a Garrett/AiResearch T04 turbocharger. The Silver 4-53T uses a T04B turbocharger with slightly smaller a/r ratio housings. My injector book does not show any 4-53T making above 230hp, so 400hp is going to be quite a stretch. You will only get there with lots of rpm and lots of fuel. Forget about doing such with crosshead pistons at a maximum of 3300rpm. You probably do not want "N" series injectors for making power. To get to that power range you might want to be looking at 7245's, 7125's or 7105's. As far as I am aware no factory ARP head studs are made for our 2 cycle diesel engines. I have only heard that the head start to lift off of the block at about 110PSI of boost pressure, which seems like a pipe dream to me!

Chris
Sheeesh, tough crowd around here! I just assumed everyone would pick up on the joke of Twin Turbo Aftercooled, who in the world would build a tailored torque 4-53T haha !? Intercooler/aftercooler, potato/potah-to. Didn't realize I'd ruffle so many feathers with that one! If a Mod wants to change it to a more politically correct 4-53CTI go for it (compound turbo intercooled) bounce

That ancient T04B is going to get thrown out the window. Since we're flowing double the exhaust of a same displacement 4 stroke diesel, something in the 55mm compressor inducer would do for the HP and around a 72-75mm for LP turbo. A 44mm external gate will let partially bypass HP turbine at full song.

Just because they aren't in a catalog under our application, doesn't mean they're not the same ones used in something else :). Quick google shows 5/8-11 thread, the next time I call A1 Tech I'll see what they have in their catalog. If factory bolts are holding 110psi, then I have some wiggle room till I get there.

Which is the largest of those injectors? I presume the 7105's?

Any suggestions on liner port heights or cams?

Thanks again for the info guys!
 

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I know Chris can sometimes come across as a tough guy, but he didn't mean any ill will of it I can assure you, he just wants to make sure that appropriate lingo is used/understood, and to be quite honest it can't hurt just so were all on the same page. It was more for your info than him jumping your case, he is extremely knowledgable and a helpful resource and a true benefit to the forum.

That being said he seems to prefer the 71 series injector in a 53 but others are having great luck with N series as well as 92 and 149 injectors for big fuel needs, I personally have 9A90's for my 4-53T Wayne has N90's in his 4-53n with a turbo hanging off of it and 18.7:1 turbo trunk kits in it, Schafer Diesel has some hybrid 140+ 149 series injector in his 3-53 with compound twins on it, and I think Buck has 120's with a modern turbo in his 4-53T.

Lots of options out there, as for your power goal I don't think it's completely unreasonable since Intimidated's truck made good power on N90/80's and now also has 9A90's in it with N80 tips and is very happy with the power, he had it on a dyno once but I don't remember the exact numbers, but they were respectable for an all stock 4-53T save for the injectors.

Luke
 

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They dont call me hard headed Chris for nothing..............I recently built my 4-53T for my medium duty truck the way that I believe one should be built; tall port liners, cross head pistons, V7L low lift cam, natural blower, green turbo, heavy green wire valve springs and a moderate 7A77 injector. Had I been wanting to build a 4-53T for high rpm usage and lots of power I would have still kept the V7L cam and natural blower but would have went with the 1-1/2" trunk type pistons, and some real late 92 series injectors like the ones I mentioned above. Some of us have dabbled with high sustained engine operation and across the board you are going to need to do something to the valve train. The valves are the heart of these engines, and in my opinion are the most critical part of a 2 cycle engine. There are a number of different valves and valve springs available, a thin red wire spring for use with high lift cams, a heavier green wire spring for low lift cams and an extra stiff brown spring which I believe is specialty order. (See the sticky's) Generally the thicker the wire gauge the faster the valve train will move without valve float. What rpm valve float occurs at is not well documented, folks like Lawrence and Jason are likely to chime in with knowledge from their experiences. For the grand majority valve float is not a problem with our 3000-3300rpm maximum factory governed engines. Some folks who push the boundaries, like Lawrence for example, are shimming valve springs and seriously contemplating the motion of cutting the head to fit larger 71 series valves. He is running the largest injector available for 92 series engines, the 7105, which is one step above the N140 in terms of fuel flow. One evening we were talking about that mystery 7105 injector, and since I have one of the latest injector book prints (2005), I found out that the 7105 was designed for use in 12V92T marine engine pushing out 100hp per cylinder! How his little 53 is burning that much fuel and holding together I do not know! I have only been around 2 cycle diesels for a couple years now, and they are quite a different beast! It is best to get acquainted with one before denouncing factory head bolts, and the stock turbocharger, which is known to sufficiently burn every drop of fuel from a S45 to an N140. There is a lot of great information on this site and in the yahoo groups, but neither is more adept than the factory service manual. You are likely to find that 4 stroke performance modifications are not relevant, necessary, or beneficial on these engines. It is better to do your research now then waste a lot of money later! On a side note, have you ever driven a rig powered by a Detroit Diesel before? If 170hp from the factory is sufficient to move a 60,000GCW truck, a stock or hot engine in a pickup is going to be a blast!

