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"Old codger eh?"

Well Charles, you have awakened this "old codger" but for the wrong reason. I read Jimmie's comment to be he is not getting anything from your particular posting. Your response does nothing to clarify the issue but is in reality bordering on the line of a personal attack on Jimmie. Your nose and toes have crossed the line but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you will not be taking the next step. Remember, engage brain BEFORE typing.
 

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"I'm positive I've never witnessed a person wasting more words or more of other people's time solely for the sake of impressing themselves."

Interesting that even though I named no person:

By, "hottest rigs", you mean getting your doors blown off by any one of the current diesel offerings produced by any one of the big three in bone stock form, as they are all producing over two and a half times your power output directly off of the lot. Are bone stock trucks the "hottest rigs" these days?

Answer: By hottest rigs I speak of vehicles with 4 wheels of any configuration. Unfortunately you will apparently permanently fail to see that there's far more to it than horse-power. My suspension is quite special, my brakes are incredible, my stock engine runs properly and my gears are near excellent for the setup, with the exception of the stretch between 3-4 with NV4500. It also refers, logically, to who else is driving what on these roads when I am. As for 'current diesel offerings' I stomped the tire treads off a very new Cummins Dodge a few days ago and the only way he could pass was when I backed off, plain and simple. Maybe it's because I know how to drive my rig. No, he wasn't on my bumper until I finally gave the road, but had gradually backed off long before when he couldn't manage the pace, maybe scaring himself.

"So in a thread where a man is plainly asking if he should have his pump modified for more power while it's at the injection shop, you say no, the 4BT has Plenty of power in stock form..........you just plan to add nearly half again what it has now in the future.......but you tell him to leave it alone now while it would be a total non-issue While it is at the injection shop to add this power saving him the time, money and hassle of doing it down the road. You're a saint."

Answer: thank you, it's nice to be a saint! It's not that complicated really. The truck has great performance right now, bone stock, and I love it. However I have been into racing since approximately 1961, international Grand Prix, SCCA, sanctioned and unsanctioned drag racing, world's record holding boats, motorcycles, you name it. Fast is in my blood. If I had a brand new Ferrari I'd have the hood up in a week, twisting screws a little bit more. Stock is GREAT! Tweaked is faster. I personally like faster. In my opinion the stock 4BT offers great power and performance for most uses.

"You have no conception of how a vehicle should drive..."

Answer: because you do not know me, have never met me, have no knowledge of my experience and no idea of my past exeprience or what I do now, your comment is a sterling example of having no idea what you are talking about.

"... you have taken away from this thread by saying that he should leave it alone, because it's the greatest thing since sliced bread bone stock and then you have completely invalidated yourself by actually stating that you plan to add nearly half again as much power to this engine in the future. That sure doesn't sound like something that just has all the power you ever wanted."

Answer: I have not taken away from this thread as I posted relevant to the topic, rather than to tell everybody in a Cummins 4BT thread how marvelous and amazing my Ford Powewrstroke is. Your imagination says that I said it had all the power that I ever wanted. What I said is exactly what I said: great power, and I now want more. Also, I already have the parts to do the job, because I was misinformed by many like you, causing me to purchase go-fast stuff before I had even driven the truck in stock form. If I hadn't pre-purchased I doubt I'd ever tweak it up much.

"You are not capable of understanding how an engine's output relates to the truck's performance. If you can't understand it after the explicit example above (lengthy in hopes of making it so crystal clear the even a retard could understand it) then you have no hope of ever realizing that power output is paramount, and why the applied torque of the vehicle is solely based on that power, not the torque produced at the flywheel, ahead of all the gearing."

Answer: Hahaha, you gotta be kidding! I've been buildng race engines since 1960-61, and I've driven most of the vehicles I built for. The problem is that I don't agree with you and for some reason that is beyond your tolerance levels. Thing is, that isn't my problem. I thoroughly understand the simple relationshps involved here, as well as the more complex in some cases. I ain't no genius but I get by.

"Basically, by completely whiffing the point, staggering around pissing on it and then falling down in your own piss and passing out on the point here you have absolutely no business pretending to tell anyone else anything at the systems level on vehicle design."

