[carcrafter22]

Seriously? general modification???

Do you guys realize almost everything on my truck is modded in a major way? The only thing even remotely stock right now is the body and when I get back home that will change with some major changes. Heck even the wheels wont just bolt on without special adapters. LOL.


So who would like to discuss making an electric vehicle? Maybe a hybrid specificly with a small diesel of course.

Lets make an imaginary vehicle and go into detail about it, we will need to pic an engine, electric motors how to use the electric power and how to get it to the ground.

Lets hear it.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

We need Gene Climer here.. . I'll send him an email, he runs the yahoo group and has been racing electric vehicles. He also has a ISB 170 in a killer old 4 door Dodge

 

[Machman]

Funny this should come up..

The neighbor and I were looking around the yard and talking about electric vehicles, and came up with this idea:

Convert a VW Van (late 70's flavor is fine), which is one of the few vehicles rated to carry MORE than it's empty weight in cargo, so batteries aren't an issue, and then I've got that 5.5KW Kubota genset that a person could drag along behind on a trailer for range extension purposes.

Crude? Yes. Do-able? Probably.

 

[birdmanslopy]

the concept is fairy simple
buy a electric motor, buy a plate to attach it to your transmission or make one stock then worry about how how anyone that has made it is range, the wiring i was told was fairly simple.
Theres a site that sells kits to convert your vehicle but i cannot post a link yet....
The farthest i read on someone making a electric vehicle in range was 50 miles straight batterys, it was a plug in hybrid that ran off of 16 12v deep cycle batterys if i wasnt mistaken and took 6 hours to recharge and could go 75 on the highway.
now i personally have my thoughts on making a electric vehicle traveling further, and i honostly believe i could design one to obtain 100 miles if not more! but i dont wanna have someone snatch my idea and possibly make a patent off it since this is a growing topic i seen
ill throw up some links later for everyone to see of peoples creations

 

[cumminsrover]

I have been thinking about this for quite some time, but not for fuel economy benefits. I want to use it for a rock crawler.

The system design I have been contemplating is:
Turbo diesel genset approx 25KW, so use Daihatsu/Briggs&Stratton or a Deutz
Lithium Ion or NiMH batteries
Ultra capacitors (for surge power)
A pair of 100-200KW motors (one front one rear)

I am having issues trying to source parts, but of course I haven't looked that hard yet since I am not done with my current rig :rasta:

One thing about EV's is people only think of the environmental impact of not directly burning gasoline and completely neglect the HUGE amount of resources consumed to produce the batteries.

Machman's idea is good, except 5.5KW is not enough to keep up with power usage during cruise. You'd want to be able to charge the batteries during steady state 65MPH cruise so you would need 15-20KW for a VW van, and if you were a one ton at 23,000 pounds, well, you'd want at least 100-150KW that.

 

[birdmanslopy]

id like to build one, i would wanna do a ranger though

 

[K204DR]

I got a kubota 2cyl diesel engine that would be cool to build into a hybrid vehicle.
just not sure of where to start looking for electric motor parts and what to use.

 

[birdmanslopy]

http://www.evequipmentsupply.com/page29.html

 

[cumminsrover]

http://www.evequipmentsupply.com/page29.html

There are no specifications on the motors

I would like to use brushless motors with regen braking, so I guess a bit more searching is required :rasta:

 

[birdmanslopy]

the basic motor is the one most people that do ev swaps.
can get you up to 80mph and weights the less.
theres a guy here in florida with a s10 7 batterys and claims to get 60 miles before recharging.

i of course have my idea that noone seems to have thought of for recharging but i gotta see if i can get a patent for it before i blabber my mouth about it lol.
if not ill throw the idea up for all ev'ers and it should make range life much easier.

ill link you to that guys s10 though as soon as i find it again

http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/green-motoring/535348-electric-truck-project-5.html

 

[cumminsrover]

I understand what you are saying, and that is a cool build.

What I am specifically looking for are motor specifications like:
Torque Constant (Nm/Amp)
Voltage Constant (rpm/Volt)
Motor Constant (Nm/sqrt(Watts))
Rated Peak Power (Watts)
Line-Line Resistance (Ohms)
Max Current (Amps)
Idle Current (Amps)
Max Operating Speed (rpm)
Cogging Torque (Nm, for brush-less motors)
Weight
Dimensions
Ambient temp and cooling requirements

And controller specifications like:
DC Input Voltage (Volts min, Volts max)
Output Current (Amps continuous, Amps peak and duration)
Equivalent Resistance (Ohms)
Ambient temp and cooling requirements
Features, such as reversible, regenerative brake, operating frequency, etc.

