Cummins 4BT & Diesel Conversions Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Greetings all,

I think I found a mechanic/garage that can do a swap for me.
The only issue I'm really worried about is clearance.
The very nice gentlemen/mechanic said it should fit though.

May I ask what people have found in terms of the shortest 4bt possible from modifications?

Google says the 4bt is 37.7 inches tall and from this forum, someone posted 35.16 inches (Seeking 4BT dimension drawings)

*Edit -> Also, this diagram says with a low mount turbo the 4bt/6bt should only be 34.51 inches tall.
Is this true? Can you shave up 4.5 inches in other ways (including a custom or modified oil pan)?


Do people think there is a way to get the engine to 30 inches tall?
There are some great links on this forum on dry sump or marine oil pans.
I was told the height of my cross member to the hood is 30 inches and but I really want to stay with a cummins 4bt instead of a 4bd1t (cool factor and parts finding).

Thanks so much for reading this and thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.
Happy New Year!

Cheers,
Kevin H.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,457 Posts
... SO I'm going to ask what are you putting your 4BT into.
I installed mine about 12 years ago. I was scared of every problem I could Imagine ..
After I crossed each bridge none were an issue I couldn't handle .
Mine is in a 1972 Ford Bronco .. I cut my oil pan & notched it. & A young man helping me . He cut out a front braces of the frame. I was not there .. I almost died when I got back & saw what he'd done. I was sure my Bronco would walk all over the road... But this allowed me / us to drop it about 3+ inches. So I got that brace he'd cut out . I ground it smooth & Added about 4 or maybe 6 pieces of angle iron. I welded on angle iron to the brace & Then drilled it & bolted it in place with a grade 8 ..1/2 inch fine thread bolt . Then I added one more piece of angle iron Drilling each one & Then removing the brace & welding it into place. I believe I have about 8 grade 8 bolts holding it in place. My repairs worked because I've never felt that my Bronco walked any due to that brace being removed . .
... SO then I got to the top of the motor. I made a plate on the air intake & Built a 90* angle inlet turning it to the front & I used the air tubes that had went over the motor . I rerouted THEM around front toward the radiator . Mine is barely taller than my Valve covers..
.... I was worried about the viberation... Not an issue . I was worried about the exhaust drop pipe from the manifold . Not an issue. I was afraid my exhaust pipe would touch the body not an issue. Just look at truck exhaust .. you can find tight 90*angles . . I'd like to put on a bigger turbo on mine just because it'd fit. But I don't need speed I only like torque in the manor I use my Bronco .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,457 Posts
OH I Forgot to say.. A problem I didn't know was headed my way. It's noisy .. I have 2 more 6bts & A 2000 24v ..
The 4BT is the loudest one of all them . . I'VE TOOK IT BACK TO THE MUFFLER shop 2 times .. Now I have 3 inch exhaust & a pull off a new Ford pickup muffler. It's better than it was originally but it's still to loud.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,393 Posts
On my 1986 Ford F150, I managed to tuck the sump of the oil pan behind the front cross member. Tight fit, the engine and transmission combo get stabbed into the hole at a steep angle. This give you a few extra inches to play with - and maybe an inch or so by relocating the turbo. I had enough vertical clearance for the turbo - BUT - the exhaust outlet was too close to the firewall. Routing the exhaust thru the glove compartment was not a viable option ;)...

126984

Modified seats for the motor mounts are in place - 4bt tilts a little to the side, my calculations were a little off.

126985

The shallow part of the oil pan is just about a inch above the crossmember. Lots of changes since this picture. Turbo relocated, Dodge power steering/vacuum pump, horizontal oil filter, 5 speed OD transmission, etc. Most of the details are in my build thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,812 Posts
There are a couple different engines classed as a 4bt. There is a 3.3 L and 3.9/4.5 L. The 3.3 L is considerably smaller but not used by most in swaps. The 3.9/4.5 L engine is the more common. The measurements can vary depending on equipment. The base engine should be around 35.16" tall. That is from the bottom or the oil pan to the top of the valve covers. If you have a turbo air crossover tube up top, aftercooler, or a high mounted turbo then it will be about 2-4" taller. An engine with a high mount turbo measures around 39" tall. There are 2 different oil pans so that could also affect the height. Getting one to 30" tall isn't going to happen unless you design a dry sump oil system. Could be done but very costly. The oil pan is sometimes an issue but you don't want to be reducing the capacity to an extreme amount . Stock oil system is 10 qts. That oil lubes the engine parts plus is used to cool the pistons. Most try to avoid modifying the oil pan. These engines are just tall by design and not a lot that can be done about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
990 Posts
I've cut 2" out of the oil pan sump. You can find details in my build thread which is linked in my signature.

I lost 1qt with the chop but gained back ½qt by installing the longer 6bt oil filter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Hey papitt
Thanks for your detailed reply.
I'm hoping to get the cummins 4bt into a 1951 Mercury 4 Door Sedan!
I'll see if this helps the mechanic!
May I ask what the height from the top of your cross member to the hood is?
Also, so you lowered the engine by 3 inches by working with braces? How much more clearance did you get by modding the oil pan?
And thanks for warning about the loudness of the engine. I'll blast some loud music :p


Hey Russ McLean
Thank you, I'll pass this on also to the mechanic and see if this helps!
I'm really hoping everything works out!