Chris
 

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Nice. Good to see someone else from the vw world get the disease. Im on tdiclub too so I immediately recognized the name from there.

I like where youre headed with this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I know Chris can sometimes come across as a tough guy, but he didn't mean any ill will of it I can assure you, he just wants to make sure that appropriate lingo is used/understood, and to be quite honest it can't hurt just so were all on the same page. It was more for your info than him jumping your case, he is extremely knowledgable and a helpful resource and a true benefit to the forum.

That being said he seems to prefer the 71 series injector in a 53 but others are having great luck with N series as well as 92 and 149 injectors for big fuel needs, I personally have 9A90's for my 4-53T Wayne has N90's in his 4-53n with a turbo hanging off of it and 18.7:1 turbo trunk kits in it, Schafer Diesel has some hybrid 140+ 149 series injector in his 3-53 with compound twins on it, and I think Buck has 120's with a modern turbo in his 4-53T.

Lots of options out there, as for your power goal I don't think it's completely unreasonable since Intimidated's truck made good power on N90/80's and now also has 9A90's in it with N80 tips and is very happy with the power, he had it on a dyno once but I don't remember the exact numbers, but they were respectable for an all stock 4-53T save for the injectors.

Luke
No hurt feelings here at all, I know it was in good spirits as I'm the newb here and none of us know what exactly each other knows. Ya know? This 10 post rule before posting links or pics is a pain, I have some things to share that I'm sure put us all on a closer page :beer:

Good to hear others are running huge injectors and they're still driveable. Once p pumped 5.9's get over ~550-600hp they are a turd to drive around anytime you're not at 100% throttle in the boost. I don't think my power goal is out of this world, 1.88hp/cube isn't an outlandish figure for a turbo diesel with modern technology parts being added into the equation.

They dont call me hard headed Chris for nothing..............I recently built my 4-53T for my medium duty truck the way that I believe one should be built; tall port liners, cross head pistons, V7L low lift cam, natural blower, green turbo, heavy green wire valve springs and a moderate 7A77 injector. Had I been wanting to build a 4-53T for high rpm usage and lots of power I would have still kept the V7L cam and natural blower but would have went with the 1-1/2" trunk type pistons, and some real late 92 series injectors like the ones I mentioned above. Some of us have dabbled with high sustained engine operation and across the board you are going to need to do something to the valve train. The valves are the heart of these engines, and in my opinion are the most critical part of a 2 cycle engine. There are a number of different valves and valve springs available, a thin red wire spring for use with high lift cams, a heavier green wire spring for low lift cams and an extra stiff brown spring which I believe is specialty order. (See the sticky's) Generally the thicker the wire gauge the faster the valve train will move without valve float. What rpm valve float occurs at is not well documented, folks like Lawrence and Jason are likely to chime in with knowledge from their experiences. For the grand majority valve float is not a problem with our 3000-3300rpm maximum factory governed engines. Some folks who push the boundaries, like Lawrence for example, are shimming valve springs and seriously contemplating the motion of cutting the head to fit larger 71 series valves. He is running the largest injector available for 92 series engines, the 7105, which is one step above the N140 in terms of fuel flow. One evening we were talking about that mystery 7105 injector, and since I have one of the latest injector book prints (2005), I found out that the 7105 was designed for use in 12V92T marine engine pushing out 100hp per cylinder! How his little 53 is burning that much fuel and holding together I do not know! I have only been around 2 cycle diesels for a couple years now, and they are quite a different beast! It is best to get acquainted with one before denouncing factory head bolts, and the stock turbocharger, which is known to sufficiently burn every drop of fuel from a S45 to an N140. There is a lot of great information on this site and in the yahoo groups, but neither is more adept than the factory service manual. You are likely to find that 4 stroke performance modifications are not relevant, necessary, or beneficial on these engines. It is better to do your research now then waste a lot of money later! On a side note, have you ever driven a rig powered by a Detroit Diesel before? If 170hp from the factory is sufficient to move a 60,000GCW truck, a stock or hot engine in a pickup is going to be a blast!

