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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone see a problem using a 4L60E with a 4bta, or have experience? I don't see a problem - looks preferable to the 700r4 (non-electronic 4L60) with its limited transparency and the throttle cable quirkiness.
Am leaning this way - don't have much faith in the 700r4 after reading and witnessing its shortcomings
 

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Probably depends what you plan on doing with it and how much power and torque you plan on feeding it.

I have almost 20k miles on mine in a 5500# vehicle with a mild non intercooled tune. The damage I've done to it has been self inflicted faults due to workmanship.

I personally think it is a serviceable tranny in a mild application with zero or very light towing such as a jeep or SUV. I'm running a us shift standaone controller which gets the shifting job done without too much fuss. I dropped a basic tune in it from the outset and haven't had to mess with it much since then.

Also Gary, I've followed your rebuild thread. What is your vehicle application? The 4L60 has some of the same physical limitations as the 700r but with a good controller you can control line pressures and shift points much better for longevity.
 

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Anyone see a problem using a 4L60E with a 4bta, or have experience? I don't see a problem - looks preferable to the 700r4 (non-electronic 4L60) with its limited transparency and the throttle cable quirkiness.
Am leaning this way - don't have much faith in the 700r4 after reading and witnessing its shortcomings
4L60E has the same shortcomings. If you want an OD 4 speed automatic I would highly suggest sticking with a 47RH/47RE/48RE or a 4L80E.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi Casey,
The application is my 94 landcruiser (heavy suv, with a 4" lift and 33in tires) - highway driving, mild offroading and occasional rockcrawling.
The 4bta is underpowered for highway driving - we can cruise at 60-65 on flat highway, and 40mph up hills on highway- without EGT getting too high). The 4bta is perfectly fine for offroading however. From what I've read, the 700r4/4L60e (properly built) can easily handle the 4bta - the primary issue is the line pressure. General agreement that at low RPM, and under load, there isn't enough line pressure from the pump. This jives with the 3/4 clutch slip (heat) I see going up hills. With a 4L60E, the controller ought to compensate for this, or at the very least issue error codes. The 4L60E is modern with all the improvements mine lacks (1988 700r4).. looks like the 4L65e is still being built.

Hi MaxPF,
Looks like a 4L80E would fit lengthwise- my remaining concerns is the extra weight and whether it would fix in the other dimensions. It does cost a good bit more - perhaps one option is getting a junked 4L80E to verify the fit, before dropping $3k on having one shipped.
(dimensions) http://www.tciauto.com/tc/trans-dim/
(good writeup) http://www.jakesperformance.com/4L80E_FAQ.html
Here are folks using a similar larger transmission (nv4500) for the 4bta/6bta in a landcruiser - http://duiser.com/ I'll email them directly - considering they are work with this vehicle-engine combo - and update this thread.

-Gary
 

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Gary, what gears are you running?

The 4L80e is about 4" longer than the 60. Output shafts are different so you will need to find out if your transfer case can be swapped to a 32 spline input shaft.

The good thing about upgrading to an 80 is it will bolt right up to your adapter. Bad thing is you will likely need to modify your cross member, driveshafts and transfer case input.

I have plenty of power to cruise between 65-70 but I am overgeared trying to cruise any faster. 4.56 factory gearing on 35s.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi Casey,
Its stock gearing which would be 4.11 in the rear differential I believe. Looking online, folks recommend moving it up to 4.88 for the tire size currently uses. You have a 4bt that works well at highway speeds - any issue with sustained climbs?
32 spline output shaft on the 4L80? Thanks for pointing that out, I missed it. That'll certainly increase the scope. Modifying the transfer case, or adding adapters, and modifying crossmembers is beyond my ability. I'd need a proven combination to hand off to a shop to perform -- eg like the nv4500 druiser is using, those that involves adding a clutch. The 4L60E looks like my best bet so far still. The 4x4 builds I see online can take the 4bt, assuming they build it with the the low-rpm/line-pressure issue in mind.
Thank you for thinking this all out with me - working on the 700r4 has been interesting, but am now getting anxious to get it solved and done.
-g
 

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Hi MaxPF,
Looks like a 4L80E would fit lengthwise- my remaining concerns is the extra weight and whether it would fix in the other dimensions. It does cost a good bit more - perhaps one option is getting a junked 4L80E to verify the fit, before dropping $3k on having one shipped.
I helped my friend swap one into an S-10 behind a small block. A bit of massaging was needed where the bellhousing relief in the firewall transitions to the tunnel. Nothing drastic, mind you. Other than that it fit very nicely, and the S-10 doesn't have a big tunnel by any stretch of the imagination.

