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Here is my story... and while this was a 6bt.. it is applicable to the 4bt... and since i have access here: Moderators please move it if need be: There I was going from Minnesota to Washington state. and the old 350K mile12 V was purring along... I only drove it because the other one with 250K, took a front diff right before the trip... and It had leaked oil a lot.. so I put some Lucas Oil Oil Stop leak during the oil change.. before I left for minnesota. and while it was taking some oil... I got in Montana and it was over 90 degrees and i threw in another QT of Lucas... suddenly it stopped... so i drove it for over another 1200 Miles and it hadn't taken a 1/2 a qt... but as i headed back to Washington i noticed a leak when i filed up in ND on the way back... I was about 80 Miles from Glendive.. my 1st planned stop on the 3 day trip ( 600 miles a day).. and so i have another QT of Lucas so i put it in and as i neared Glendive i saw the Oil Pressure gauge start dropping.. and as I literally turned the corner to my motel... the oil press. dropped precipitously .. when the rpms dropped the oil pressure disappeared.. so with the RPMs up a bit.. i coasted to the motel parking lot... and shut it down.. The oil just touched the dip stick and there was an oil spray pattern from the vent tube.. It took near 2 gallons to fill... but i needed to figure out what happened... and after calling the best mechanic I knew and not getting an answer i hit the internet... and found an article on the Cummins forums ( thanks Guys i love this place) on a blocked breather causing oil loss... and being it was pouring out of the Breather tube... I settled on a plan... i would install a Positive Crankcase Ventilation system... The next Morning... I drove to the local part store and picked up 2 PCV valves.. I GM and 1 dodge.. and 2 grommets.. then i found a step drill big enough to put the grommets in the valve covers.. and i made the mistake when i eyeballed it.. so 1 is from the top ( which I should have done for both.. but one was from the side... and a Barb Tee.. and some 3/8 vacuum line... and the one other necessity a old style Valve cover breather i could install in the oil Fill tube.. It took longer to find the parts then to build the system.. and now #1 and # 3 ( the Valve covers I was able to route out of)... and 1 hole on the air cleaner side in the filter box.. with a 3/8 barb fitting I was able to put a romex nut on ... Using a couple of Zip Ties and a piece of wire... I put the Breather on the oil fill.. I held it in place with the hood and some packing foam from the garbage... and.. then a bung plug with a hose clamp to stopper the oil breather tube... and i tested it on the road back.... ( now over 1500 miles) and the 1st thing was My fuel economy which had been a bleak 15-16 MPG... went to 20+ MPG.. and has stayed there... WOW.. It never had gotten near that the time i owned it ... removing the back pressure with the PCV system appearntly give a boost in fuel economy.. I'll try to attach a pic.. if i can...
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In theory you shouldn't have that much back pressure in the engine but things do happen. Cummins has had numerous changes in crankcase venting over the years. An older engine will likely have more blow by and thus create more problems. Your fix was simple. There are positive crankcase vents for the B series engines. They are are bit more exotic than your fix. This actually showed up on industrial 4bt engines in Case equipment and has migrated into road vehicles. The Cummins system replaces 2 valve covers with a special vented one. It has a special design trap on top to prevent oil from being dumped into the air cleaner. Of course you don't have to vent them into the air cleaner but that is an option. Guys with 6bts usually install 2 of these units which cover valve covers #2-#5. Below is a photo of a 6bt with 2 sets installed. These kits run anywhere from $169 to near $400 per set. Some sellers charge more. LOL. Pure Diesel Power sells them for the low price. Valve cover gaskets and bolt are optional but show in the photo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
In theory you shouldn't have that much back pressure in the engine but things do happen. Cummins has had numerous changes in crankcase venting over the years. An older engine will likely have more blow by and thus create more problems. Your fix was simple. There are positive crankcase vents for the B series engines. They are are bit more exotic than your fix. This actually showed up on industrial 4bt engines in Case equipment and has migrated into road vehicles. The Cummins system replaces 2 valve covers with a special vented one. It has a special design trap on top to prevent oil from being dumped into the air cleaner. Of course you don't have to vent them into the air cleaner but that is an option. Guys with 6bts usually install 2 of these units which cover valve covers #2-#5. Below is a photo of a 6bt with 2 sets installed. These kits run anywhere from $169 to near $400 per set. Some sellers charge more. LOL. Pure Diesel Power sells them for the low price. Valve cover gaskets and bolt are optional but show in the photo.
I saw the Kit.. but the nearest one was 200 miles away.. I tried the Case tractor dealers as I heard they had vented valve covers too... but it was saturday and there was no answer. I also read that when they get higher in mileage that some guys do put in 2 breather tubes... I had a diesel shop litterally a block away look at it .. the guy said there was minimal blow-by... this was confirmed when I met a guy who is a cummins mechanic and has his own shop.. when i asked at tractor Supply: " who is te best Cummins man around?".. and the checkout gal said that person's husband... and when i asked the nice lady she called her husband.. and he wanted to see what i had done.. so he drove to meet me and spent 5 minutes checking it out... he liked the system and said it should give more than adequate ventilization... and he said he didn't see much blowby and that I didn't have a hole in a piston as that would nearly always push the dip stick out significantly... I'm Liable to put the same system on my son's 12 Valve and see if it increases his mileage..
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
In theory you shouldn't have that much back pressure in the engine but things do happen. Cummins has had numerous changes in crankcase venting over the years. An older engine will likely have more blow by and thus create more problems. Your fix was simple. There are positive crankcase vents for the B series engines. They are are bit more exotic than your fix. This actually showed up on industrial 4bt engines in Case equipment and has migrated into road vehicles. The Cummins system replaces 2 valve covers with a special vented one. It has a special design trap on top to prevent oil from being dumped into the air cleaner. Of course you don't have to vent them into the air cleaner but that is an option. Guys with 6bts usually install 2 of these units which cover valve covers #2-#5. Below is a photo of a 6bt with 2 sets installed. These kits run anywhere from $169 to near $400 per set. Some sellers charge more. LOL. Pure Diesel Power sells them for the low price. Valve cover gaskets and bolt are optional but show in the photo.
The venting into the filter box discussion was had with my mechanic friend.. to go on the Turbo side of the filter box was discussed as it would increase the vacuum on the PCV valves , but was decided that it might be too much suction and suck oil.. so I put the vaccum on the filter side right under the inlet for the turba was a natueal spot.. the Filter Box isn't filling up with oil.. so it must have been a good decision..
 

