Cummins 4BT & Diesel Conversions Forums banner

1 - 20 of 227 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
The game is finally ON!

I've been here for the last 4+ years researching, learning, and waiting to find my idea setup.

2yrs ago I bought (2) 4bd1t motors from two different craigslist people. One is an auto, one is stick, one is 89, one is 90? I think. I don't know the condition of either, but one the seller guaranteed it runs.

I've been looking for the last 2 years for a suitable Wagoneer to put one of them in. I finally found it, and picked it up yesterday.

I think I got a deal on the Wagoneer, but it's so much the perfect rig. I'm super happy about it. About the only thing I don't like is that someone cut 8" speaker holes in the otherwise perfect door cards! :happyfinger:
The PO yanked the 360 and was in the process of putting in a 350tbi > 700r4 > Dana 300 > Dana 44 axles (from a 77 Wagoneer).
The motor is dead, but the tranny and TC are supposedly in great condition.

I'm still trying to figure out the best Tranny/TC to go behind the Isuzu. Has to be an auto (happy wife, happy life).
Top of the list is a 4L80e. But I don't have one. I've been told that the 700r4 won't hold up to the diesel.



CyivnM_CvQW3CHsd-UvDTliRtREj9_Z5yRx9yXYZf1Wm4QCZ8YQJGhN-UiSpCyNdGdjRj4PCfhKCC0ou41Z0fYXDRLG__gcq.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Got it back to my shop and setup an area to do the surgery.



Here are some things I'm trying to sort out:
1. Should I just go with the 700r4? Do I need to buy a different torque converter?
2. If the 700r4 doesn't work is it the same dimensions as the 4L80E? Can I use the new diesel spec TC that I bought for the 700r4?
3. Will a Dana 300 transfer case hold up to diesel pounding? Will it fit both the 700r4 and the 4L80e?

Basically, I would love to use what I already have. But if I can use the same adapter plate, same Torque Converter, same transfer case with either motor, I might as well give the 700r4 a try.
If you guys know that the 700 will fail quickly or suck, and I'd have to buy all sorts of other parts all over again, Then I should wait to find the right TQ-C/Trans/Trans Case.

-Kevin
 

·
Registered
91 yj
Joined
·
157 Posts
I have a built stage 2 advance adapter 350auto behind my. 4bd1t. I've been using and abusing it for two years now and don't have any slipping or complaints. It does need a cable operated modulator to effectively control tranny line pressure. The shift points are a little annoying cause has motor transmissions shift at higher rpm so behind the diesel it takes a time for it to shift. That's where the 4l80 shines because of standalone shift controllers. But to answer question my350 has held up wonderful and in full time locked on 42 inch tires with dana44-60 and I drove mostly around town with the occasional weekend trail stint.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
841 Posts
I had a 700r4 behind a Mercedes OM617 in a Cherokee and I had a love hate relationship with it. The good, simple to control no computer, the bad, super low 1st gear with a HUGE gap to 2nd. Even with the high revving Mercedes it was very annoying, drove me crazy. You're motor will be even more problematic because it doesn't rev as much. I say go with anything else. Very cool project!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
692 Posts
I cannot answer your question about the transmission, but I can answer the transfer case question. The Dana 300 in stock form will absolutely hold up behind your motor. I again cannot tell you for sure, but I'd assume you'd need to run an adapter between your trans and T-case. Check out advanced adapters first. Spendy, but well made. Oh and cool Waggy!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I cannot answer your question about the transmission, but I can answer the transfer case question. The Dana 300 in stock form will absolutely hold up behind your motor. I again cannot tell you for sure, but I'd assume you'd need to run an adapter between your trans and T-case. Check out advanced adapters first. Spendy, but well made. Oh and cool Waggy!
So day one, and I can't keep my hands off the Jeep. I pulled the engine/tranny/transfer just for fun so I can start thinking about the placement of the new heart.
Day 2 was a 15 hour work day, but I stayed up late and read about the D300. Seems like a solid choice. I like that I can "twin stick" it. That should be a cool part in the cab if I can find/fabricate handles/linkages.
I think it already has an Advanced Adapters kit between the 700r4 and the D300. I also think, not sure yet, that the adapter will work between a 4L80e and the D300.

