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I have the 3 section pump - Picture above appears to be a 3 section pump.
 
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1972 F250 4x4, 78 d44, np205
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Eggman, thanks for your ideas on weight distribution especially related to your crew cab.
Sounds like you’ve done the ‘200 hp’ recipe- are you satisfied with your reliability?

I was originally going to put the ford 300 in there for it’s lighter weight/torque output and I also have been weary of the 6cyl’s weight. I have a pretty healthy 390 in there now getting about 13 mpg highway, so that’s good to hear you’re satisfied with having replaced your 390 without regret. Down the road I’d like to get the fuel tank out of the cab and between the frame rails to help even out the f/r weight and smooth the ride some.
The simplicity of the engine is great. However, I am discovering adapting what was pretty much a loader engine to a performing engine is going to take a bit $$.
Sam
 

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1972 F250 4x4, 78 d44, np205
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Russ and char1355, thanks for the vac/ps information. I appreciate it! I called Paul Gould yesterday and put in an order in for the vacuum pump. It sounds like it will have everything from the gear/nitrile gasket vac pump front/rear rebuilt pieces, new keyed shafts/star washers, and the vac check valve. He said it should be simple to find the ps pump and studs.🤞

My mind was put at ease after this as I was thinking I was going to have to wire up a vacuum pump and use just a saginaw (no vacuum) unit because of the complexity of finding obsolete parts.

I usually enjoy finding a core and going through it myself with a parts kit but I equally like finding an independent specialist like Paul who specializes in passing on the knowledge and rebuilding one key component really well with the right parts.

Russ, when I’m at that point where I’ll mount to the engine I’ll be looking over your fabrication information for the brackets. He was out of them, but Paul also said the L bracket (cummins 3919619) is going for 50 bucks nowadays and recommended fabrication using channel steel. Seems as though some of these places gouge on price for these little pieces because they know the parts are needed.
Sam
 

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1972 F250 4x4, 78 d44, np205
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Milan, thanks for the information!
Is this air inlet size going to be restrictive?

There's zero complexity for air to air system. Water to air system is complex. The system efficiency and subsequent engine power enhancement is the key. As for the air intake this is what it's used:
View attachment 131302
Air compressor mount is in house fabrication, but generally the high-mount bracket will do the same job.
Let me know if you want more info/pictures. Milan
131308
2A2A94B9-B349-45EE-94E1-FA51A78E9758.jpeg
 

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Eggman, thanks for your ideas on weight distribution especially related to your crew cab.
Sounds like you’ve done the ‘200 hp’ recipe- are you satisfied with your reliability?

I was originally going to put the ford 300 in there for it’s lighter weight/torque output and I also have been weary of the 6cyl’s weight. I have a pretty healthy 390 in there now getting about 13 mpg highway, so that’s good to hear you’re satisfied with having replaced your 390 without regret. Down the road I’d like to get the fuel tank out of the cab and between the frame rails to help even out the f/r weight and smooth the ride some.
The simplicity of the engine is great. However, I am discovering adapting what was pretty much a loader engine to a performing engine is going to take a bit $$.
Sam
At the 200HP tune I would expect a properly built/maintained 4BT to meet the expectations of a Cummins.
Well there is a quote from '30's aviation, " Flying is easy...All it takes is airspeed & money" 🙃 well upgrading a Bump's drive train by 3 or 4 decades is a similar task,
but having logged well over 100,000 miles over nearly a decade while at the same time working out the little bumps in design along the way it was worth it.
I put ~ 1,500 miles a month on the truck I can and have made many 1,000 mile round trips in it sourcing parts and it routinely averages north of 15mpg with moving averages north of 65mph as long as I keep the CGVW under 12K.
IMHO it's as good of a "Ranch Truck" as you could ask for as she moves gracefully into her 5th decade.... But I'm a bit biased 😊
 

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In looking at your air intake plate, don't know that the 2" is too restrictive. Must remember that air is under pressure. Most higher powered engines had 2.5" or 3" intakes. Many 4bts would have intake plate 3921500 which would allow for lots of intake elbow options. Also allow for the intake heater should you need that.
 

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1972 F250 4x4, 78 d44, np205
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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
A bonus question for the ford 78-79 f250 4x4 power steering box guys. I checked with Redhat steering on dodge ps pump compatibility with the 78-79 f250 4x4 ps box. It sounds like the gears back in the 70's only used about 800 to 1,100 psi maximum pressure, and the Dodge ps pump (which would get run on the vac/ps unit) is likely building about 1,600psi.

Is there a way to back that pressure off a ways to keep the seals in the gear box safe?
Sam
 

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A bonus question for the ford 78-79 f250 4x4 power steering box guys. I checked with Redhat steering on dodge ps pump compatibility with the 78-79 f250 4x4 ps box. It sounds like the gears back in the 70's only used about 800 to 1,100 psi maximum pressure, and the Dodge ps pump (which would get run on the vac/ps unit) is likely building about 1,600psi.