Answer: I've often heard it said that a person with nothing of real value to say, when faced with a personally frustrating situation, will then turn to insults or shouting louder to make their point. Ho-hummm.....accomplishes nothing. It's not even enough to make me dislike you as a person. However I have been actively involved in vehicle and propulsion sytem design for approximately 40 years, with world's and national records to reflect my endeavors.

"You can completely re-validate yourself here if you can only tell me why you couldn't simply run an 18hp Kohler engine with a 10:1 planetary reduction box attached directly to the shaft on the engine, running that into your transmission. The Kohler makes 30ft/lbs of torque over a VERY wide rpm range, much wider than the 4BT. And with a 10:1 reduction box, it would have an output torque of 300ft/lbs.....also more than your 4BT."

"I want you to honestly tell me why that would, or would not work in place of your 4BT that has less torque than that, over a narrower rpm range."

Answer: You're digging your own hole if you even have to propose such a ridiculous comparison. Law of diminishing returns, 1st & 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.

"Can you do that, or are you just above all of this and don't have the time to waste on it? Is this below you to actually think about?"

Answer: No, but it's pushing it. I value time, and time to distance :~ )

"I can't believe you say I have no contribution here. It is some of the ONLY contribution here. Any joe-blow can go along with the crowd, grunt, hold his nuts and talk about how torque is amazing. I took the time to actually figure this stuff out a long time ago, and have the sac to explain it time and time again in the face of comments like yours."

Answer: Okay, don't believe it, your choice. However this last post of yours simply makes my point, first made in the sentence that pushed all your buttons. Too bad you didn't pick up on what Bob S explained in such a wonderful way, but apparently it somehow exscaped you.

In the main my point now is that the thread is a request from a man for information related to 4BT performance, not about your Ford Powerstroke performance. I would suggest though, when you finally build your 4BT, try it out completlely stock before you turn it up, you might like it.

Check yourself.
Answer: I checked, everything's okay, thanks! Glad the gentleman already got his needed information before the rude interruptions.

JimmieD
 

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Not a total waste!

I'm positive I've never witnessed a person wasting more words or more of other people's time solely for the sake of impressing themselves.

That said, thanks first to Mcinfantry & BobS for great posts, and to Andre, Carl, TnDonor, Dougal, flyin71h, 52Wrench, and all the rest who actually contributed useful information!

Don't think twice about the 4BT. I run mine bone stock through some very serious mountains and tight twisty roads in a roughly 5,400 lbs & 40 year old truck and only the very hottest rigs can begin to keep up with me, or even want to try! Far more power than I ever expected, exactly as described by owners here: strong bottom end and mid-range TORQUE and smooth power throughout the operating range. Been driving it since May this year and still thrilled every time I get in and turn the key, and deeply impressed again after every single ride! With the fabulous mileage thrown in the bonus is I can actually afford to drive it.

I do plan to turn mine up around 30%-40% and that will just be that much more fun. :)
Hey, I think Charles does offer some very pertinent info on this board. Although he might be a little abrasive at times, I think Jimmy D's post was also a little abrasive! It's obvious that Jimmy D's post was aimed at Charles. Charles is totally correct about the Power Curve measured at the driving wheels as the true indicater of expected performance. Of course this is not accounting for vehicle weight, and factors such as rolling friction, etc.
Advice to Charles: You can attract a lot more flys with honey, rather than vinegar. Please tone down the abrasive rhetoric please!
Bob B. :beer:
 

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Hey, I think Charles does offer some very pertinent info on this board. Although he might be a little abrasive at times, I think Jimmy D's post was also a little abrasive! It's obvious that Jimmy D's post was aimed at Charles. Charles is totally correct about the Power Curve measured at the driving wheels as the true indicater of expected performance. Of course this is not accounting for vehicle weight, and factors such as rolling friction, etc.
Advice to Charles: You can attract a lot more flys with honey, rather than vinegar. Please tone down the abrasive rhetoric please!
Bob B. :beer:
pertinent information maybe, but there was too much other crap in his posts to warrant me reading them. With a limited number of hours in a day, being concise has it's advantages.

Charles, your writing reminds me of a motorcycle engine: 14000 rpms for 100hp, i'll keep my cummins, it gets to the point :D
 

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Not Usefull Information
 

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charles, im still waiting for you to build the briggs and stratton engined vehicle that can out pull my cummins.
you say its gearing

...............
To help ya'll understand a little more....