Thank you char1355, MaxPF also recommended a dry sump system.
Do you happen to know any kits I could research or around how much such a system would cost?

Thanks Goat for the reply.
What do you think the max you can remove from the oil pan?
I'll take look at your build :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,457 Posts
.. After looking at the motor with the oil pan off. Basically the crank spins inside the casting of the motor . I'm meaning it does not protrude below the motor frame. Or I'll say it doesn't swing below the cast block of the motor , doesn't swing outside of the block. SO YOU'VE got a little room but I'd still not want it flat across.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,457 Posts
I'm going to say mine is about 29 ... I tried to take a picture but at night & by myself it hard to get a good pictures.
If you'll text me your cell number I'll send these 3 or 4 pictures.
my cell is 254-592-5455. I got a picture of what I think was the bottom plane. & I got a couple of pictures of the air intake hose passing around on the top of the motor .
... If you can post a picture repost them up here when you get them. I thought I had a great plan when I did the air hose around the front of the motor.
...I think it'll work in your 51 Mercery. . It'll be heavy but thats a tough old car.. SO I saynot a problem .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I'm going to say mine is about 29 ... I tried to take a picture but at night & by myself it hard to get a good pictures.
If you'll text me your cell number I'll send these 3 or 4 pictures.
my cell is 254-592-5455. I got a picture of what I think was the bottom plane. & I got a couple of pictures of the air intake hose passing around on the top of the motor .
... If you can post a picture repost them up here when you get them. I thought I had a great plan when I did the air hose around the front of the motor.
...I think it'll work in your 51 Mercery. . It'll be heavy but thats a tough old car.. SO I saynot a problem .
Wow papitt,

29 inches? Then the 4bt should totally fit in my Merc!

Thanks so much for your continued assitance/help!
I'm going to private message you my number so I can post the pics!

Thanks again :)
Cheers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
115 Posts
Wow papitt,

29 inches? Then the 4bt should totally fit in my Merc!

Thanks so much for your continued assitance/help!
I'm going to private message you my number so I can post the pics!

Thanks again :)
Cheers!
i put a 6b in my 50 lincoln, so you should have no problems getting a 4b in your merc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,812 Posts
On the question of a dry sump system, there are no kits for a 4bt that I know of. There are some for a 6bt which are designed for no holds barred competition engines. Price on those can range into the $4000-5000 range. They aren't cheap. I thought about designing one using just a scavenging pump and the main regular oil pump for the pressure section. Have to remember with the dry sump you also need a place to put a 2.5 gal or larger oil storage tank. Also, there's a custom oil pan to be built and a good bit of expensive plumbing. Might build one for $2000-3000 but that's not going to cure the engine height issue. Where the oil pan fits over a cross member is probably only 2" or a tad more. The sump area of the pan could be shortened or reshaped to gain some ground clearance. We have a member who has put one in a Dodge car. The fact that the crank is inside the block skirt makes the engine very tall. If I had the correct dimensions of the engine block, I could tell you a very close overall measurement. I have an oil pan and a head.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
hello pinky49 - Thanks for reassuring me! I really hope it fits!
Do you have a build thread? May I ask what you did to make the engine fit?

Thanks so much char1355 - I guess a dry sump system is always the fall back or a 4bd1t

Also, thanks edpruss - for the advice/tip. Another fall back idea!

Attached are the photos papitt wanted to be posted. Thanks papitt !!
 

Attachments

·
Vendor
Joined
·
2,641 Posts
The pickup tube sits below the block skirt another 2.5" towards the front. A sharp 90 instead of a radius might shorten it some.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
990 Posts
Thanks Goat for the reply.
What do you think the max you can remove from the oil pan?
I'll take look at your build :)
You can remove as much as you want as long as you don't lose oil volume. 9qts would be my limit if I were to do it blind. Which is just 1" of sump height.

Oil in a diesel not only serves as a lubricant but also a coolant and a solvent for carbon deposits. So when you lose volume the average temperature of the oil goes up and also the concentration of the contaminants.

Could you run less volume? Sure but you would have much shorter oil change intervals. The scientist in me would use an oil temperature gauge in conjunction with used oil analysis to determine minimum volume for an oil change intervals of say 3k miles.

Blackstone labs has some sharp tribologists that can't shut up about the subject if you can get one on the phone. Might be worth it to give them a call.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,812 Posts
Yes Goat, the oil in a diesel is one place where more is better than less. You could shorten the pan sump several inches and add side pocket like some racing pans. That would help shorten the amount hanging down under the vehicle but won't change the height inside the engine compartment. Even with a dry sump system you won't get the overall height any shorter inside the compartment. Most dry sump pans are 2-3" tall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,323 Posts
Thank you char1355, MaxPF also recommended a dry sump system.
Do you happen to know any kits I could research or around how much such a system would cost?
To be clear, I didn't recommend a dry sump system. I only mentioned that I dry sump would allow for the shortest possible pan. In reality, a kick-out style pan is probably going to be your best compromise, assuming you have the room for it AND it holds enough volume when all is said and done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Hey Everyone,

Thanks so much for your continued advice/knowledge sharing!

I'll try to reply when I get back from a funeral Monday morning.

Thanks again, this should all help the mechanic I'm looking to work with :)
Regards,
Kevin
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top