Because the 4bd1t has such a different torque curve, I think something with some remote/electronic control would be advantageous. I usually like the tried and true, all mechanical solution, but in this case, I don't want to pull the tranny 9 times making it work right. I've come to love EFI and I see it as a simple, durable, efficient system. Ok, if N. Korea drops an EMP on us it might not shift right, but I'm not basing my decisions on zombie killing best practices either.

The 4l80e also has a nice .75 OD gearing. I plugged the numbers into a calculator and 65 mph will be about 2130 rpm. That's with the tiny tires it has. I think it's in the ballpark of comfortable with this motor.

I think I'm going to dig deep on finding a 4L80e with low miles on CL and hope it works. I found a cheap one ($150) listed wrong already, but it was 2wd.

Thanks for your thoughts and accolades,
Kevin



IMG_20170726_105914.jpg
IMG_20170726_175603.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Ok, picked up a decent 4L80e yesterday. He listed it for $1100 and I offered $500 w/o the torque converter and 241c transfer and he took it. Less than 50k from a show car that got squashed by a tree. Found out pretty fast that the Novak adapter I have from the seller will not work with the new 4L80E.

I already listed this one on ebay, and ordered one from advanced adapters. I'm driving down to McMinnville Monday as well to pickup a 4bd1t to GM adapter from Dustin at dieseladapters.com. Its an hour drive, but I'd rather get a face to face and hand cash, get product. He's been super helpful over the years with my 10,000 questions.






IMG_20170728_162944.jpg
IMG_20170728_162957.jpg
IMG_20170728_171915.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
BTW, here's my two power plants that I have to choose from. Not really sure how to decide which one is in better shape.
Maybe I can do a compression test? Or a leak-down? Never done it on a diesel. Maybe open it up?

Any suggestions?

eeny, meeny, miny, mo?

I was looking them over and noticed one has a wastgated IHI, and the other is a garrett. Didn't have time or good light to find a number. I'm going to bring my pressure washer to work on Monday and clean them up some.

One more question: They have vacuum pumps on the alternator??? Is that for the brakes? I thought I had to figure out some sort of power steering hydroboost system. Way easier if I have a vacuum source.



IMG_20170728_112329.jpg
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,709 Posts
BTW, here's my two power plants that I have to choose from. Not really sure how to decide which one is in better shape.
Maybe I can do a compression test? Or a leak-down? Never done it on a diesel. Maybe open it up?

Any suggestions?

eeny, meeny, miny, mo?

I was looking them over and noticed one has a wastgated IHI, and the other is a garrett. Didn't have time or good light to find a number. I'm going to bring my pressure washer to work on Monday and clean them up some.

One more question: They have vacuum pumps on the alternator??? Is that for the brakes? I thought I had to figure out some sort of power steering hydroboost system. Way easier if I have a vacuum source.

Your pictures won't show up, they ask me for a password.

The IHI turbo was used from 85-88 and the Garrett used from then until about 1994. The 88+ motors have a different cam and seem to run a bit quieter. THe IHI manifold will only fit IHI turbos, it's close to T25 pattern but not quite. The Garrett manifold will be T3 pattern.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Your pictures won't show up, they ask me for a password.
Dang. Posting pics is so important to keep interest. Plus I love sharing. I went back as far as I could and uploaded the pics instead of linking the URL to Google Photos. Not sure if there's a limit to how many you can upload here. If its unlimited, I'll just do it that way.

Dougal,
I plan on different turbo, charged air cooler, and turning up the power. At first I just want to get something in there and running so we can realize this long time dream. I've been reading all about the 221 turbo here. Who knows, maybe the stock power will be fine for what I want to do. Yea right.

Let me know if you can see the pics now. Was everyone else having problems seeing the embedded url shared pics I posted?

