4BD1T Turbo Sizing and Performance Prediction.

220110 Views 452 Replies 59 Participants Last post by Dougal, 2 mo ago

Dougal

Discussion Starter · Feb 20, 2013 (Edited)

3

Over the years I've built up some calculation spreadsheets to predict engine power and torque from air consumption, boost and efficiency (BSFC). I've had other spreadsheets to predict engine airflow from boost, volumetric efficiency and intercooling.

I had a burst of productivity last night and combined the two. I then set all the variables as close as I could to my 4BD1T using information from 4BD1T factory performance charts, observed boost and fuel pump settings.
These variables have all been set as close as I could estimate to my 4BD1T, it will also apply within reason to 4BD2T and 4BT engines.

Here are the basic variables:
RPM range from 800-3,600rpm in 100rpm steps.
VE starting at 0.9 at idle to 2000rpm, dropping to 0.8 at 3000rpm and 0.74 at 3,600rpm.
BSFC starting at 240g/kwh at idle, minimum of 215g/kwh at 2100-2200rpm and climbing to 257g/kwh at 3,600rpm.
Observed boost hitting 10psi at 1200rpm, 22psi at 2000rpm, 24psi at 2200rpm and dropping from there.
No intercooler, 20C intake temps, sea-level and 60% compressor efficiency.
A/F ratio used was 17:1.

Here are the results:

Rectangle Slope Plot Font Line

Rectangle Slope Plot Font Line

Rectangle Slope Plot Font Parallel

These aren't perfect, they don't include parasitics such as turbine drive pressure which are dropping more power at higher rpm than shown on the graphs. But they are a good indication. I think it's within 10% of reality at all points.

edit October 2022, re-uploaded pictures

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401 - 420 of 453 Posts

bush65

· #401 · Nov 2, 2017

The design of the HE221 compressor impeller is toward more radial blades, which improves air flow, and PR at a cost of lower efficiency (more heat).

Dougal

Discussion Starter · #402 · Nov 3, 2017

Vern said:
By boost capacity you mean can run higher boost?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Yep. As Bush65 said. It basically throws air harder but less efficiently.
Max PR on the 19T compressor map is 3:1 which is 30psi at sealevel.
Max PR on the HE221 compressor map just touches 4:1 which is 45psi at sea-level.

The tradeoff is about 5% (absolute) better efficiency on the 19T wheel.

I've got an aftermarket 19T wheel with extended tips which should split the difference between them. I haven't yet run it.

Reactions: 1

RoverDon

· #403 · Nov 22, 2017

3

Sorry if this is in the wrong section but I was searching HE221 / TD04HL / HX30 and came across this thread.

I have a OM617 with an M pump (7.5 elements) and recently finished up installing a HX30 turbo. With the HX30 boost comes on after 2k RPM's. I would like something that comes on sooner.

I am looking at either a HE221 or TD04HL.

My main question is could I use an HE221 and change the turbine to a Volvo 6cm? That way the Volvo mount is easily adaptable to the T3 of the Mercedes exhaust header. Mamba also sells the 3 bolt/hole exhaust plate that I could weld a V-Band to.

I'm hoping the CHRA and front of the Holset HE221 would be similar enough to the HX30 that I wouldn't have to reconfigure too much. The TD04HL's that I can find have a water cooled middle that I would prefer not to mess with.

Any insight would be appreciated and I can post in the OM617 if that is preferred. Thanks!

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Dougal

Discussion Starter · #404 · Nov 22, 2017

RoverDon said:
Sorry if this is in the wrong section but I was searching HE221 / TD04HL / HX30 and came across this thread.

I have a OM617 with an M pump (7.5 elements) and recently finished up installing a HX30 turbo. With the HX30 boost comes on after 2k RPM's. I would like something that comes on sooner.

I am looking at either a HE221 or TD04HL.

My main question is could I use an HE221 and change the turbine to a Volvo 6cm? That way the Volvo mount is easily adaptable to the T3 of the Mercedes exhaust header. Mamba also sells the 3 bolt/hole exhaust plate that I could weld a V-Band to.

I'm hoping the CHRA and front of the Holset HE221 would be similar enough to the HX30 that I wouldn't have to reconfigure too much. The TD04HL's that I can find have a water cooled middle that I would prefer not to mess with.

