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Engine Mount Design Collaboration.

9550 Views 128 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  MaxPF, 
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Hi Guys

I know engine mounts are always a hot topic. Which ones work best, which ones fit best, which ones you can actually source.
I have reached out to Barry Controls: https://novibration.com/ and they're keen to design us a standard fitment to help out with vibration isolation and make all this easy.

But we need some info:
Weights. That should be easy.
Standard mounting configurations that work for most swaps. Particularly fore/aft location on the engine.
Space constraints inside frame rails etc.

I'm also going to forward some Isuzu 4BD1T info that can help too.
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MaxPF
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This pump?








That pump is an Eaton Vickers V10-NF. It is an SAE A mount pump with an 11 spline male input shaft. There are many different pumps available that all mount to an SAE A two-bolt flange and have 11 spline inputs. Note that 9 spline shafts are also available, but 11 spline seems to be more common for PS use. The "NF" in the basic part type indicates that it has an internal pressure regulator valve. Regular V10's for general hydraulic applications can have a pressure control valve or a flow control valve, or no valve at all. The pressure and flow control versions have a separate output for the fluid that the valve bypasses, whereas the NF returns the excess fluid to the pump inlet internally. The pumps without any pressure or flow valves must use an external regulator. The NF pumps are intended specifically for PS use. The pump on my engine puts out something like 6GPM and 2800psi max.

Here's an example of a TRW pump for a Freightshaker application. Its rated for 4.23gpm and 2683psi:



The component that allows the use of an SAE A mount pump is a gear drive SAE A PTO adapter like this one:




If you look around you may be able to find that SAE A adapter on the used market. Im not sure how long the bearings last. Mine came with the engine, and I have no idea how many miles/hours are on it. There is an oil hole between the gear and mounting shoulder that allows splash/drip oil into the bearings for lubrication, so it doesn't rely on grease for lubrication.

The Vickers V10-NF is a very tough, durable, all-cast-iron pump. Its also probably the most expensive. The disposable aluminum pumps like that TRW unit and many others are probably Chinese, which would account for their lower price. Once again, if you can find a used Vickers thats in good shape, it should give very long life. They are easy to re-seal if they leak, and they are completely rebuildable. Theres only a few wear items in the pump, all of which are replaceable. Again, I have no idea of the history on mine, but it makes no noise and works VERY well! I run a spin-on hydraulic filter in the low pressure return circuit (highly recommended) and use only high quality, high vicosity index, anti-wear hydraulic fluids.
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MaxPF said:
This pump?








That pump is an Eaton Vickers V10-NF. It is an SAE A mount pump with an 11 spline male input shaft. There are many different pumps available that all mount to an SAE A two-bolt flange and have 11 spline inputs. Note that 9 spline shafts are also available, but 11 spline seems to be more common for PS use. The "NF" in the basic part type indicates that it has an internal pressure regulator valve. Regular V10's for general hydraulic applications can have a pressure control valve or a flow control valve, or no valve at all. The pressure and flow control versions have a separate output for the fluid that the valve bypasses, whereas the NF returns the excess fluid to the pump inlet internally. The pumps without any pressure or flow valves must use an external regulator. The NF pumps are intended specifically for PS use. The pump on my engine puts out something like 6GPM and 2800psi max.

Here's an example of a TRW pump for a Freightshaker application. Its rated for 4.23gpm and 2683psi:



The component that allows the use of an SAE A mount pump is a gear drive SAE A PTO adapter like this one:




If you look around you may be able to find that SAE A adapter on the used market. Im not sure how long the bearings last. Mine came with the engine, and I have no idea how many miles/hours are on it. There is an oil hole between the gear and mounting shoulder that allows splash/drip oil into the bearings for lubrication, so it doesn't rely on grease for lubrication.