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In theory you shouldn't have that much back pressure in the engine but things do happen. Cummins has had numerous changes in crankcase venting over the years. An older engine will likely have more blow by and thus create more problems. Your fix was simple. There are positive crankcase vents for the B series engines. They are are bit more exotic than your fix. This actually showed up on industrial 4bt engines in Case equipment and has migrated into road vehicles. The Cummins system replaces 2 valve covers with a special vented one. It has a special design trap on top to prevent oil from being dumped into the air cleaner. Of course you don't have to vent them into the air cleaner but that is an option. Guys with 6bts usually install 2 of these units which cover valve covers #2-#5. Below is a photo of a 6bt with 2 sets installed. These kits run anywhere from $169 to near $400 per set. Some sellers charge more. LOL. Pure Diesel Power sells them for the low price. Valve cover gaskets and bolt are optional but show in the photo.
That's interesting. Do you know if the vent valve is available without the cast covers? I've been going to make a better vent system for my Isuzu for a while and that head could work nicely.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
That's interesting. Do you know if the vent valve is available without the cast covers? I've been going to make a better vent system for my Isuzu for a while and that head could work nicely.
there are many older vehicles with vent thru the valve cover using a grommet for many years... dodge did it with a hose to the air cleaner.. like most of them.. here is one example: Mopar Performance P4120446 Chrome Breather Cap Vent Tube ...
 

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there are many older vehicles with vent thru the valve cover using a grommet for many years... dodge did it with a hose to the air cleaner.. like most of them.. here is one example: Mopar Performance P4120446 Chrome Breather Cap Vent Tube ...
Indeed, but this Cummins one looks to have way more flow. The extra compression and always on boost nature of diesels means a lot more blowby. Looks like a 3/4" hose.