Is there a way to back that pressure off a ways to keep the seals in the gear box safe?
Sam
Just a guess but there should be a way to change the relief PSI setting likely shims in the valve, I'd search to see who has done it or just pay a hydraulic shop an hours labor and have them do it.
 

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1972 F250 4x4, 78 d44, np205
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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Advice taken on the intake plate, I appreciate it.

On the subject of dodge pump pressure (1550psi max) on a 78-79 f250 4x4 power steering box (1000psi max), Here we go direct from the horse’s mouth from Borgeson:


Good Morning,

“The only pump we offer that is suitable to mount to the vacuum pump on the Cummins diesel is our #800328 that puts out 1450-1550 PSI with a flow rate of 3-3.5 GPM. Our #899001 pressure reducing kit will bring the maximum pressure down to the +/- 1000 PSI that you need for the Ford gearbox and is the best option for you in this situation.”

I’m running the benchwork steering 390 bracket/pump/lines kit, and it runs well. Didn’t want to put something in there that causes steering problems and damages the box.
 

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That is good info. Never realized there was that much difference in the Saginaw pump output pressure. if it wasn't for the vacuum pump option you could use your Ford pump, but the ones for the vacuum pump have that coupler mounted on the shaft.
 

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1972 F250 4x4, 78 d44, np205
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
A regionally respected local shop is installing 3.54 into the rear end. They found the carrier bearing spun and carrier is damaged, new carrier ordered.

They did the first diff rebuild 3 years ago on the same axle. There were what appeared to be tiny tac welds on the bearing surface of the outer carrier race of the spun bearing.

Can’t see how this would’ve happened other than that I had to do frame welding for the PS box after that axle was installed. Thinking it was a welding grounding incident welding the rollers to the races then breaking off (leaf springshave rubber bushings so maybe not). Or, the shop was cutting corners on shimming correctly by welding to add metal to the race or using a punch.

Should I pick my stuff up from them and do it myself?

When taking delivery at the shop before settling the bill, I’m going to take the diff cover off to look over the work. I suppose I should be looking for gear paint, welds, and checking for smooth operation.

Anything I should check for before paying the bill if I have them do it.
Thanks
Sam
 

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A bit of a dead horse deal here, but I would like to note that the actual weight difference from a VE 4BT to a VE 12 valve is right around 150 pounds. In addition, a 4BT is always situated much further forward in the engine bay due to it's compromised turbo location. I have built many vehicles using both 4BT and 6BT. In several instances I have done direct comparisons with the same vehicles using a 4BT VS a 6BT. Usually the front axle weight is about 50 lbs more with the 12 valve and the rear axle weight is 100 lbs more with the 12 valve.

As for radiator, intercooler and AC condensor- These parts can all be sourced as a package when you purchase a 91.5 to 93 Dodge for your conversion. You use it all, even the fan shroud and the hoses fit.

Power steering is not a problem. The old box will run just peachy with increased pressure. It is just a torsion valve with a piston. The seals will have no issue with increased pressure. Those old Ford pumps were terrible. Saginaw is a monster improvement.
 

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A regionally respected local shop is installing 3.54 into the rear end. They found the carrier bearing spun and carrier is damaged, new carrier ordered.

They did the first diff rebuild 3 years ago on the same axle. There were what appeared to be tiny tac welds on the bearing surface of the outer carrier race of the spun bearing.

Can’t see how this would’ve happened other than that I had to do frame welding for the PS box after that axle was installed. Thinking it was a welding grounding incident welding the rollers to the races then breaking off (leaf springshave rubber bushings so maybe not). Or, the shop was cutting corners on shimming correctly by welding to add metal to the race or using a punch.

Should I pick my stuff up from them and do it myself?

When taking delivery at the shop before settling the bill, I’m going to take the diff cover off to look over the work. I suppose I should be looking for gear paint, welds, and checking for smooth operation.

Anything I should check for before paying the bill if I have them do it.
Thanks
Sam
Difficult to prove anything in your situation. Even if they did crap work 3 years ago that's still long past when anyone would warranty it.

Lets say if bearings were tight and welding current was passed through them. What would that look like? Probably nothing like a weld. It would just make a mark if anything. I would find it very difficult to see how welding current would be passed through carrier bearings even if you attached the ground clamp to the axle and welded on the pinion yoke. That is not the shortest path for the current in any situation I could think of.

Dana 60/70 light duty carrier bearings are very often spun on the ring gear side.

I put about 60, maybe 65k miles on a highboy just like what you're planning to build with a 4BT. I know what I'm doing with diff stuff and had the same D60 carrier bearing spin twice in that time frame.