The Vickers V10-NF is a very tough, durable, all-cast-iron pump. Its also probably the most expensive. The disposable aluminum pumps like that TRW unit and many others are probably Chinese, which would account for their lower price. Once again, if you can find a used Vickers thats in good shape, it should give very long life. They are easy to re-seal if they leak, and they are completely rebuildable. Theres only a few wear items in the pump, all of which are replaceable. Again, I have no idea of the history on mine, but it makes no noise and works VERY well! I run a spin-on hydraulic filter in the low pressure return circuit (highly recommended) and use only high quality, high vicosity index, anti-wear hydraulic fluids.
Click to expand...
thanks for the info... I know they make some pumps that bolt right in to the same hole as the adapter above.. .. they are everywhere... the gear that goes on them... I cannot find .. thank
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MaxPF
Im not positive, but I think the mount that is directly on the timing housing is SAE B. If so, then you are correct: an SAE B pattern pump would bolt right up. However, as you mentioned, a mating gear would be needed. Also, the pump in question would need to be rated to take radial load and axial (thrust) on its input shaft. In the SAE A setup I have, the drive adapter handles all the radial and thrust loads generated by the helical drive gear. Since the pump itself is balanced (that is, it pumps off opposite sides of the rotor equally), the pumps shaft bearings dont have to handle any appreciable load. Thats not to say that the V10 pump cannot handle such shaft loads. I honestly don't know. But it does mean that an inexpensive pump with simple journal bearings could be used with the SAE A load adapter, whereas a pump designed to have a gear mounted directly to the input shaft would both need a much beefier shaft as well as suitable bearings supporting it. Probably a decent size single row or double row ball bearing. Those are all things to keep in mind.

A more basic problem may be finding a direct mount pump that is SMALL enough for PS use. An SAE B mount pump with a 30mm or bigger input shaft is unlikely to be available in displacements small enough for a pickup truck. My pump is borderline too large as it is. I have to use a reservoir that holds over 1.5 quarts of fluid, and I have a PS cooler that was advertised and sold as a transmission cooler.
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Thanks for your reply.. the pump pressure should be arround 100 BAR or 1500 PSI with a flow rate of about 2gmp if I read correctly... Your idea of a larger tank and cooler is along my line of thinking.. but you can get flow restrictors and pressure restrictors.. and some pumps are adjustable.. But I couldn't find the gear number or the gear.. thanks again
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MaxPF
A Saginaw P series pump is normally regulated at 1200psi max pressure, and can flow 2.75 to 3gpm.
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What gear are you looking for? Most all the hydraulic type pumps require that adapter MaxPF showed in an earlier post. The Ford and Freightliner pumps are the only ones I've seen that have the correct gear mounted on them. O'Reilly's sells the rebuilt units under part 736-0111 $480.99 +$100.00 core. It shows a gear mounted on the pump but I won't swear that is comes with one. Diesel Tuff sells one that is properly adjusted to 1450 PSI for $359.99 + $49 shipping. It comes with the gear. One model of those is made by ZF in Germany. New ones from Ford are probably over $1000 and that doesn't include the gear. Some of these pumps are aluminum and some are cast iron. The remote reservoir carried a Ford part number F3HT-3531-AB.

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MaxPF
char1355 said:
What gear are you looking for? Most all the hydraulic type pumps require that adapter MaxPF showed in an earlier post. The Ford and Freightliner pumps are the only ones I've seen that have the correct gear mounted on them. O'Reilly's sells the rebuilt units under part 736-0111 $480.99 +$100.00 core. It shows a gear mounted on the pump but I won't swear that is comes with one. Diesel Tuff sells one that is properly adjusted to 1450 PSI for $359.99 + $49 shipping. It comes with the gear. One model of those is made by ZF in Germany. New ones from Ford are probably over $1000 and that doesn't include the gear. Some of these pumps are aluminum and some are cast iron. The remote reservoir carried a Ford part number F3HT-3531-AB.
Click to expand...
I forgot to mention that, besides the radial load that a directly-gear-driven pump must be able to support, the pump also has to support thrust loads caused by the helical gear.

I agree that probably 99% of the pumps used on these engines are SAE A mount, and require either the SAE A drive adapter like I have or a compressor with an SAE A drive mount on its opposite end.

Some of the aluminum pumps aren't too terribly expensive. However, being SAE A mount, they require the adapter. Ive only found one place that sells them new, and they are $800. The main problem with finding them elsewhere is that I don't have the Cummins part #, nor do I know exactly what they are called. That makes teh search process quite difficult.
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W.R.Buchanan said:
OK I'm a little late to this discussion, but I have some definite ideas about how to mount one of these engines.