@char1355 do you know if this p/n is good? 2852531 for the breather? Found it here on DTR: The pressure's been building and I've got to vent . . .. - Dodge Diesel - Diesel Truck Resource Forums
 

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Dougal, here are the Cummins part numbers for this thing. Must remember that is was also used in Case equipment and Iveco which have some different part numbers. This is all the parts for the complete assembly. Must remember that the plastic cap is not the complete breather system. This thing is designed to trap oil and prevent it from being sucked into the turbo air cleaner. The air cleaner assembly used with this are also special. They trap any oil residue to prevent it from entering the turbo. Old PCV units on cars had a special filter that went between the valve and the engine air filter element which trapped oil vapor residue. They look like the one pictured below. Don't expect that plastic breather cap to be cheap. Sells for around $60 US. The Case/New Holland part number for that is 504069558 which you can find much cheaper than Cummins. Around $35 US.

2830784 is the dual aluminum valve cover
4899194 is the plastic breather cap (Old part number 2852531)
4899195 is the gasket seal between the cap and valve cover assembly (Old part number 2852028)
4899092 are the cap screws that attach the cap to the assembly 3 required(Old part number 3901865,)
4895214 are the valve cover bolts 2 required ( Old number 3907049)
3935449 valve cover bolt seals 2 required
3930906 valve cover gasket 2 required
 

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Dougal, here are the Cummins part numbers for this thing. Must remember that is was also used in Case equipment and Iveco which have some different part numbers. This is all the parts for the complete assembly. Must remember that the plastic cap is not the complete breather system. This thing is designed to trap oil and prevent it from being sucked into the turbo air cleaner. The air cleaner assembly used with this are also special. They trap any oil residue to prevent it from entering the turbo. Old PCV units on cars had a special filter that went between the valve and the engine air filter element which trapped oil vapor residue. They look like the one pictured below. Don't expect that plastic breather cap to be cheap. Sells for around $60 US. The Case/New Holland part number for that is 504069558 which you can find much cheaper than Cummins. Around $35 US.

2830784 is the dual aluminum valve cover
4899194 is the plastic breather cap (Old part number 2852531)
4899195 is the gasket seal between the cap and valve cover assembly (Old part number 2852028)
4899092 are the cap screws that attach the cap to the assembly 3 required(Old part number 3901865,)
4895214 are the valve cover bolts 2 required ( Old number 3907049)
3935449 valve cover bolt seals 2 required
3930906 valve cover gasket 2 required
Perfect, thanks. I know more Case-New-Holland dealers than Cummins dealers so I'll give them a shot.

I've been using a Provent for the last decade, it was garbage, I modified it and reversed the flow which made it work well but the layout is all wrong with ports pointing in the wrong directions so it eats more room than it should.
I need to make a new catch can separator and this will be the ideal head for it. I should be able to use just the cap and o-ring and fabricate the rest.
 

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Dougal, here is a listing showing all the applications where the dual valve cover was used. Might be useful in checking with a dealer. VALVE COVER 2830784 - New.Holland | AVSpare.com Not sure that part was ever used on an actual Cummins application but it was used on a lot of Case farm and industrial equipment. Below are some drawings of the 3 cylinder engine in a Case 435 skid steer that had these parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Dougal, here is a listing showing all the applications where the dual valve cover was used. Might be useful in checking with a dealer. VALVE COVER 2830784 - New.Holland | AVSpare.com Not sure that part was ever used on an actual Cummins application but it was used on a lot of Case farm and industrial equipment. Below are some drawings of the 3 cylinder engine in a Case 435 skid steer that had these parts.
Used for as Low as $68.00 Part # 2830784 For Sale At TractorHouse.com.
 

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I fail to understand how any change to crankcase ventilation could make any difference in fuel economy, let alone the 4-5+ MPG gain that is claimed by Someoldguy in his original post.

The crankcase of any multi-cylinder even-fire engine is a constant volume system, so regardless of the static pressure in the crankcase there is no additional pumping loss since any volume being decreased by a descending piston is offset by the increasing volume of its ascending neighbors. The forces are all balanced as a result. There is a small amount of pumping loss due to the gases in the crankcase being pushed around, but its very small and exists in all engines.

