Cummins 4BT & Diesel Conversions Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi everyone,

I'm new here, and have been enjoying what I've read on this list so far. I didn't know about the 4BT group until someone mentioned it over at www.fullsizebronco.com and I'm excited to join!

I love diesels; my first car was a '77 Mercedes 300D, and my only brand-new car was an '03 Jetta TDI that I put 90K miles on in its first three years. I've always wanted to put a light-duty diesel in one of my previous XJ Cherokees (I've bought/fixed/sold/horse-traded seven of 'em!) but never knew there were smaller CTDs than the 5.9 before.

Am wanting to learn about swapping a Cummins 4BT or 6BT in my current '93 Bronco in place of the 351W when I'm confident enough. Hopefully y'all can help me get there. =)

1) On the FSB list, the generally accepted wisdom is doing a solid-axle swap (SAS) from a '78-79 Bronco or a '80-97 F350 to handle the increased weight of a Cummins 6TD (roughly 1,000 lbs?) or the International 6.9/7.3 diesel/PSD conversion.

Is it necessary to do this if one puts a 700lb 4BT onto a Bronco/F-150 twin-traction beam (TTB) front suspension? I'm aware a 4BT is heavier than a 351W, but is it possible to get away with adding a heavier set of coils up front? I'm not a serious off-roader, just want a suspension capable of highway driving, some dirt campsite trails, and towing up to 6-7,000 lbs on-road. Please advise.

2) I've been reading into the E4OD debate with interest... I love driving a stick, but prefer my trucks with automatics for towing. The E4OD has a lot of things going for it; it's a four-speed automatic, proven for towing heavy loads, and lots of applications with high-torque gas and diesel engines. More importantly, it's the transmission I'VE got in my '93 Bronco! Would be nice to retain and re-use what I have, and keep the swap as simple possible.

I see at http://www.fordcummins.com/ap.html they have adapter plates for use with the E4OD for $699 and have torque converter adapters for $325 to mate the stock E4OD converter with the existing Cummins flexplate. Does anyone have any experience with this setup? Please let me know your thoughts, feedback, opinions, etc. I think this is the single most challenging part of the swap.

3) Exhaust - what's the best setup to run here? Is it possible to retain a typical Bronco aftermarket setup (Flowmaster muffler, 3" mandrel bent tubing, high-flow cat, etc) with a 4BT conversion? Obviously, headers and the typical Y-pipe upgrades would be unecessary with a inline-4 or I6 engine setup. I'm curious what the Ford full-size people say here.

Keep the awesome swap threads going!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
145 Posts
I see at http://www.fordcummins.com/ap.html they have adapter plates for use with the E4OD for $699 and have torque converter adapters for $325 to mate the stock E4OD converter with the existing Cummins flexplate. Does anyone have any experience with this setup? Please let me know your thoughts, feedback, opinions, etc. I think this is the single most challenging part of the swap.
With the FordCummins adapter, you will have to cut your bellhousing just for starter clearence! Try www.destroked.com.
Better products & top notch customer service!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
645 Posts
The TTB front should handle the 4BT with no problems. I'm doing a SAS on mine because I never really cared for the way the TTB handled and all the bushings are shot and need replacement. You could start with the stock coils and then add a couple airbags if they're too soft.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
The TTB front should handle the 4BT with no problems. I'm doing a SAS on mine because I never really cared for the way the TTB handled and all the bushings are shot and need replacement. You could start with the stock coils and then add a couple airbags if they're too soft.
Ahhh, that's a relief. I have no strong feelings one way or the other about the SAS or TTB, just want to keep things simple and straightforward. If my feelings change, I might go for an SAS down the road, but am glad to hear it's NOT a requirement with the 4BT.

Does anyone know how much exactly the 351W EFI in my '93 Bronco weighs compared to a 4BT setup?

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
For the trans you'll want to use an OEM Ford style adapter. Your E4OD is a smallblock bellhousing not a diesel. This makes things easier actually. You need a Ford Adapter from a bread van with a chevy style flexplate and wavering then adapt the wavering to your TC. Way cheaper than trying aftermarket junk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
645 Posts
351W weighs about 525, 4BT weighs about 730 or so, about the same as a 460.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
For the trans you'll want to use an OEM Ford style adapter. Your E4OD is a smallblock bellhousing not a diesel. This makes things easier actually. You need a Ford Adapter from a bread van with a chevy style flexplate and wavering then adapt the wavering to your TC. Way cheaper than trying aftermarket junk.

Mooktank - can you describe more about 1) the Ford adapter, 2) Chevy-style flexplate (what's the difference between that and a Ford E4OD flexplate?), and last 3) what's a "wavering"?

Pictures or diagrams would be particularly helpful. I want to know what I need, how to look for it, and know what to watch for. Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
145 Posts
The old style bread van transmission adapter plate is way cheaper, but harder to find. The last Ford bread van adapter sold on eBay, went for around $330.

Ford adapter link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cummins-3-9-4bt-4bta-Ford-T19-ZF5_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ016QQitemZ260193913396QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Thats what they look like, just add a flex plate instead of a flywheel and add a torque converter. Note, you can easily tell the Ford plate from the Chevy plate, because the Chevy plate has that extra top section.

Chevy adapter link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-9-5-9-cummins-adapter-to-chevy-transmition_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33732QQihZ010QQitemZ200185662385QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Keeping the auto presents much additional costs.:puke:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
The old style bread van transmission adapter plate is way cheaper, but harder to find. The last Ford bread van adapter sold on eBay, went for around $330.