First it kind of depends on how the vehicle will be used. If it is street only then mounts that support the engine and kind of limit its fore and aft and side to side movement, will probably work just fine.

However if the Vehicle is to be used off road in any challenging way then the mounts must not only support the weight of the engine but also positively capture its movement on all three axis'. Otherwise you will end up with holes in your radiator and general disappointment.

I learned a lot while building Early Rock Crawling Jeeps 95-03 ish. and they were evolving with every trip to a competition. The mounts on my Yellow Jeep broke on a mild trail in Moab and it took us 4 hours to recover it after only 5 minutes into the trail. About 200 yards!. That prompted me to design and build mounts using Poly Urethane Spring Bushings in the Tubular Mounts to positively locate the engine on all 3 axis'. No more problems with 12" holes in the radiator.

These mounts utilized the center mounting locations on the sides of he engine rather than the conventional mounts on the Front of Chevy 4's and 6's
These worked perfectly and there were no further failures. Even after rolling the Jeep 4 1/2 times the engine was still in place and running even though it was upside down. My right ear still rings constantly from that episode in 2003 !.
View attachment 133483

Moving forward to the DeScrambler I wanted the same basic concept but bigger to deal with the 750 lb Weight of the Cummins 4 BT.

With the 4 BT as an off road power plant I decided it was best to mount the engine on the sides of the block so that the weight of the engine was supported entirely by the mounts independent of any "Cantilever" effects induced by mounting them on the front of the engine and relying on the Transmission mounts to support the rear and divide the entire weight of the power train (1150 lbs total) thus @280 lbs on each mount. This would put undue stress on the joints between the Engine/Transmission/ Overdrive/Transfer Case each of which would encourage oil leakage at some point.

The engine is supported near the #3 cylinder on the drivers side and #2 cylinder on the passenger side by Polyurethane Step Bushings that are 3" in diameter made of 60 Durometer Poly.. I made a mold to pour the Poly around a steel bushing in the center of the bushing.

The right side mount was a little complicated due to having to work around the Turbo Drain and pick up the front mounting holes in the block. The right side is much simpler.

View attachment 133484 View attachment 133485 View attachment 133486

The rear of the Drive Train is supported by the Crossmember in between the Over Drive unit and the Transfer Case. So in the end the entire drive train is supported by 4 sets of the Poly Bushings, but the weight of the engine is mainly supported by the two engine mounts located on the sides of the engine and the Cross Member is taking the load of the trans and other piece parts. or about 400 lbs,.

Note: the Engine Mounts are bolted to the sides of the Frame Rails which incorporate bushings that go all the way thru the frame rail and are welded in place. In addition there is a "Shear Plate" on the top of the mounts that prevents the mounts from shearing off. So there is 4ea 1/2" G8 bolts holding the frame side of the mounts..

The only negative to this set up is that it does transmit vibration of the Engine to the frame very efficiently. Maybe some day I will go back and remake the step bushings from softer material. BUt for now looking at ways to lessen the vibration that the engine makes in the first place.
However the drive train is located very solidly in all 3 axis'. Period!

OK,,, that is what I did to mount my Engine /Drive Train. YMMV

Randy
Click to expand...

I'm in mount design mode and I noticed that you mounts offset from one side to the other the Driver side further back... the passenger side further forward..... does this put funky forces on your frame and transmission? Thanks
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D
I finally got my mounts sorted out. Back in 2019 when I made the last ones I had the distance to centre wrong for the left side mount. This caused the engine to attempt to sit crooked and load my mounts diagonally.

I was able to get the right dimensions off an Isuzu 4BG1T industrial drawing and modify the mount. Fitted it last week and for the first time in about 30 years this engine is sitting evenly on both front mounts.
I've yet to drive it, but stationary revving and startup-shutdown shows the engine moves about 10mm on it's mounts. It seems smoother than before.
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Mounting a 4bt in front saves a lot of room along the sides, however as others have said, only SAE # 2 or 3 are designed to hold the engine torque; automotive bellhousings, either automatic or manual, are not designed for those loads. On my 6bt I used stock Dodge mounts attached to tapered boxed side rails on ‘55 GMC truck. Don’t know about vibration levels yet.