In addition to that, the stock crankcase ventilation system in the tappet cover is perfectly adequate for keeping the crankcase pressure low, provided the engine doesn't have a tremendous amount of blowby from extreme wear, broken rings, etc. Its main complaint is that it carries out a lot of oil vapor, but that is mainly due to location rather than design. The crankcase vents that replace a pair of valve covers eliminate oil carryover due to being at the top of the engine, away from the mist generated by the rotating assembly and the oil raining back down from the rocker boxes. They make maximum use of gravitational separation of oil droplets from the blowby gases.

There is a reason PCV is used on gasoline engines and not on diesel engines. Its due to the fundamentally different cycles of operation, how fuel is introduced, and the different fuels used. In a diesel engine, only air is drawn into the cylinder on the intake stroke. During compression, leakage past the rings consists entirely of air. The fuel is injected into the re-entrant bowl, and if working properly (proper design of injector and piston combo, and proper timing) very little fuel should contact the cylinder walls or flow into the piston-cylinder clearance and make it past the rings into the crankcase. During the power stroke, the blowby past the rings consists of CO2, water vapor, and a (under proper operation) very small amount of partially burned and unburned hydrocarbons and particulate matter. In other words, the blowby gases during the power stroke are more or less identical to the gases expelled during the exhaust stroke.

The spark ignition cycle engine is a different matter. In this case, a homogeneous mixture of air and vaporized fuel is drawn into the cylinder during the intake stroke. During compression, as well as the period after ignition before the flame front reaches the cylinder walls, small amounts of this mixture of air and unburned fuel is blown past the rings. Once combustion has completed, any blowby gases after that are essentially exhaust gases. The problem is the unburned fuel that escapes past the rings prior to the completion of the combustion event. The unburned fuel causes oil dilution, and if vented to the atmosphere also causes photochemical smog. In the old days, crankcase ventilation of spark engines was done using a road draft tube. The tube was arranged so airflow past the end of it would create a low pressure area. This helped draw the fuel vapors from the crankcase. If a breather was added, a draft through the crankcase would occur, just like a PCV system. The PCV system was created in response to emissions control laws. Research showed that a significant percentage of smog was due to the unburned fuel drawn from the crankcase. The PCV system draws the blowby back into the combustion chambers to burn the unburned vapor. Since diesel engines dont normally have significant amounts of unburned fuel escape past the rings, such a system isnt necessary.

Even modern diesels that route blowby gases into the turbo inlet arent "PCV" systems in the strict sense, since they dont draft fresh air through the crankcase. Because a diesel lacks manifold vacuum, the only suction is due to the small amount of pressure drop created by the air filter. A breather could be added, and if it was less restrictive than the air filter AND the amount of draft created is more than the blowby generated, then a "PCV" system could be created. However, such a system would be of dubious value.

Keep in mind that PCV valves for spark engins are deliberately restrictive. If they weren't, the effect would be a large vacuum leak. They also incorporate a check valve to prevent an intake flashback from going into the crankcase, which would be A Bad Thing™. In a diesel engine, such a valve is not only unnecessary, it is counterproductive. You want as much flow as possible, not a restriction. And because diesels dont have highly combustible vapors in the crankcase, the ventilation doesn't go directly into the intake manifold, and they arent susceptible to the same intake flashbacks as spark engines, the check valve feature of the PCV valve is unnecessary as well.

Because of the restriction of the PCV valves, your breather is actually an additional vent, not an inlet for air. This is probably a good thing, because the filters in those small breathers arent typically very good and would allow more dust into the crankcase. One nice thing about the standard diesel engine crankcase ventilation system is that the vent(s) are exit-only due to the positive pressure created by the blowby. Indeed, the entire crankcase is under positive pressure, even if the amount is small on a healthy engine. Thus, the sole inlet of potential contaminants into the engine is the intake tract. If a quality filter is used and the system has no pre-turbo air leaks, the engine interior will remain virtually contaminant free even if something like the oil filler cap or dipstick has a faulty seal.

Anyway, that's all I got. If someone can explain how the OP's setup can actually function as a true PCV system, I'd like to hear it. I'd really like to hear an explanation of how his setup can cause a decrease in fuel consumption of 33% or more. I see no physical way that any change in fuel consumption, positive or negative, could happen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I fail to understand how any change to crankcase ventilation could make any difference in fuel economy, let alone the 4-5+ MPG gain that is claimed by Someoldguy in his original post.