Ford adapter link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cummins-3-9-4bt-4bta-Ford-T19-ZF5_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ016QQitemZ260193913396QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Thats what they look like, just add a flex plate instead of a flywheel and add a torque converter. Note, you can easily tell the Ford plate from the Chevy plate, because the Chevy plate has that extra top section.

Chevy adapter link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-9-5-9-cummins-adapter-to-chevy-transmition_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33732QQihZ010QQitemZ200185662385QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Keeping the auto presents much additional costs.:puke:
Thanks F350John - does anyone have any bigger pictures or closeups of the difference between the ford adapter and the Chevy adapter?

Thanks again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,462 Posts
I would think one would atleast want to go to an aftermarket diesel converter for an E4OD swap. The TC is the weak link in the E4OD. Buy a good billet diesel one if you do keep it. You also have to handle controlling the E4OD.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
For the size of a FSB, my reccomendation is a 6bt. I used the entire drivetrain from a '95 3500 CTD in my 1st re-power. In hindsite, I would go earlier (to avoid the ECM), or go with a NV4500 tranny. Here are some pics (I hope this works)

I ordered heavier coils for my TTB, and ran it with no problems. I can't vouch for the longevity (50,60,70,000 miles) of this set-up, but it worked well for the 10k I drove it.





 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Will (Ranger 2/75),

Can you post more pictures of your conversion, especially the front suspension, motor mounts, and how you got the 47RE hooked up?

Sorry if it's a lot to ask, but I'm learning about transmissions here. My only real experience is with '87-01 XJ 4.0 Cherokee AW4 4-speed automatics and AX-15 5-speeds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Just did some looking around.. the 47RH was used on the '90-95 CTD 2500 and 3500 6BT Rams.

Will the same 47RH setup work with a 4BT? I'm kind of inclined to go with the lighter 700 lb engine. I seriously doubt I'll be towing anything heavier than 7500 lbs over short flat distances here in Florida. More like 4-5000 lb loads on flat roads from Tampa Bay to Miami/Keys/Orlando once or twice a month after I'm ready for a boat in a couple years.

Besides, with the Bronco's short wheelbase, I really have no business hauling anything longer than a '21-23 center console boat on a tandem-axle trailer; which shouldn't weigh more than 5500-6000 lbs max.

With the 47RH's low .69 final gearing, I think 4.56 gears could be used front & rear, and end up with roughly a 3.15 final drive ratio on 31 or 32" tires. That's plenty low enough for me, I think.

So, will the 47RH work with the 4BT?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
I don't have a lot of pics online, but I'll search my house for the originals. The 47RH should bolt up, but I am not too sure of the input shaft differences (if any) between the years.

On my 47re, I begged my local dealership to let me photocopy their wiring diagram of the ECM (which I can't find:pissed: ). I then simply hooked up the OD on/off to a dash mounted switch (similar to the kind on the end of newer Ford auto shifter).

The alternator was also controlled by the ECM, and that thing always gave me headaches.

Sooooo I would reccomend using the RH model, and a Ford or GM style 1wire alternator.

The motor mounts where purchased from FordCummins.com
The guy is super cool and will help you out. They were designed for a F-250/350, but I assure you they will BOLT IN on your Bronco.

As a plus, the Bronco already a 3/4 ton frame under it, and will easily handle any swap you do.

On the heater grid, I wire up the stock relays to a large capacity switch, so I could manually turn them on.

Pretty much I was trying to be rid of the blasted ECM.

The 4bt would save quite a bit of weight, and you could intercool it using a late '90's Powerjoke intercooler set up

The main issue with using that 3500 setup was the rear driveshaft length. If I can remember, it was about 18" long when fitted. (I used the 47RE/Np241HD t-case)

I fabbed up a plate of 2" (mabey it was 1 1/2?)billet aluminum, using Moroso wheel studs pressed in(with Green Locktight for insurance)to attach to the tranny x-member,
and then drilled 2 holes to line up with the tranny mount. I then moved my tranny x-member back as needed and re-drilled the mounting holes. Low-tech but it worked.

Picks of the front and rear drive shafts:


Picks of the purchased motor mounts:


I'll try to find some more
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
4,166 Posts
The following links pertain to the Dodge Cummins automatic transmissions and how they function, are controlled, water cooling, etc:

TPS adjustment:
http://piersdiesel.com/Tech1GTPS.htm
http://dens-site.net/Dodge_CTD/tps-adjust.jpg

Replacing the TPS with a potentiometer:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=42003
Another writeup, but with pics:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=142641

Controlling OD using governor pressure:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=156988

TV/kickdown cable adjustment:
http://dens-site.net/Dodge_CTD/Kickdown_Adjustment

2nd gen auto into a 1st gen:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=114702

Automatic trans build:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=160276

The following links pertain to using the Dodge Cummins alternator:

Converting to an old style voltage regulator ('92 and '93 only)
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...q&nr=161&catnr=20&prog=1&lang=en&onlynewfaq=1

Converting the stock alternator to internal regulation:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=148984
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Does anyone have any experience mating the Dodge 47RH 4-speed automatic to the 4BT? Are Dodge pickup parts needed from the 6BT to mate the 4BT with the 47RH?

The reason I ask is because Ranger2/75 recommends doing a 6BT and 47RE/H takeout from a Dodge pickup, and 6BTs are generally easier to find down here in Florida.

I've scoured craigslist from Tallahassee to the Keys, and can't find any bread trucks for sale. I did find a Grumman P30 in Fort Lauderdale, but it was a GM 6.5 turbodiesel.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top