Ed in CO
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cliffpoint
MaxPF said:
This pump?








That pump is an Eaton Vickers V10-NF. It is an SAE A mount pump with an 11 spline male input shaft. There are many different pumps available that all mount to an SAE A two-bolt flange and have 11 spline inputs. Note that 9 spline shafts are also available, but 11 spline seems to be more common for PS use. The "NF" in the basic part type indicates that it has an internal pressure regulator valve. Regular V10's for general hydraulic applications can have a pressure control valve or a flow control valve, or no valve at all. The pressure and flow control versions have a separate output for the fluid that the valve bypasses, whereas the NF returns the excess fluid to the pump inlet internally. The pumps without any pressure or flow valves must use an external regulator. The NF pumps are intended specifically for PS use. The pump on my engine puts out something like 6GPM and 2800psi max.

Here's an example of a TRW pump for a Freightshaker application. Its rated for 4.23gpm and 2683psi:



The component that allows the use of an SAE A mount pump is a gear drive SAE A PTO adapter like this one:




If you look around you may be able to find that SAE A adapter on the used market. Im not sure how long the bearings last. Mine came with the engine, and I have no idea how many miles/hours are on it. There is an oil hole between the gear and mounting shoulder that allows splash/drip oil into the bearings for lubrication, so it doesn't rely on grease for lubrication.

The Vickers V10-NF is a very tough, durable, all-cast-iron pump. Its also probably the most expensive. The disposable aluminum pumps like that TRW unit and many others are probably Chinese, which would account for their lower price. Once again, if you can find a used Vickers thats in good shape, it should give very long life. They are easy to re-seal if they leak, and they are completely rebuildable. Theres only a few wear items in the pump, all of which are replaceable. Again, I have no idea of the history on mine, but it makes no noise and works VERY well! I run a spin-on hydraulic filter in the low pressure return circuit (highly recommended) and use only high quality, high vicosity index, anti-wear hydraulic fluids.
Click to expand...
These adapters are similar to those used on the John Deere 4045. JD rate that at 50HP intermittent. I dont buy it, as I have taken one off after 2 years of regular duty, and the front gear train was TRASH ! The small pumps needed for hydroboost/power steering should have no ill effects.
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cliffpoint
MaxPF said:
Mine is very similar. I used off-the-shelf urethane leaf spring bushings. As I mentioned in the "Show Off Ur Motor Mounts" thread, these work well and provide adequate vibration absorption for a 6, but they would be far from optimal for a 4. A similar mount using the second gen Dodge mount inserts, as shown above in post #87 of this thread, would be much better. Even then, vibration absorption is likely to be marginal for a 4BT, unless you happen to have one with a balance shaft.






These are actually my second iteration of the leaf spring bushing mounts. The first version didn't allow as much slope on the turbo drain. With this version, the slope is still totally inadequate, which is forcing me to put a drain bung in the pan right below the pan rail. Eventually, I will swap to coil front suspension, and when I do so the stock Chevy frame-side motor mount brackets will go away. This will necessitate fabricating yet another set of motor mounts. When I do so, I will likely end up running aftermarket urethane bushings for the Dodge second gen motor mounts. I will still use tubing though!
Click to expand...
4BT, unless you happen to have one with a balance shaft.

Did you mean Crankshaft Balancer ? , as I am not aware that 4BT had dynamic balancing !
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cliffpoint said:
4BT, unless you happen to have one with a balance shaft.

Did you mean Crankshaft Balancer ? , as I am not aware that 4BT had dynamic balancing !
Click to expand...
There were some 4BT with counter-balancing assemblies in the oil-pan. Apparently the speed restrictions precluded them from automotive use so maybe industrial generation in sensitive installations!
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cliffpoint
Dougal said:
There were some 4BT with counter-balancing assemblies in the oil-pan. Apparently the speed restrictions precluded them from automotive use so maybe industrial generation in sensitive installations!
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Thanks for the info
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This thread was interesting. I’ll add my two cents. I didn’t really do a lot of thinking on my mounts. I went with the Chevy Lumina mounts because of a post on this forum. I made simple mounts that bolted to the frame.