The crankcase of any multi-cylinder even-fire engine is a constant volume system, so regardless of the static pressure in the crankcase there is no additional pumping loss since any volume being decreased by a descending piston is offset by the increasing volume of its ascending neighbors. The forces are all balanced as a result. There is a small amount of pumping loss due to the gases in the crankcase being pushed around, but its very small and exists in all engines.

In addition to that, the stock crankcase ventilation system in the tappet cover is perfectly adequate for keeping the crankcase pressure low, provided the engine doesn't have a tremendous amount of blowby from extreme wear, broken rings, etc. Its main complaint is that it carries out a lot of oil vapor, but that is mainly due to location rather than design. The crankcase vents that replace a pair of valve covers eliminate oil carryover due to being at the top of the engine, away from the mist generated by the rotating assembly and the oil raining back down from the rocker boxes. They make maximum use of gravitational separation of oil droplets from the blowby gases.

There is a reason PCV is used on gasoline engines and not on diesel engines. Its due to the fundamentally different cycles of operation, how fuel is introduced, and the different fuels used. In a diesel engine, only air is drawn into the cylinder on the intake stroke. During compression, leakage past the rings consists entirely of air. The fuel is injected into the re-entrant bowl, and if working properly (proper design of injector and piston combo, and proper timing) very little fuel should contact the cylinder walls or flow into the piston-cylinder clearance and make it past the rings into the crankcase. During the power stroke, the blowby past the rings consists of CO2, water vapor, and a (under proper operation) very small amount of partially burned and unburned hydrocarbons and particulate matter. In other words, the blowby gases during the power stroke are more or less identical to the gases expelled during the exhaust stroke.

The spark ignition cycle engine is a different matter. In this case, a homogeneous mixture of air and vaporized fuel is drawn into the cylinder during the intake stroke. During compression, as well as the period after ignition before the flame front reaches the cylinder walls, small amounts of this mixture of air and unburned fuel is blown past the rings. Once combustion has completed, any blowby gases after that are essentially exhaust gases. The problem is the unburned fuel that escapes past the rings prior to the completion of the combustion event. The unburned fuel causes oil dilution, and if vented to the atmosphere also causes photochemical smog. In the old days, crankcase ventilation of spark engines was done using a road draft tube. The tube was arranged so airflow past the end of it would create a low pressure area. This helped draw the fuel vapors from the crankcase. If a breather was added, a draft through the crankcase would occur, just like a PCV system. The PCV system was created in response to emissions control laws. Research showed that a significant percentage of smog was due to the unburned fuel drawn from the crankcase. The PCV system draws the blowby back into the combustion chambers to burn the unburned vapor. Since diesel engines dont normally have significant amounts of unburned fuel escape past the rings, such a system isnt necessary.

Even modern diesels that route blowby gases into the turbo inlet arent "PCV" systems in the strict sense, since they dont draft fresh air through the crankcase. Because a diesel lacks manifold vacuum, the only suction is due to the small amount of pressure drop created by the air filter. A breather could be added, and if it was less restrictive than the air filter AND the amount of draft created is more than the blowby generated, then a "PCV" system could be created. However, such a system would be of dubious value.

Keep in mind that PCV valves for spark engins are deliberately restrictive. If they weren't, the effect would be a large vacuum leak. They also incorporate a check valve to prevent an intake flashback from going into the crankcase, which would be A Bad Thing™. In a diesel engine, such a valve is not only unnecessary, it is counterproductive. You want as much flow as possible, not a restriction. And because diesels dont have highly combustible vapors in the crankcase, the ventilation doesn't go directly into the intake manifold, and they arent susceptible to the same intake flashbacks as spark engines, the check valve feature of the PCV valve is unnecessary as well.