These are all very important parameters to consider when designing an electric vehicle. Without these pieces of information, you are just going by the seat of your pants and cannot guarantee that you will get the performance you are looking for.

EV conversions, like most diesel conversions mainly seem to focus on direct operating costs and completely neglect conversion costs. Most everyone here knows that our conversions are expensive and it is not completely about increasing fuel economy - it is about doing something few others have.

Let's keep this thread going so we can all gain some more knowledge before diving into the EV's and hybrid drive trains.

:beer:
Patrick

 

[birdmanslopy]

I understand what you are saying, and that is a cool build.

What I am specifically looking for are motor specifications like:
Torque Constant (Nm/Amp)
Voltage Constant (rpm/Volt)
Motor Constant (Nm/sqrt(Watts))
Rated Peak Power (Watts)
Line-Line Resistance (Ohms)
Max Current (Amps)
Idle Current (Amps)
Max Operating Speed (rpm)
Cogging Torque (Nm, for brush-less motors)
Weight
Dimensions
Ambient temp and cooling requirements

And controller specifications like:
DC Input Voltage (Volts min, Volts max)
Output Current (Amps continuous, Amps peak and duration)
Equivalent Resistance (Ohms)
Ambient temp and cooling requirements
Features, such as reversible, regenerative brake, operating frequency, etc.

These are all very important parameters to consider when designing an electric vehicle. Without these pieces of information, you are just going by the seat of your pants and cannot guarantee that you will get the performance you are looking for.

EV conversions, like most diesel conversions mainly seem to focus on direct operating costs and completely neglect conversion costs. Most everyone here knows that our conversions are expensive and it is not completely about increasing fuel economy - it is about doing something few others have.

Let's keep this thread going so we can all gain some more knowledge before diving into the EV's and hybrid drive trains.

:beer:
Patrick

i totally understand your point of view, as for drivetrain anything ive ever read about them people usually use 5 speeds or 6 speeds, if they convert to auto i heard of custom converters that are well over a grand.

In my opinion a simple ev to prove a point would consist of a ranger based truck, manual steering (no power steering of course) vaccume pump for brakes, 12 to 16 deep cycle 12v batterys to power the motor some parrell some series.
and making the truck as light as possible but not sacrificing frame structure or anything and lowering it slightly to reduce wind drag trying to make it areodynamic as possible.

i believe with just those factors and a way to recharge it connecting it to your house if your jobs 20 miles away one way and you do 50 mile round trips before the batterys die that itsself can be saving money and the range is proven from people making there own vehicle.
chevys volt that gets i believe 230mpg is amazing, but with the 30 grand you have to invest or more to get it, that things gonna take years to pay itsself off.
but an average family spends 900+ in gas a year, thats money that can be spent otherwhere.

with the economy being soo crappy i was unemployed for the past 6 months and had lots of time to read on how to make a ev and the price range to expect to pay.
you can be sure ill be attempting this once i get my feet back on the ground steady.

 

[cumminsrover]

i totally understand your point of view, as for drivetrain anything ive ever read about them people usually use 5 speeds or 6 speeds, if they convert to auto i heard of custom converters that are well over a grand.

In my opinion a simple ev to prove a point would consist of a ranger based truck, manual steering (no power steering of course) vaccume pump for brakes, 12 to 16 deep cycle 12v batterys to power the motor some parrell some series.
and making the truck as light as possible but not sacrificing frame structure or anything and lowering it slightly to reduce wind drag trying to make it areodynamic as possible.

i believe with just those factors and a way to recharge it connecting it to your house if your jobs 20 miles away one way and you do 50 mile round trips before the batterys die that itsself can be saving money and the range is proven from people making there own vehicle.
chevys volt that gets i believe 230mpg is amazing, but with the 30 grand you have to invest or more to get it, that things gonna take years to pay itsself off.
but an average family spends 900+ in gas a year, thats money that can be spent otherwhere.

with the economy being soo crappy i was unemployed for the past 6 months and had lots of time to read on how to make a ev and the price range to expect to pay.
you can be sure ill be attempting this once i get my feet back on the ground steady.

Agreed! That sucks about your employment problems and unfortunately I know several people with the same problem Hope it gets better soon!