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They are fluid filled and mounted level. (It seemed to me a V mount would not allow much movement.

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Im very happy with them after about 8000 miles.

On another note, the info in this thread about the power steering pump is very interesting. It probably wouldn’t be found in a search. It really should be moved to a power steering thread or at least referenced there somehow.
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Dreamin, does the mount on your passenger side sit above the Starter? I like the simplicity of them.
After about 16,000 miles on my mounts, I’ve decided it is time to revisit them. They are basically My version of the stepvan mounts with an Anchor 2710 isolator. While some have claimed that is this works great, for a “long time”, that hasn’t been the case for me. I think the main problem is with the quality of the isolators. They seem to work well for about six months and then develop a different level of hardness that turns the bed on my pickup into a giant speaker- not pleasant.
One thing I wonder about is locating the mounts nearer to the natural roll axis of the engine. My application has room for mounts at the center of the engine lengthwise and higher up than most mounts that I’ve seen. My thinking is that mounting these engines down low forces the top of the engine to do most of the squirming, whereas if we mounted up higher it would allow the engine to actually roll, top and bottom.
Another question I have is whether these engines create Any significant amount of Yaw- anotherwords trying to force the trans crossmember in a side- to side motion, which in my case the mount will not absorb any of, and with such a long frame, may be amplifying the problem?
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cliffpoint
char1355 said:
What gear are you looking for? Most all the hydraulic type pumps require that adapter MaxPF showed in an earlier post. The Ford and Freightliner pumps are the only ones I've seen that have the correct gear mounted on them. O'Reilly's sells the rebuilt units under part 736-0111 $480.99 +$100.00 core. It shows a gear mounted on the pump but I won't swear that is comes with one. Diesel Tuff sells one that is properly adjusted to 1450 PSI for $359.99 + $49 shipping. It comes with the gear. One model of those is made by ZF in Germany. New ones from Ford are probably over $1000 and that doesn't include the gear. Some of these pumps are aluminum and some are cast iron. The remote reservoir carried a Ford part number F3HT-3531-AB.
Click to expand...
I have seen the Ford parts used on a F600 with a Brazilian Ford 6 cylinder diesel.
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Levis said:
Dreamin, does the mount on your passenger side sit above the Starter? I like the simplicity of them.
After about 16,000 miles on my mounts, I’ve decided it is time to revisit them. They are basically My version of the stepvan mounts with an Anchor 2710 isolator. While some have claimed that is this works great, for a “long time”, that hasn’t been the case for me. I think the main problem is with the quality of the isolators. They seem to work well for about six months and then develop a different level of hardness that turns the bed on my pickup into a giant speaker- not pleasant.
One thing I wonder about is locating the mounts nearer to the natural roll axis of the engine. My application has room for mounts at the center of the engine lengthwise and higher up than most mounts that I’ve seen. My thinking is that mounting these engines down low forces the top of the engine to do most of the squirming, whereas if we mounted up higher it would allow the engine to actually roll, top and bottom.
Another question I have is whether these engines create Any significant amount of Yaw- anotherwords trying to force the trans crossmember in a side- to side motion, which in my case the mount will not absorb any of, and with such a long frame, may be amplifying the problem?
Click to expand...
Mounts on pax side is just in front and high. I had to cut out a bit to clear one of the starter studs.
Not very good pic.

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MaxPF
It should be pointed out that long arms like the above, rigidly mounted to the engine and supported at the frame side, put a lot of bending stress on the block outer walls due to leverage. The Cummins install manual has limits on the bending moment that can be applied to any mount. As a rule, it is best to put the rubber mounts as close as possible to the engine, shortening the length of any support arms and reducing their resulting leverage.
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dreamin said:
Mounts on pax side is just in front and high. I had to cut out a bit to clear one of the starter studs.
Not very good pic.

View attachment 135983
Click to expand...
Thanks! I’m glad to hear that they are working well for you. Haven’t gone through your whole build but it looks like you have slid the engine rearward quite a bit from the original location, No?
-Levi
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