I have a '47 Farmall H tractor. Peak HP is about 17-19 at the drawbar (where you hook the plow and other stuff to). Just a little 4 banger equal to about 2.5L. It has hydraulics that take some hp as it is part of the driveline. The tires are 12.5X38. The weight is about 3,800 lbs. The gearing in it will out pull my 200hp+/450tq+ truck all day and everyday. Gearing in it brings its useful hp/tq curve to where it get a extra 10-15 hp at the wheels. But it will not be a drag racer. With enough gearing, it could out pull.:happyfinger:
 

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so what.

i dont care about any of that. he said he could build the briggs and stratton.

DO IT.
Hey mcinfantry,
With the right gearing and weight, a 5hp vehicle could be set up to pull your Cummins powered vehicle in half. It would do it at a very slow rate, but it could be done. I still think that Charles did offer pertinent info in this post. If you think this forum is just for people that have actually completed a 4bt swap and therfore are the only ones qualified to speak, then you are wrong. I don't mean to offend, but why don't we move along here--- nothing to see here?
Bob B.
 

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Okay I am sure its been answered somewhere but can't find it. I am looking at a 4bt and I know they have 2 different injector pump versions. The A pump (CPL 0858) that makes 105 HP and not sure the TQ rating and the P pump (Cpl 857, inline pump) that makes 120HP and again not sure on the TQ rating. If I did this swap I would like to get around 215HP and knowing me a bit more after I got used to that (I would try to stay under the 250HP mark to have a bit of life expectancy in the motor but understand that my motor would not make it as far as a stock version). If I found a 4bt with the CPL 0858 for a good deal, is there an aftermarket pump I could use to get more HP from it or would I be better off finding the CPL 857 and tuning that one. I have not seen any perfomance pumps to my knowledge but wondering if anyone has seen them. If any of my information is wrong could you please let me know.
 

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Use the Search, Luke!

Okay I am sure its been answered somewhere but can't find it. I am looking at a 4bt and I know they have 2 different injector pump versions. The A pump (CPL 0858) that makes 105 HP and not sure the TQ rating and the P pump (Cpl 857, inline pump) that makes 120HP and again not sure on the TQ rating. If I did this swap I would like to get around 215HP and knowing me a bit more after I got used to that (I would try to stay under the 250HP mark to have a bit of life expectancy in the motor but understand that my motor would not make it as far as a stock version). If I found a 4bt with the CPL 0858 for a good deal, is there an aftermarket pump I could use to get more HP from it or would I be better off finding the CPL 857 and tuning that one. I have not seen any perfomance pumps to my knowledge but wondering if anyone has seen them. If any of my information is wrong could you please let me know.
First, I'd advise to do a bit more reading.. Lots of good info about these in the FAQ and do a bit of searching. Personally, I use Google for searching the site. Just put in your search criteria followed by "site:4btswaps.com" (without the quotes) on google's page and you restrict your search in Google to just this site.

There's actually at least 4 pumps used on 4BTs of various flavors that I know about. Bosch VE, Bosch "A" inline, Bosch "P" inline, and I think a Stanadyne pump was in the mix. I think the "A" and Stanadynes were primarily found in non-automotive applications. Also, depending on the exact application, you can run into sub-versions of these pumps, too.

CPL 857 is a VE Pump with a air-water aftercooler, 120 HP. CPL 858 is VE Pump, no aftercooler, 105 HP. Either one can be taken to the HP levels you're looking at w/o much of a problem. If you're starting with an 858, you'll be wanting an aftercooler (air-to-air is generally considered best, if you can fit one).

The later models rated at 130 HP use the P-7100 pump. (I don't know the CPL for those off the top of my head..) My understanding is that the P pump has the potential for more power, but the VE can go WAY beyond the 120 HP rating with just some screw turning and near $0. (Ok.. $12 or so for a 3200 RPM spring.)

P-Pump power increases pretty much mean you're going to be doing some parts replacement / modification.

The A pumps are inline, but don't have the max fuel flow capability of the P pump, IIRC. Also unknown about the "tweakability" of those.
 