Cost is a strange thing. For whatever reasons shops charge a lot more to build an 80. Having built a few myself, as well as building 60's, my experience has been that a mildly built 80 costs the same or less than a 60 built to supposedly handle the same power. However, that assumes you can DIY. Remember, you don't need a built 4L80e to handle a stock to moderately modified 4BT. A transgo kit and a few Sonnax parts (reverse boost valve fix, AFL bore sleeve and new spool valve, torlon check balls) combined with regular green high-energy (Borg Warner) clutches on an otherwise stock transmission makes a pretty stout piece. You also don't want to skimp on the converter. The rest is in the tuning.

Keep this in mind when you are considering cost: if the 4L60e fails (and it will, eventually), what will your costs be at that point? Especially if you realize you have to go to an 80 anyway? You may end up saving a little now and spending quite a bit more later...

32 spline output shaft on the 4L80? Thanks for pointing that out, I missed it. That'll certainly increase the scope. Modifying the transfer case, or adding adapters, and modifying crossmembers is beyond my ability.
The aftermarket sells 27 spline output shafts for the 4L80E (they also work in the TH400). They are designed for 4L80E swaps into vehicles originally equipped with 4L60Es that need a stronger trans due to engine mods, like Camaros, 1/2 ton puckups, etc. They are often 2wd slip-yoke shafts, but they can be cut down to 4wd length if they are too long. I prefer to stay with the stronger 32 spline shaft and replace the input on the t-case, but I realize that may not be possible in some cases. It really depends on what t-case you are using, and what iis available in the way of input shafts.

If you need a shorter tailhousing for a 4L80e, that's doable as well. I helped a friend swap a 6.0/4L80e combo into a Jeep. A shortened tail housing was made in order to reach the same approximate OAL as the 4L60e. Actually, IIRC it may have ended up a bit shorter. We also had to shorten the output shaft AND slightly shorten the t-case input shaft, but the entire assembly ended up letting him fit a surprisingly long (for a Jeep) driveshaft. Here's pics of the shorty tailhousing:







BTW, if you do end up going for an 80e, get a later one that returns the cooler line to the center support. They are better than the earlier ones that have both cooler line ports together near the bellhousing. Actually, the newer the better, since they made several revisions in the late 90's ro early 2000's that makes sourcing hard parts (if needed) a PITA.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
MaxPf,
Nice run down, that helps demystify the 4L80e. My t-case is stock - takes a 27 spline input. The tailhousing is likely stock, and supports the t-case shifter, and connects to the crossmember - https://www.flickr.com/photos/gneier/15550213301/
Will do some more research on the 4L80 vs 4L60 - contact of these online rebuilt trans shops regarding custom output shafts. And look for a junk 4L80/60 to use for fitment and as the core return.
-Gary
 

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MaxPf,
Nice run down, that helps demystify the 4L80e. My t-case is stock - takes a 30 spline input. The tailhousing is likely stock, and supports the t-case shifter, and connects to the crossmember - https://www.flickr.com/photos/gneier/15550213301/
Will do some more research on the 4L80 vs 4L60 - contact of these online rebuilt trans shops regarding custom output shafts. And look for a junk 4L80/60 to use for fitment and as the core return.
-Gary
OK, I didnt realize you were using a LC t-case. I suppose I should have. Anyway, are you sure about the input spline count? My Toyota experience is admittedly limited, but I thought 19, 21, and 23 spline were typical. Whether the t-case is adaptable to the 80 depends on the input shaft. Does it currently mate to the stock 27 spline 700 output shaft, or does your 700 have an aftermarket output shaft that mates to the stock LC t-case? Your current configuration will decide if it is even possible to adapt the LC case to an 80. Anything is possible with custom parts, of course, but the cost could be prohibitive.

FWIW, the 700R4 has a 4-bolt tailhousing, which your adapter is mated to. Early 4L60e's had 4-bolt tailhousings as well, but the more desirable late 4L60e's all have 6 bolt tailhousings, so your current adapter would not work on those. Just something to keep in mind if you choose to go forward with a 4L60e build.
 

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Does your transfer case have a standard 6 bolt flange? A standard 4x4 unit may work depending on stub out of the shaft from the adapter face.
 

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MaxPf,
Geez, thank you for pointing that out. Its a custom long 27 spline output shaft. Here is a picture of the shaft, out 5 1/2 inches from the body, along with the atsg manual. Would have to yank it out if my 700r4 rebuild dies - for the 4l60/80 rebuild folks.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gneier/15523751633/
-Gary
If you are POSITIVE that it is 27 spline, then the shaft will not be an issue as PATC and others sell 27 spline output shafts for the 4L80e. The adapter between the case and the 80 could be a problem if nobody already has one.