Any insight would be appreciated and I can post in the OM617 if that is preferred. Thanks!

The HE221 is a TD04HL based turbo and others have swapped housings. I would go for a 5cm which I don't think you'll find with T3.

Water cooled centre housings can be left not connected with no issues. Just don't seal them up.

RoverDon

· #405 · Nov 23, 2017

Dougal said:
The HE221 is a TD04HL based turbo and others have swapped housings. I would go for a 5cm which I don't think you'll find with T3.

Water cooled centre housings can be left not connected with no issues. Just don't seal them up.

Many thanks Dougal

I'm not totally opposed to the T3. I have an extra OM617 exhaust manifold and can see if I can weld a T25 plate or come up with something bolt on that doesn't push out the turbo too far to the fenderwell.

Eurotrash has a 5.5cm. I haven't been able to find anything online for sale for a 5cm.

Good to know about keeping the water cooled centre housings open and they are fine in case I go the TD04HL route.

bobakers

· #406 · Nov 25, 2017

Low boost after replacement turbo

Hi

Am having problems with boost on a isuzu 4BD1T in my 6x6 perentie.

Have fitted a TD04 HL 19T with 6cm housing and 9 blade turbine

Exhauxt is 2.5” to muffler & 2” from muffler back (yet to be upgraded)

At the moment cannot get more than 10 PSI of boost under load/full throttle

Testing to date:

Fitted boost gauge (in compressor outlet next to WG sense port)
Fitted exhaust pyro in manifold adapter prior to turbine.

Wound out max fuel screw on side of pump, getting 750oC at full load at 10PSI and black smoke when first accelerating
found that donaldson filter service indicator was pulling in and removed airfilter inlet hose that runs from under RH guard which stopped the service indicator pulling down.

Tried running with no ducting,filter on compressor housing – still only 10 PSI boost

Tried running with only 2.5” dump pipe fitted – still only 10 PSI boost

Tested boost gauge with mitey vac and tested up to 15 PSI boost ok

Inspected WG and is seating ok, fitted shop air and WG starts to open at 15 PSI

Removed exhaust pyro and fitted pressure gauge – 15 PSI exhaust pressure at 10 PSI boost pressure under load

Truck drives ok (havent been able to put a load on the back but unloaded going up the test hill seams to pull ok) but thought I should be getting better then 10 PSI out of the turbo???

Thanks
Bob

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gerg

· #407 · Nov 25, 2017

My friend is running a td04hl-11 blade extended tip 19t with a 7cm housing on his 4bg1t (kowalski) and he trialed the 9 blade turbine vs the 11 blade over the course of a year and the 11 blade was better but recently he swapped over to the 12 blade stock turbine and it's the best of all of them. I had the exact same results on my Toyota 3b. The hL 12 blade stock turbine seems to very well matched.

bush65

· #408 · Nov 25, 2017 (Edited)

Bob, 6x6 Perentie is a heavy beast, you need more boost pressure to lower that egt and clean up the exhaust smoke.

High emp (exhaust manifold pressure) will be blowing the waste gate open at 10 psi boost. You need more preload on the waste gate, or a stronger spring in the actuator, or try a boost elbow/Dawes valve. 3" exhaust will reduce the high emp.

Boost needs to be high 20's to 30 psi if you plan to turn the pump up.

Edit, 1.5 drive ratio (15 psi emp / 10 psi imp), when boost is so low, is not a good sign. Expect it to get worse when boost is raised. It also means you will loose significant power and economy through pumping losses.

The small exhaust and intake restrictions are contributing, but you may also have a poor performing turbo, or significant boost leakage.

bobakers

· #409 · Nov 26, 2017

Hi John

Thanks for that.

I thought that running with just the dump pipe would of ruled out excessive exhaust back pressure but are you saying the 2.5" is still too small?

Ive checked for leaks on the charge air side and couldn't find anything. Checked valve clearance and all correct.

truck accelerates ok but the boost just hits the wall at 10 psi

bush65

· #410 · Nov 26, 2017

Bob, the stock 4bd1t uses 2.5" exh, for about 10 psi boost, but with a much larger turbine housing that reduces emp. The entire exh system, including turbine and turbine housing, contributes to emp.

To drive the compressor faster, to increase the boost pressure requires more pressure drop across the turbine. Your turbine housing has a nozzle area of 6 square cm to increase the emp, thus increase the turbine power.

