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Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster on this board. I have been contemplating a small mod on my 4BTA (CPL 857) that just seems too obvious not to do, but I have not seen anyone post that they have tried it before. Maybe it isn't as obvious as I think.

Anyway, my idea is to remove the factory coolant lines that run from the engine to the aftercooler and hook them back together; completely bypassing the aftercooler with the engine coolant. Then you install a radiator from a small car out in front of the engine radiator (or maybe even a couple of heater cores in series?) and an inline 12v water pump and create a completely separate cooling system for the aftercooler. Wouldn't that have to run a bunch cooler than pumping 180 degree engine coolant through there and help make more power? If an aftercooler running @ 180 degrees bumps the factory HP rating from 105 (non-aftercooled) to 120, how much difference would it make if you could maintain the aftercooler temp @ 100 degrees or so?

Please let me know what you think, or if I am not the first one to think of this, let me know how it worked out for you!

Rick
 

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cool idea....lol

Sounds like a great idea to me. I will be running a 5 gallon fuel cell with ice water running through it for the drags. You should have quite a bit a difference on water temp, since it will cool down even more while at low boost/temps. I would think as long as its large enough and has enough air moving across it for proper heat removal, it would be a great set up. My 2 cents, and good luck....
 

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Ihave been thinking the same, maybe have idea

Ihave been preping the yevengine compartment on my 1985 chevy. I removed the heater box to paint the firewall. The evaperater core on the chevy looks like it would make an excellent radiator for the aftercooler itI am guessing 16" x 10" x 4" thick all aluminum with a fan on it or fust out front I think this thing would probally do it. the ac lines could just be hooked up to the after cooler lines with a pump and a small tank.
 
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Mercedes 300 diesels have an electric water pump that just circulates the coolant to the heater core, i guess to make it get heat faster. I don't know what the volume is, but it might be something to look into.
 

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I have been running a teel pump from grainger for about 3 years on my rock buggy since the rad is in the back. It was about 100 bucks, and for like 20 dollers extra I got a 5 year waranty. So far im totaly impressed with how it works, how small, and how quiet it is. My 2 cents :D
 

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http://www.1stgen.org/viewtopic.php?t=205

Read the posts of member seeker1056, he describes a set-up that uses bus heater cores, 12v pump and an auxilliary heater with dual fans. It is a bit excessive for the daily driver but a version of it could be built very reasonably. 1" cores on those bus heater cores, that would do it for me if I were building one.
 

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In reality, I wonder how much more performance would be obtained with the water cooled aftercooler we are discussing compared to the Stock Water/Air Aftercooler as used on CPL 857's. Is the performance gain worth all the work and expense....I dont know.

Paul
 

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I have considered this before also since my engine is cpl 857. Have already stopped coolant through the jwac for an egt improvement. I have recently decided against the self contained coolant system because at best you could only cool the water down to ambient temp, the same as air/air aftercooler so there is no xtra benefit. I also believe the jwac may be an air restrictor if you do a turbo upgrade. Will be pulling mine off in a week or so and will keep everyone informed.
Carl

1979 F-250 crew cab 4 x 4
4 bta with modified H1C
Cold air intake
ZF S-42 5 speed
Borg Warner 1356 x-case
Dana 60 rear
Dana 44 front
3.55 gears
255/85R16 tires (33.5x10.5)
Hydroboost steering and brakes
Custom 40 gal. fuel tank
Much more later
 

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I would want to check charge air temps before and after converting to closed loop before I made a determination. I doubt there would be much of an air restriction if properly sized, that guy is over 500 horsepower and has a goal for 700. I can't imagine it is much of a streetable daily driver but he claims it is. I think a closed loop system on a 6BT approx. 350+ HP is in my future.
 

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I have recently decided against the self contained coolant system because at best you could only cool the water down to ambient temp, the same as air/air aftercooler so there is no xtra benefit. I also believe the jwac may be an air restrictor if you do a turbo upgrade.
Firstly everything in the airstream is a flow restriction. But a working intercooler increases the density far beyond the small pressure drop it causes.

If properly sized there's no performance difference either way from a water/air or air/air intercooler. Either can only cool the charge down to ambient temp.
The difference is in packaging and what is going to fit your particular installation.

Since you already have the air/water cooler in place and working (even if currently disconnected), it's a no brainer compared to the headaches of trying to fit a front mount air/air intercooler.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Since you already have the air/water cooler in place and working (even if currently disconnected), it's a no brainer compared to the headaches of trying to fit a front mount air/air intercooler.
This was my thought exactly for my truck, especially after reading the info in the link provided by sdstriper. I am not looking for ragged edge horsepower production, just a simple and cheap way to improve upon what I already have, and it sounds as if this will definitely help. FWIW, I found a link while doing some aftercooler research that has enough math in it to make your head hurt. This guy is into salt flats racing and covers a wide variety of charge cooling methods including water to air aftercoolers and how to properly size them. He even says:

The data is also for much warmer water than 32F, more like 70. As you can see, the water to air, even when the water is at ambient temperature, the water to air is almost twice as efficient as the air to air.
I will let you know how it goes once I get my system updated, and here is that link:

http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24
 

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FWIW, I found a link while doing some aftercooler research that has enough math in it to make your head hurt. This guy is into salt flats racing and covers a wide variety of charge cooling methods including water to air aftercoolers and how to properly size them. He even says:



I will let you know how it goes once I get my system updated, and here is that link:

http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24
Thanks for the link, will check it out later.
I went through and analysed my old homemade water/air IC a few years back. After about three pages of hand calcs I came out with 10% effective, but measurements on it working showed 15%.
The calculations are usually conservative, you can expect a real one in good condiiton to do a little better.
 

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What is typical temperature of the charge air coming out of the turbo
on a Summer day. I realize the outside temperature has large effect, just looking for ball park figures out of curiosity ?

Paul
 

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300*-400*F... Depends on the intake temp, restrictions, outside temp, application. Etc..

Don't go over 400* comp outlet. Al starts to lose strength over that.
 

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What is typical temperature of the charge air coming out of the turbo
on a Summer day. I realize the outside temperature has large effect, just looking for ball park figures out of curiosity ?

Paul
At 15psi boost on a 20deg C day with a 70% efficient compressor, the outlet temp is about 113 deg C.
Hot enough to boil water.
 

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Thanks guys for the Typical output temps. I had no idea what they ran. Based on these typical temps, and using the cummins water/air aftercooler running engine coolent, the temperature drop is not that great. Is cooling these typical temps down to engine coolent temp really making that much difference ? The CPL 857 engines I use with water/air aftercoolers are cummins rated 120 hp compared to a 4BT at 105 HP . Is it just the cooling or are the water/air engines also turned up more fuel from the factory?

Paul
 

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Thanks guys for the Typical output temps. I had no idea what they ran. Based on these typical temps, and using the cummins water/air aftercooler running engine coolent, the temperature drop is not that great. Is cooling these typical temps down to engine coolent temp really making that much difference ? The CPL 857 engines I use with water/air aftercoolers are cummins rated 120 hp compared to a 4BT at 105 HP . Is it just the cooling or are the water/air engines also turned up more fuel from the factory?

Paul
i always understood the air to water to help to get it a little better, but with a pyro/boost you could watch it yourself. thats one reason i never pursued the swap that hard...
 
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