Do you have the HF1A or HF2A transfer case? If so, and IF you still have the original input gear for the t-case, Marks 4WD makes a complete adapter kit to mate the 4L80e to those cases.

Does your transfer case have a standard 6 bolt flange? A standard 4x4 unit may work depending on stub out of the shaft from the adapter face.
Nah, the LC cases are oddballs. They don't even take the same cases as the Toyota pickups and 4Runners. Even the "standard" 6 bolt flange isn't very standard. The pattern is not symmetrical, and the different manufacturers alter the clocking/spacing.
 

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Nah, the LC cases are oddballs. They don't even take the same cases as the Toyota pickups and 4Runners. Even the "standard" 6 bolt flange isn't very standard. The pattern is not symmetrical, and the different manufacturers alter the clocking/spacing.
Sounds familiar. My Borg Warner H3 case is a complete oddball. 5 bolt flange, would have to switch output shaft and make a custom adapter to use the 4L80e. One of the many reasons I'm using the 60.
 

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Hi Casey,
Its stock gearing which would be 4.11 in the rear differential I believe. Looking online, folks recommend moving it up to 4.88 for the tire size currently uses. You have a 4bt that works well at highway speeds - any issue with sustained climbs?
That's not horrible for the gearing but a bit overgeared like me. 60 mph = 1758; 70mph = 2051. I cruise at 70, 2200 rpms at about 825-850 EGT on flat ground. You need to tune your pump to control the EGTs. More power screw and less ramp on the fuel pin will help the midrange, mid boost cruise power.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
It would be a Full time transfer case, based on the descriptions of what "full time" means. I can run the vehicle in 4wd on pavement without binding. However, it appears to not be a stock landcruiser transfer case - doesn't match any of the pictures I see online. Will need to contact the previous owner/mechanic to see what they know.
Yep, 27.. counted it a few times. I see the kit here: http://www.marks4wd.com/mfk1195-80e.html

Thank you both for helping. This is quite the detective story.
 

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Sounds familiar. My Borg Warner H3 case is a complete oddball. 5 bolt flange, would have to switch output shaft and make a custom adapter to use the 4L80e. One of the many reasons I'm using the 60.
For the life of me I have no idea why GM did that. Actually, the H3 case isn't quite an oddball; GM also used the 5 bolt pattern on the NP231C cases used in S-10 trucks and Blazers. Pretty sure the 5 bolt pattern was also used on the Colorado/Canyon and TrailBlazer, but not 100%.

While an output shaft swap would be needed (or a 32 spline input in the t-case, if one is available), I don't know if a truly custom adapter would be required. If the pilot and flange diameter on the 5 bolt case is the same as the 6 bolt case you could simply re-drill an OE 6-bolt adapter for the 5 bolt pattern. Yeah, it's a couple "if's", but you never know until you measure it.
 

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It would be a Full time transfer case, based on the descriptions of what "full time" means. I can run the vehicle in 4wd on pavement without binding. However, it appears to not be a stock landcruiser transfer case - doesn't match any of the pictures I see online. Will need to contact the previous owner/mechanic to see what they know.
Yep, 27.. counted it a few times. I see the kit here: http://www.marks4wd.com/mfk1195-80e.html

Thank you both for helping. This is quite the detective story.
From what I have read the 90's vintage 80 series cruisers should have an HF1A (part-time) or HF2A (full-time). You are right that your case doesn't look like an HF1A or HF2A. Makes me wonder what it really is...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Found out its a "split case transfer case from a 60 series". Code "5I9506" which means #506 manufactured in Sept 1985. Those babies are very hard to find online. There is an adapter bolted on to convert the 27 to 10 spline. The adapters and split t-case are all incredible expensive. I'm going to have to stick with this t-case and hopefully the adapter.

Also visited my local aamco folks, where a very nice guy listened to my project and offered advice. I got a valve body pin and checkball needed to finish my 700r4 partial rebuild (separate thread)
 

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Found out its a "split case transfer case from a 60 series". Code "5I9506" which means #506 manufactured in Sept 1985. Those babies are very hard to find online. There is an adapter bolted on to convert the 27 to 10 spline. The adapters and split t-case are all incredible expensive. I'm going to have to stick with this t-case and hopefully the adapter.
I think I would try to source the HF2A. That is the case that should be in a 90's vintage 80. I wonder why he went to an older case?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Turns out there is no after market adapter to mate the 700r4/4Lxx to the stock Landcruiser 80 series transfer case. Fortunately the 60 series transfer case has performed well - albeit a little sticky. I checked with George of Valley Hybrids. He's been working on Landcruisers for a long time. He confirms that a 4L80e will fit.
 
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