Then emp = required pressure drop across the turbine plus exh back pressure.

When the turbo is sized and operating correctly, the boost pressure increases with emp and the drive pressure ratio, emp/imp, is less than 1.0, until the turbo and engine speed are near their limits.

You need to find and fix a few issues and have everything operating well.

bush65

· #411 · Nov 26, 2017

Bob, I didn't have time to provide more detail in my last post.

I'm far from expert on MHI turbos. From my understanding I would not chose a TD04HL19T for your application (6x6 Perentie). I think the Holsett Super HX30 is far better as a single turbo. Best choice is compound/staged turbos (night and day difference).

You want to get the best from a TD04HL19T in your application, assuming the turbo you have is in good condition, you need to start with the correct waste gate actuator for the required boost pressure (high 20's afaik a 19T compressor wheel is not suitable for 30+ psi). 3" exh system also.

Then you will most likely find that you need a turbine housing with a larger nozzle area, possibly 7 square cm. You may find that you also need a better aftermarket compressor wheel.

In the end you will most likely find that a TD04HL19T lacks the good top end performance required for your 6x6 Perentie, which could really do with an extra litre or two engine displacement.

Dougal

Discussion Starter · #412 · Nov 26, 2017

bobakers said:
Hi

Am having problems with boost on a isuzu 4BD1T in my 6x6 perentie.

Have fitted a TD04 HL 19T with 6cm housing and 9 blade turbine

Exhauxt is 2.5” to muffler & 2” from muffler back (yet to be upgraded)

At the moment cannot get more than 10 PSI of boost under load/full throttle

Testing to date:

Fitted boost gauge (in compressor outlet next to WG sense port)
Fitted exhaust pyro in manifold adapter prior to turbine.

Wound out max fuel screw on side of pump, getting 750oC at full load at 10PSI and black smoke when first accelerating
found that donaldson filter service indicator was pulling in and removed airfilter inlet hose that runs from under RH guard which stopped the service indicator pulling down.

Tried running with no ducting,filter on compressor housing – still only 10 PSI boost

Tried running with only 2.5” dump pipe fitted – still only 10 PSI boost

Tested boost gauge with mitey vac and tested up to 15 PSI boost ok

Inspected WG and is seating ok, fitted shop air and WG starts to open at 15 PSI

Removed exhaust pyro and fitted pressure gauge – 15 PSI exhaust pressure at 10 PSI boost pressure under load

Truck drives ok (havent been able to put a load on the back but unloaded going up the test hill seams to pull ok) but thought I should be getting better then 10 PSI out of the turbo???

Thanks
Bob

For turbo spec, the 9 blade turbine is not ideal. The 11 blade (harder to find) is best and the 12 blade is second best. The 9 blade is for high rpm ricers with lots of exhaust flow running low boost. We're the opposite.

Expect the boost level to be 3-5psi below the bench test pressure (due to exhaust pressure also pushing on the flap from inside) and that's about what you've got.

Crank the wastegate up until it needs 20psi to open it and see where you're at. That 2" final section of exhaust isn't ideal.

Bush65, the TD04HL-19T-6cm (without 9 blade turbine) is a very good match. I've bought one myself but not yet fitted. I however have an 11 blade turbine and extended tip compressor wheel to fit also.

bush65

· #413 · Nov 26, 2017

Thanks Dougal, you know much more about these turbo's than I.

I still maintain they are not the best match for a heavy 6x6 Perentie (5600 kg gvm, 7100 kg gcm) that has a wider and higher body than Defender, with poor aerodynamics, high driveline losses and low overall gearing (no overdrive 4.77:1 diffs), so engine working hard around max rpm all day on the highway. That's a bit different to many of us here that rarely exceed 2500 rpm.

Dougal

Discussion Starter · #414 · Nov 26, 2017

2

bush65 said:
Thanks Dougal, you know much more about these turbo's than I.

I still maintain they are not the best match for a heavy 6x6 Perentie (5600 kg gvm, 7100 kg gcm) that has a wider and higher body than Defender, with poor aerodynamics, high driveline losses and low overall gearing (no overdrive 4.77:1 diffs), so engine working hard around max rpm all day on the highway. That's a bit different to many of us here that rarely exceed 2500 rpm.