Here is one place that has a very similar idea to mine, and is similar to your's.
http://www.rasertech.com/motors-and-drives/products/drive-systems/series-phev-drive-system

I would like to make something similar to the Raser Tech drivetrain, but use a TDI or Common-Rail motor. If I were using it for a rock crawler or car, I would probably only have about 1-2L engine and 25-50KW for the genset and a 200KW traction motor. But for the full-size, 2-4L engine and 100-200KW is definitely a good size for the genset.

This sort of thing would also be well suited to Randy's idea of the tow-behind genset. Who needs to haul around that extra stuff commuting to and from work (most of us don't)...

 

[birdmanslopy]

LogiSystems Controller 120 Volt 550 Amps controler

got a question i feel stupid asking, but if you ran say 12 12v batterys for that controller to function properly and had a way to recharge it.
if the controler draws 550 amps and you could use a gas generator to put back just 500 amps would that somewhat make it run off its own power it creates?
i dont know if there is more physics involved in the making of it but was curious to wonder if you got one of them diesel generators to put out 550 amps if you would be running off its own power?
this who thing sounds confusing... i keep reading it over and over...

cliffnotes of it is as said if it takes 120v 550amps to run and you could figure a way to put 550 amps back into the batterys would it ever die? or very slowly?
i hope someone understands this lol

 

[birdmanslopy]

i anwsered my problem, im trying to think of creative ideas to extend range that are very compact and dont take much to do. the generator was a cover up

jk my idea was something that according to the patent office nascar owns i found out sadly yesterday,
nascar runs a pulley off there yoke on the rear end to spin blowers to cool brakes down and whatnot, well my thought was the same idea but running 2 alternators that put 200amps out each, the warp9 motor uses max 550amp under full throttle, i found out that the motor backed off of course would drop amps.
so if 400 amps were being put into 10 12v batterys to control the motor the average person i seen running Straight batterys ran up to 60 miles maybe 70, if you could be putting in a consistant 400amp back into the system because the alternators put out max ampreage at under 1500 rpm and not under full power you should almost be able to use the power if not cut the drain half or more extending range and being able to drive at night without a problem for small distances.

creative thinking.. maybe someones allready though of that maybe they havent, but the patent office said that nascar owns that patent of a rear driven alternator system/ accesorie bracket.

back to the drawing boards.

but my next thought was possibly wind generator rated at 1kwh to slightly sit over the top of my trucks roof or maybe even the front of that sob like its a prop on a plane, if your always moving your making electricity back into the batterys no matter how fast you go. ive seen 10mph winds generate 400 watts on those things, imagine 45 50 mph your input would be insane id imagine.

 

[cumminsrover]

LogiSystems Controller 120 Volt 550 Amps controler

got a question i feel stupid asking, but if you ran say 12 12v batterys for that controller to function properly and had a way to recharge it.
if the controler draws 550 amps and you could use a gas generator to put back just 500 amps would that somewhat make it run off its own power it creates?
i dont know if there is more physics involved in the making of it but was curious to wonder if you got one of them diesel generators to put out 550 amps if you would be running off its own power?
this who thing sounds confusing... i keep reading it over and over...

cliffnotes of it is as said if it takes 120v 550amps to run and you could figure a way to put 550 amps back into the batterys would it ever die? or very slowly?
i hope someone understands this lol

Well, if you look at the controller specs, you can have 550 Amps for 2 minutes, 400 Amps for 5 minutes, 275 Amps for one hour - SO you are probably rated at 175-200 Amps continuous.... Then you have to add whatever accessories you need, and we'll go a bit overkill and say 17 Amps at 120 V (lights, pumps, fans, stereo, etc).

This adds up to about 32 horsepower continuous, and what is actually required at any given moment will vary. If we rough guess that you will spend an equal watt-hour consumption above and below that number we can size the genset. If you had a genset that fed a bit more than that, or 25KW (~210A @ 120V), you'd have range until you ran out of fuel.

This is along the lines of what Machman is thinking of. SO if he used a 5.5KW genset, then the range would be extended by some factor based upon battery storage capacity and usage requirements.

For example, if you had a 100KW-Hour battery, a 20KW usage requirement, and a 5.5KW generator...
You would have a 5 hour duration on battery alone, and a 7 hour duration on battery plus generator, and then you would have to wait just over 18 hours to recharge - this is why I am saying that you would want a bigger generator than that for a full size road vehicle.