If I were in your situation I would exchange the stock 16 spline out at the first sign of a problem and upgrade to a 14 bolt, Sterling 10.25 or a late model AAM axle.

I have a D70 from a 77 super camper under my 12 valve highboy. It has an easy life so it is doing fine, but I am on the lookout for a cab chassis Sterling 10.25 to bolt under there. The Sterling axles are a very nice axle. The cab chassis axles bolt under a highboy and the have monster sized brakes that pair well with the front discs.
 

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...Power steering is not a problem. The old box will run just peachy with increased pressure. It is just a torsion valve with a piston. The seals will have no issue with increased pressure. Those old Ford pumps were terrible. Saginaw is a monster improvement.
My F150 was a $1,000 Cragslist purchase - Thoroughly thrashed, barely ran well enough to drive on a UHaul trailer. I used a random Dodge/Saginaw vacuum/power steering pump found in the corner of a friend's shop. Eventually, the Saginaw started leaking and the vac/ps pump unit was replaced with a new Dorman branded unit. 9 years, 72+K miles and 37 states later the original power steering box still does not leak.

Russ
 
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Thanks for the spefic tip on years/models on sterling/D70. Going to check the shop's work, get this of the driveway, and on the road then look at the sterling later on. I have a 108 year old garage at the back but there's a slight slope into it which makes me nervous doing axle work even with wheels chocked.

At this point on a sterling I'm wary of the rabbit holes with cost of drive shaft, brakes up grade, ebrake, wheel bolt spacing (new wheels), and any other non 'bolt-in' tasks.
131408

If I were in your situation I would exchange the stock 16 spline out at the first sign of a problem and upgrade to a 14 bolt, Sterling 10.25 or a late model AAM axle.

I have a D70 from a 77 super camper under my 12 valve highboy. It has an easy life so it is doing fine, but I am on the lookout for a cab chassis Sterling 10.25 to bolt under there. The Sterling axles are a very nice axle. The cab chassis axles bolt under a highboy and the have monster sized brakes that pair well with the front discs.
Russ, I read your entire build thread the other day (helped me procrastinate sanding drywall). I hate to procrastinate so I put things off immediately! It was good to see how you wanted to do yours with parts on your shelf, 'on the cheap.' I try to do this also and am putting together a list of places that I can find stuff for less.

I have Badger Diesel on my list for doing good work and not charging the rate some of these premier diesel supply 'bro-truck' places are charging for stuff.

Got a Promaxx head, guessing it has the stock valve springs (non 60LBS). One thing at a time, will take it to the machine shop and have it checked over and probably do some valve grinding and swap out the springs if needed. Anyone know how to tell if they're stock or 60LBS?

131409

Had it shipped fedex to a terminal to avoid damage, and it appears undamaged.

131410


I compared them side by side with the original cracked head and from a few basic measurements they measure the same, seems like this one has stouter castings, more metal.

I'm 43 years old type 1 diabetic and had a bit of a heart health scare involving paramedics/ER on my family vacation to Seattle/Portland recent during the heat wave up there but am fortunately am 'ok' with a 'good strong heart.' So, I'm going to 'adjust' my rate of work on the project more toward my priorities, age, longevity, and budget.

I admire Russ banging out his projects at his age and accomplishing his bucket list.

My F150 was a $1,000 Cragslist purchase - Thoroughly thrashed, barely ran well enough to drive on a UHaul trailer. I used a random Dodge/Saginaw vacuum/power steering pump found in the corner of a friend's shop. Eventually, the Saginaw started leaking and the vac/ps pump unit was replaced with a new Dorman branded unit. 9 years, 72+K miles and 37 states later the original power steering box still does not leak.

Russ
 

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... Russ, I read your entire build thread the other day (helped me procrastinate sanding drywall).
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I'm 43 years old type 1 diabetic and had a bit of a heart health scare involving paramedics/ER on my family vacation to Seattle/Portland recent during the heat wave up there but am fortunately am 'ok' with a 'good strong heart.' So, I'm going to 'adjust' my rate of work on the project more toward my priorities, age, longevity, and budget....
Good call on sanding drywall - Last time I did that was summer of 1973 (lived in MA then, the temperature and humidity was 99 ;))

I've slowly (over 35 years) overhauled a crudely built 24" x 28" outbuilding into a drive-in workshop. Added real windows and doors. Resided with some structural repairs - installed fiberglass insulation (walls and underside of the roof) - 2 plug-in electric heaters will take the "curse" off of a cold winter morning. I slowly evolved from evaporative coolers (don't help much on a hot, rainy, humid day) to the biggest 220 Volt window air conditioner in stock at Home Depot. At some point, you begin to realize that all repairs must be permanent, because you won't physically be able to do it later.

I'm a type II, only take medicine (so far...). Diagnosed with congestive heart failure. Skilled cardiologists have given me many more usable years (open heart surgery and a heart valve repair).

Russ
 
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