Here's what I think they can do with a monster intercooler at 18:1 A/F. This is 30psi sealevel which puts it just off the top of the map at PR3.

This would be a hotter tune than I'd recommend for a Perentie. But it shows what's possible. I'd dial it back to more like 21:1 AFR at full load which will be around 155cc/1000 shots of fuel. Which will drop power and torque by about 15% but reduce EGT also.

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bobakers

· #415 · Nov 27, 2017

Hi John & Dougal

Thanks for your input, greatly appreciated

The perentie is being set up as an expedition vehicle with a custom slide on so driveability/reliability will be preference over outright power/torque.
At the moment I'm just going to work on the air intake as there is too much restriction with the air ducting from under the guard to the air filter and the air filter (with safety filter) appears to be not capable of flowing enough air even at 10psi. Are there any suitable alternatives?

Once the body is on Ill look at the following:

> fabricate a new cross over pipe as the existing one is 45mm at the turbo and 60 mm at the inlet manifold. Currently using a 50mm to 45mm silicon reducer off the compressor outlet (50mm). Would also be a good time to look at a Plazmaman water to air intercooler.

> Upgrade turbine to 11 blade ($119 from Mamba)

> full 3" exhaust with high flow muffler

> Tune boost/fuel as required.

Ive just fitted 255 85 16 tyres and even this has seen a significant improvement when cruising at 90kph.

I have an Allison 2500 (gen 3, 5 speed 0.71 final drive) sitting in the garage which I'm looking at close coupling to a LT95A transfer case. Given that I have 3 drive shafts and a PTO driven winch I cant find a suitable aftermarket transfer case.

To run the Allison and pull 5th gear I'm going to need 140kw/450+nm which I understand the 3.9 Isuzu can reliably provide.

Thanks again for your help

Bob

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bush65

· #416 · Nov 28, 2017

Bob,

When people say they want "reliability" in the same sentence where they speak of power/torque increases, they usually have in mind the issues from performance increase with NA petrol/gas engines. In those cases failures result from increased inertial loads because the engine speed is increased significantly (increasing rpm is the main way to increase performance from a NA engine).

With a turbocharged diesel, we increase performance, without increasing rpm, by increasing the density of the inducted air. The inertial loads are not increased and the main concern is high temperatures reducing the piston strength. High temperatures in the combustion chamber is addressed by providing extra induction air that will remove a considerable amount of heat. Some mistakenly think concerns about high egt has to do with turbo failure, but in a turbocharged diesel it is our best indication of temperatures in the combustion chamber.

Increasing air/fuel ratio and reducing the temperature of the charge air are most important in achieving reliability when increasing turbocharged diesel performance.

I would be concerned by your high egt, but fixing the boost pressure should fix that.

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Jeff Melber

· #417 · Dec 3, 2017

There is definitely more HX30 turbo chargers around. Problem is specific information such as wheel diameter is rarely provided. I've asked and no luck. Regarding an HX30 with a 6cm2 exhaust housing AND 44mm or 46mm intake. Determining the housing is pretty doable however, getting information on wheel sizes is going to be next to impossible. Does anyone have a part number(s) that would indicate the intake wheel is 44 or 46mm for a Holset HX30?

Thanks for any help,
Jeff

BadCo.

· #418 · Dec 6, 2017

Jeff Melber said:
There is definitely more HX30 turbo chargers around. Problem is specific information such as wheel diameter is rarely provided. I've asked and no luck. Regarding an HX30 with a 6cm2 exhaust housing AND 44mm or 46mm intake. Determining the housing is pretty doable however, getting information on wheel sizes is going to be next to impossible. Does anyone have a part number(s) that would indicate the intake wheel is 44 or 46mm for a Holset HX30?

Thanks for any help,
Jeff

I bought my used HX30w from XHC Turbos on ebay. Look in the last picture of the page where they detail the intake wheel size.

BadCo.

· #419 · Dec 6, 2017

Ah turns out I can't post links until I have made 10 posts. PM sent!

Jeff Melber

· #420 · Dec 6, 2017

Thanks BadCo,

I checked out their web site and some of the turbos, like the one you purchased, do have a lot of information included. Interesting there is a RED used HX30 that shows up on three different web sites, or at least being sold by three different places.

Have you installed the HX30 yet? If so, how do you like the performance?

Take care,
Jeff

401 - 420 of 453 Posts