Cheers,
Kevin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,155 Posts
Isuzu made several worthwhile improvements to the 4BD1T in late 1988 (the model that have the Garrett turbo). Stronger pistons and improved piston cooling (both to overcome an issue with piston cracking), larger displacement oil pump, camshaft with valve timing that suits turbocharging (earlier engines had a cam that suited NA). Stock power and torque are higher and fuel consumption is reduced (around 15% for all).

Later 4BD1T's are quieter and smother, such that Isuzu eliminated some acoustic measures that were employed with the earlier engines.

BTW if you look at the numbers cast into the engine block, below the governor on the fuel injection pump, the first two will be the year of manufacture.

No trouble with pics now.

Edit: The vacuum pump at the back of the alternator will be suitable for a brake booster.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,709 Posts
Pictures showing for me now.

My own engine is an 85 which originally had the IHI turbo. I found big economy improvements with a better turbo. So my theory is that was much of the BSFC and efficiency gain. I'd like to try the later cam shaft at some stage too. I'm not aware of anyone who has compared the cams back to back.

What's the gearbox model on the early engine? Look for a sticker near the drain plug.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Motor #1
1986 automatic
DOM: May 1985
Notes from seller:
1986 Isuzu 4BD1T direct injected diesel engine with just under 200k on the clock. The
engine ran great when pulled, the previous owner wanted the manual trans behind it and didn't need
the rest of the truck (he had a NPR tow truck with an auto that died). I removed as much as I could
when I pulled the engine so all accessories have wiring with pigtails and no hoses were cut.
IMG_20160729_073731.jpg

Motor #2
1989 manual
DOM: Sept 1988
Notes from Seller:
It came from light truck parts in portland as a runner, we got the whole truck minus the starter, my buddy was going to use it under a street rod cabover truck but sold all of it to me & I got the complete motor& trans, some shifting cables, I removed them from the chassy myself, I got the rear end & front axle & tires I dont know mileage, the trans I assume stock 5 speed, if you call me I can send pics buy phone rick xxxxxxxx leave me a message & I will send pics
IMG_20160729_073724.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Pictures showing for me now.

My own engine is an 85 which originally had the IHI turbo. I found big economy improvements with a better turbo. So my theory is that was much of the BSFC and efficiency gain. I'd like to try the later cam shaft at some stage too. I'm not aware of anyone who has compared the cams back to back.

What's the gearbox model on the early engine? Look for a sticker near the drain plug.
Dougal,
What's BSFC?
I'll get you the info on the gearbox. It's actually on the 89 engine. I looked it up at one time, it's a 5sp manual stock. I think the biggest problem was the low final gearing. Not sure though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
223 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
The 88+ motors have a different cam and seem to run a bit quieter.
I have to disagree with Dougal with regard to the earlier T engines being quieter. IMHO the later 4BD1T's are quieter and smother, such that Isuzu eliminated some acoustic measures that were employed with the earlier engines.
Thank so much for your info!!! Both of you.

BTW John, I think you misread Dougal's post. You guys are on the same page.

-Kevin
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,709 Posts
Dougal,
What's BSFC?
I'll get you the info on the gearbox. It's actually on the 89 engine. I looked it up at one time, it's a 5sp manual stock. I think the biggest problem was the low final gearing. Not sure though.
BSFC is a measure of how much fuel the engine requires to produce each unit of shaft power. It's essentially efficiency measurement and lower numbers are better.

The US for some bizarre reason got 5sp gearboxes without overdrive (MSA-5D usually). The rest of the world got overdrive versions (5P, 5G, 5R etc). Still worth checking.

I could be interested in your spare engine. Whichever you don't use and depending on when that is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
The vacuum pump on the alternator works great for your stock vacuum brake booster and any vacuum-powered accessories on your truck, like heater control valves, heat/ac blend doors, etc. The brake pedal feel with the vacuum pump is pretty much identical to how it was with a gas engine.

Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,155 Posts
Thank so much for your info!!! Both of you.

BTW John, I think you misread Dougal's post. You guys are on the same page.

-Kevin
Thanks Kevin, my bad, I did misread Dougals post.
 
1 - 20 of 227 Posts
Top