Chris
No worries man, I know you're being helpful which I greatly appreciate. I'm on a lot of different forums and there's some real arse holes out there that refuse to help anyone for absolutely no reason.

I've been reading as much I can find on the valves and floating, I know Sharfer was having some issues between 3500-3800rpms if I recall correctly. I plan on picking up 1 of each of the stiffer springs and popping them on a spring tester to get some real numbers. I'll post up the results of course. Running 2x speed on the valve train certainly makes things interesting. But man does it look cool idling with the valve cover off!

I wasn't denouncing the factory head bolts, a 5/8" bolt is nothing to scoff at. I'm just extremely accustomed to using upgraded hardware throughout on a motor build as cheap insurance. Ever since I had a factory rod bolt fail and cause a stage left exit, I'll happily pay a few extra $$ on better hardware in the beginning to never have that happen again. I was 2000 miles from home on dec 23rd when she let go idling at a traffic light.

Dang, 1hp/cube is very high for a factory motor. The 140 in N140 means 140cc of fuel per 1000 injections right? Just making sure it's in the same lingo as the rest of the diesel world. If those 7105's are one step above, that's a much lower fuel delivery rate than I was expecting for the "big boys" of the lineup. My little 12mm VE pump with the 5x.013 nozzles is running at 290cc/1000 strokes on my compound turbo tdi and I have just a light haze at full song.

The old Jimmy's are definitely a unique breed! That's the entire reason one's going in my old chevy :). There's a handful of Fummins and Chummins running around my neck of the woods, but no screamin' demons.

The old t04b's aren't the worst turbo out there, but new turbos are so much more efficient and responsive. The new borg warner EFR's are amazing. Pricey, but you get what you pay for. The more efficient your turbo is, the lower your IAT's will be, the less boost you need to make X power. I know the 4 stroke mods don't directly translate over, but air and fuel are still the keys to efficient power. My wagon with 3500lbs in tow going up a 6% grade at 3Krpm and 70mph sits at 45psi boost and 875*F egt's. That's 7000lbs being pulled by a tiny 1.9L diesel and it's completely happy due to the insane amount of airflow mods I did.

Research and saving money is why I'm here! As I said before, I have enough knowledge to be dangerous, but by absolutely no means an expert. I learned a long time ago it's cheaper to ask for help than to be stubborn and drive in circles.

The only DD truck I've ridden in is my friends 87k30/56 bodied 6v53 with twin parallel turbos and large intercooler. On the chassis dyno it was 390whp and 1190tq with N90's. It certainly scoots! But you can feel how heavy that motor is. I'm after the same power level with 500+ less pounds hanging off the front. The truck right now has ~380hp with the 383 gasser, detuning isn't an option :D
 

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I am not really sure what the conversion is for Detroit injectors to cc. They are measured in mm3 per 1000 strokes. The number stamped on the side of the injector is not always a good indication of what the injector will flow. For example, a 7105 injector will flow 150-157mm3 of fuel, and what appears to be a larger injector, a 7245, will flow 113-119mm3 of fuel. There are larger injectors than the 7105, but not commercially produced. Some of the old time hot rodders have been running 230mm3 injectors which are either modified 92 series injectors, or 149 series injector parts modified to work in a smaller body injector. There are hundreds if not thousands of different injectors made over the 70+year life span of these engines. You can pretty much look up and find a factory injector which has the right tip and flow for you. Built in fuel advance on larger injectors is a hot topic on the forum, but DD never specified anything about it, or at least not in any of the injector/field service manuals that I have,

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Sounds like a sweet project! Can't wait to see it.
I can't wait to get started on it! I need to wrap up a few other projects before I can tear the recipient truck apart, but it's the perfect time for gathering the weird, hard to find parts now.

Now that I've finally hit 10 post and can do links and pics, here's an awesome OEM compressor bypass valve that some of the more creative folk here could use to do a blower bypass since the factory ports are so tiny in bypass blowers. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3982485&postcount=14



Here's some diesel porn to keep things entertaining until the weather breaks and I can grab the 4-53 and start tearing into it;

Endurance race car I built at my day job, did everything except the body. 2.0L VW TDI, currently 220hp at 5800rpm, 340lb/ft at 2400. Building compounds for it before next season with bigger nozzles to match.




Bare chassis


My turbo diesel Arctic cat 700. Factory installed 686cc OHC, MUI, IDI Lombardini motor. Turbo is a Mitsu TD02


My sleeper wagon


Put to work. Detroit to Roanoke and back in 36 hours with car in tow each way. 22mpg at 70mph.
 
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