 

[cumminsrover]

i anwsered my problem, im trying to think of creative ideas to extend range that are very compact and dont take much to do. the generator was a cover up

jk my idea was something that according to the patent office nascar owns i found out sadly yesterday,
nascar runs a pulley off there yoke on the rear end to spin blowers to cool brakes down and whatnot, well my thought was the same idea but running 2 alternators that put 200amps out each, the warp9 motor uses max 550amp under full throttle, i found out that the motor backed off of course would drop amps.
so if 400 amps were being put into 10 12v batterys to control the motor the average person i seen running Straight batterys ran up to 60 miles maybe 70, if you could be putting in a consistant 400amp back into the system because the alternators put out max ampreage at under 1500 rpm and not under full power you should almost be able to use the power if not cut the drain half or more extending range and being able to drive at night without a problem for small distances.

creative thinking.. maybe someones allready though of that maybe they havent, but the patent office said that nascar owns that patent of a rear driven alternator system/ accesorie bracket.

back to the drawing boards.

but my next thought was possibly wind generator rated at 1kwh to slightly sit over the top of my trucks roof or maybe even the front of that sob like its a prop on a plane, if your always moving your making electricity back into the batterys no matter how fast you go. ive seen 10mph winds generate 400 watts on those things, imagine 45 50 mph your input would be insane id imagine.

I realize you are just having fun here, but I'd like to keep this thread a useful discussion please (Unless you state otherwise Randy, you started this thing )

 

[birdmanslopy]

I realize you are just having fun here, but I'd like to keep this thread a useful discussion please (Unless you state otherwise Randy, you started this thing )

im being dead serious.... i really am.... the wind generator was just theory... it might look stupid but it would work. whats having fun?
people run 70 miles on straight batterys... nascar owns the patent for a rear mounted accesorie system that runs of the yoke...

 

[birdmanslopy]

Well, if you look at the controller specs, you can have 550 Amps for 2 minutes, 400 Amps for 5 minutes, 275 Amps for one hour - SO you are probably rated at 175-200 Amps continuous.... Then you have to add whatever accessories you need, and we'll go a bit overkill and say 17 Amps at 120 V (lights, pumps, fans, stereo, etc).

This adds up to about 32 horsepower continuous, and what is actually required at any given moment will vary. If we rough guess that you will spend an equal watt-hour consumption above and below that number we can size the genset. If you had a genset that fed a bit more than that, or 25KW (~210A @ 120V), you'd have range until you ran out of fuel.

This is along the lines of what Machman is thinking of. SO if he used a 5.5KW genset, then the range would be extended by some factor based upon battery storage capacity and usage requirements.

For example, if you had a 100KW-Hour battery, a 20KW usage requirement, and a 5.5KW generator...
You would have a 5 hour duration on battery alone, and a 7 hour duration on battery plus generator, and then you would have to wait just over 18 hours to recharge - this is why I am saying that you would want a bigger generator than that for a full size road vehicle.

ok well what if im trying to run that warp9 motor on that controller and im adding 400 amps off an alternator back to the 12 12v batterys. what would you say guessing how much more longer it would last? or would that even be adding any power in it at all to make a difference? the whole point of the question was if i was adding 400amps continious while the vehicle was running would i be recharging also?
i understand when you pull a load on a alternator it tends to have drag also so that would want to slow the vehicle down.
i really dont want to have a generator, i want to think of something creatively not relying on anything combustive at all.

 

[Pantherman]

ok well what if im trying to run that warp9 motor on that controller and im adding 400 amps off an alternator back to the 12 12v batterys. what would you say guessing how much more longer it would last? or would that even be adding any power in it at all to make a difference? the whole point of the question was if i was adding 400amps continious while the vehicle was running would i be recharging also?
i understand when you pull a load on a alternator it tends to have drag also so that would want to slow the vehicle down.
i really dont want to have a generator, i want to think of something creatively not relying on anything combustive at all.

It has been my experience that you can't feed the total amperage rating back into a battery to recharge it, you'll blow it up. Say you have 10 batteries that put out a total of 400 Amps, that's a total of 40 Amps per battery. Now, you're not supposed to be charging at more than 10% of the battery's total output, so that that would be 4AMPS per battery on recharge. So you could only feed a total of 40 AMPS back to those 10 batteries, dividing it up into 4AMPS per battery.

Pantherman