Because of the restriction of the PCV valves, your breather is actually an additional vent, not an inlet for air. This is probably a good thing, because the filters in those small breathers arent typically very good and would allow more dust into the crankcase. One nice thing about the standard diesel engine crankcase ventilation system is that the vent(s) are exit-only due to the positive pressure created by the blowby. Indeed, the entire crankcase is under positive pressure, even if the amount is small on a healthy engine. Thus, the sole inlet of potential contaminants into the engine is the intake tract. If a quality filter is used and the system has no pre-turbo air leaks, the engine interior will remain virtually contaminant free even if something like the oil filler cap or dipstick has a faulty seal.

Anyway, that's all I got. If someone can explain how the OP's setup can actually function as a true PCV system, I'd like to hear it. I'd really like to hear an explanation of how his setup can cause a decrease in fuel consumption of 33% or more. I see no physical way that any change in fuel consumption, positive or negative, could happen.
WOW where to start. I log ever Mile and every fill. I know what the change in Mileage was. I have records. 2 The plugged venting system doesn't allow blow by to be expelled with each piston stroke ; which is why it BLEW the oil out meaning it was pressuring the crankcase with EVERY stroke so increased resistance. 3: your theory of equal displacement is only for engines without blowby or a crank case leak where by each stroke acts as an air compressor with no out let. 4: It is a PCV system. I routed the outlet from the PCV Valves to the air intake box right under the turbo line which provides Positive Crankcase Ventilization. I compensated for the blocked breather with a Valve Cover Filter which I installed in the Oil Fill spout. If it didn't have Positive Crank Case Ventilization one would expect the air cleaner box to be filling with oil because it would be sucking the oil rather than the air coming thru the breather filter I installed. It has used about 1 QT of oil in 3,000 miles since the emergency repair. and my dinking around mileage is 18+ which is better than the 14+ it was getting before the trip.. Apology accepted
 

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WOW where to start. I log ever Mile and every fill. I know what the change in Mileage was. I have records. 2 The plugged venting system doesn't allow blow by to be expelled with each piston stroke ; which is why it BLEW the oil out meaning it was pressuring the crankcase with EVERY stroke so increased resistance. 3: your theory of equal displacement is only for engines without blowby or a crank case leak where by each stroke acts as an air compressor with no out let. 4: It is a PCV system. I routed the outlet from the PCV Valves to the air intake box right under the turbo line which provides Positive Crankcase Ventilization. I compensated for the blocked breather with a Valve Cover Filter which I installed in the Oil Fill spout. If it didn't have Positive Crank Case Ventilization one would expect the air cleaner box to be filling with oil because it would be sucking the oil rather than the air coming thru the breather filter I installed. It has used about 1 QT of oil in 3,000 miles since the emergency repair. and my dinking around mileage is 18+ which is better than the 14+ it was getting before the trip.. Apology accepted
I would have been content to debate this with you had you not decided to end your post with snark. So, instead, I will be short and to the point: You're wrong. Furthermore, you claimed 15-16mpg before the "fix" and 20+ after the "fix" in your first post. Now you are claiming 14+ before the trip and 18+ after the fix. When a person changes their story, and gives vague details, its a tell that they're full of :poop:

Have a nice day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I would have been content to debate this with you had you not decided to end your post with snark. So, instead, I will be short and to the point: You're wrong. Furthermore, you claimed 15-16mpg before the "fix" and 20+ after the "fix" in your first post. Now you are claiming 14+ before the trip and 18+ after the fix. When a person changes their story, and gives vague details, its a tell that they're full of :poop:

Have a nice day.
Snark: you called me a liar.. I have records..every gallon... every mile.. and the 15-6 was while on the highway on the trip.. not just regular driving which was 14+.. .. you should have appologized for your calling me a liar..
 

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I didn't call you a liar. I said you're full of :poop:.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I didn't call you a liar. I said you're full of :poop:.
No you called me a liar... I drove from the west coast to Minnesota.. a trip of about 1800 miles... fuel economy 15-16 MPG... every mile logged, every gallon logged.. while at minnesota 1 drove over 1500 miles of dinking around miles average fuel economy 14+... on the trip back to the west coast.. the 1st 600 miles.. to Glendive MT.. 3 fills....15+ mpg.. the oil dump and repair was at glendive... the next 1200 miles 20+ MPG... the only difference was the change to the PCV system.... like I said.. you owe me an appology..
 
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