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I agree with machman.... you are pretty far off base, and you need to do some more reading.

The Bosch VE rotary pump you find on most bread van engines (and most pictures on this site) is capable of flowing enough fuel to melt your pistons and exhaust valves
(you DO need a pyrometer when tweaking these engines!)

The one big benefit of the P7100 inline pump is that if you need HUGE HP numbers (if racing) then you can get there more easily over a VE. If this is just a daily driver then the VE will do plenty for you. 215 HP shouldn't be a problem.

There was one other pump you will see on a LOT of stationary (generators, pumps, etc) applications, and that is the British CAV pump. (now known as CAV/Lucas/Delphi)
The CAV pumps are pretty crappy pumps in my opinion, and they are made for one steady RPM, anyway.
 

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Humm thanks for the clarification, I have read where the P-7100 pump won't fail if a fuel pump fails, the other pumps used in automotive use may work for a while and burn up (not the injector pumps fault that fuel pump failed, just was not designed to work that hard). At this moment I would like to find a P-7100 pump according to what I am reading (of course my eyeballs need to be recalibrated after finding out how far I was off the first time). I take it there are not any aftermarket P-7100 pumps in the market, just upgrade what you have. Thanks
 

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Humm thanks for the clarification, I have read where the P-7100 pump won't fail if a fuel pump fails, the other pumps used in automotive use may work for a while and burn up (not the injector pumps fault that fuel pump failed, just was not designed to work that hard). At this moment I would like to find a P-7100 pump according to what I am reading (of course my eyeballs need to be recalibrated after finding out how far I was off the first time). I take it there are not any aftermarket P-7100 pumps in the market, just upgrade what you have. Thanks

the injector pumps burn up because they get their lubrication from the fuel, if the fuel pump doesn't pump enough fuel, it will burn up. The P7100 is lubricated by engine oil, so this isn't an issue. If you are worried, run a fuel pressure gage and if it goes down, replace the lift pump.

Even the VP44 doesn't burn up immediately (like everyone makes it sound), my friend had his lift pump go and didn't know until he installed an Edge Juice on it, his has over 200k on it, and runs like a raped ape.
 

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Humm thanks for the clarification, I have read where the P-7100 pump won't fail if a fuel pump fails, the other pumps used in automotive use may work for a while and burn up (not the injector pumps fault that fuel pump failed, just was not designed to work that hard). At this moment I would like to find a P-7100 pump according to what I am reading (of course my eyeballs need to be recalibrated after finding out how far I was off the first time). I take it there are not any aftermarket P-7100 pumps in the market, just upgrade what you have. Thanks
You'll be cheaper in the long run to take the time and find a P-pumped 4BT up front if that's what you absolutely have to have rather than getting a 4BT with a different pump and converting it to a P pump. And it's not that the P pumps are indestructible, either.. For the price premium of the P pump engines, you could probably a carry spare lift pump and VE pump.

The only thing about the VE in our application is due to the distance (both lift and run) that the fuel typically has to travel which in turn means we have to have a separate lift pump. IIRC, the VW diesels used the VE pump without using a lift pump (the VE has a "lift pump" built in) because the fuel tank was so close and was almost level with the engine. As previously stated, get a fuel pressure gauge and keep an eye on it to monitor your lift pump.
 

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The later models rated at 130 HP use the P-7100 pump. (I don't know the CPL for those off the top of my head..)[/QUOTE said:
the cpls for the p pumped ones are 1839 and 2001 respectively. the only difference between them is the 1839 has a 2400rpm gov. spring and the other has a 3200rpm spring.
 

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For the price premium of the P pump engines, you could probably a carry spare lift pump and VE pump.
That's no lie....if you start to look into pricing, be prepared for unreal sticker shock.
 

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Wow, this is thread I've stumbled on balancing on a question I've had for a while. My Durango's specs:

7000-8000#'s
Rockwells (6.72 gearing)
53" Michelin tires

I've got the gearing, but I was planning on squeezing every bit of power (reliably) that I could out of this 4bt.
 

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Hey Stud, I'm doing the same, only using Unimog U1300l axles instead of the smaller Rocks :happyfinger:

7000-8000#'s
Rockwells (6.72 gearing)
53" Michelin tires



A healthy 4bt will work fine
 
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