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Has anyone done the wvo conversion?
Has anyone done the wvo conversion?
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I run my Mercedes and heat my house on biodiesel. WVO has some disadvantages as far as convenience. Bio-diesel is nice because I can just throw the wife in the car and not have to worry about startup/shut down sequences, if she gets low and forgets to fill up she can just pull up to the truck pumps and fill.
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heating your house is that with straight veg oil or mix?
It is with true biodiesel, not veggie oil. It is veggie oil that is run through a transesterification process and has a shorter carbon chain thn regular veggie oil. It also has a reduced viscocity, closer to that of #2 diesel at 40F and above. I blend it to about b80, meaning it has 20% diesel fuel. I find that blending it with just a little diesel fuel like that helps the furnace to fire with the pump at a more reasonable pressure and gets a much cleaner/efficient burn than 100% bio will. In the Mercedes... which is only out from april to october.... its 100% bio... :-D un converted veggie oil is much harder to deal with when you are sending the wife out in the car. Those straight veggie burners start on #2 diesel, warm the tank of veggie oil and then you have to switch them over, then you have to remember to switch them back and "purge" it with #2 before you shut it off.
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WVO=Waste Vegetable Oil, typically gotten from restaurants for free. It is not a fuel, it is cooking oil. It does not look like fuel, does not smell like fuel, and the name does not lend one to think that it is fuel. So say it, cooking oil, nope doesn't sound like fuel. Yet it will work but you have to modify the diesel to run on it, why do you have to modify the car, well it isn't fuel. Some wvo will not melt until 130*f or hotter. So imagine trying to run something like butter though your fuel lines. 
Now some wvo is liquid to about 22*f but it is still thick stuff.
Biodiesel=wvo that has been through a chemical process called transesterification. The glycerin has been striped out and falls down to the bottom and what is left on top is called biodiesel. That biodiesel is taken off and filtered and sometimes even sold to the public at gas stations. Now biodiesel is fuel, it is recognized as fuel, and the name even sounds like fuel. As a fuel you do not need to modify modern diesels to run on it. You can just poor it in the tank of any diesel car truck suv dozer loader generator and just drive off. You can mix it in any amount with regular diesel. At the gas pump you will find B5 up to B20. B5 is 5% biodiesel and 95% diesel. B10 is 10% biodiesel and 90% diesel. They don't sell b100 commercially yet, however you can make some yourself like I do. You don't need to know chemistry, or even how to work on cars to make biodiesel. Biodiesel is less toxic than table salt and biodegrades faster than sugar. It is a renewable fuel that can be homegrown to support our farmers, not terrorists.
RUNNING ON BIODIESEL
Remember when I said earlier that any modern diesel will run on biodiesel? Well, so will the old ones, but biodiesel eats the rubber in the pump and the rubber fuel lines. Diesels made after about 94 have viton rubber in their injection pumps and and fuel lines. So what is one to do. Well, you can replace the rubber seals in your IP with viton ones for a few $. Or pay a diesel injection shop to do it. You can also replace the rubber fuel lines with viton as well. Then drive happy.
BIODIESEL AVAILABILITY
You can search the internet and find sites that will show you various gas stations that sell biodiesel in your area. Or you can make your own. It is not hard and is actually fun. If you want to know more email me and I will hook you up with lots of links and info that I have compiled.
RUNNING ON STRAIT WVO
Now, in order to run a diesel on strait wvo you need two fuel systems. One of which is heated. The normal system is for diesel. You need diesel to startup the engine on and warm it up to operating temp. When the engine is warm and the other fuel system is also up to temp then you can switch over. When you want to shut down you must switch back over to diesel to purge the fuel lines of wvo before you shut it off. You want to heat the wvo because the hotter it gets the thinner in viscosity it gets and the easier it moves through the fuel lines and injection pump. Also it has been proven that cold wvo in a cold engine will lead to coking of the injectors and piston rings, leading to ring seizer. None of that is good. I can back this up with paper work from studies. Ask me and I will email them to you. When the oil is at about 160*F it will work wonderfully. The smartest way to get the oil there is to use wasted engine heat from the coolant. The coolant has a thermostat that is usually controlled at 190*F That is perfect. You cannot over heat the oil at these temps, it is usually cooked in fryers at 400*F. Now some people get the bright idea that they can use the exhaust heat. Well, don't. It won't work. On a cold day I can grab the exhaust pipe on my running diesel with my bare hand. A diesel does not throttle by air, only by fuel, so at idle it is ingesting a lot of air, air that cools down the exhaust. A diesel only puts out heat from its exhaust when under full throttle, and then temps can soar higher than 1300*F. The temp difference from the exhaust manifold to the end of the tail pipe is too large of a difference. Also it is not thermostatically controlled. So why don't you just use the thermostatically controlled heat from the engine coolant, it is already at the ideal temp, KISS, keep it simple stupid. I have never seen or talked to anybody that has gotten a exhaust heated system to work. Just use the coolant. It is proven and will make your life easier.
SO WHICH WAY SHOULD YOU GO?
Honstly it really depends on you and what your needs will be as to which way you will go.
WVO=If you drive long distance regulary (20min or more so the fuel can get up to temp) and you are the only one who operates your diesel and you have space for a seperate fuel system, and you like tinkering with your car, and you like switch between two fuels every time you drive it then by all means go with wvo.
BIODIESEL=If however you don't have space for a seperate fuel system, or loan out your diesel to friends and family, or just take short trips arround town, or just want to beable to take it in to the mechcanic without him having a heart attact from looking at your fuel system, then you should go with Biodiesel. Running biodiesel you do not need to instruct anyone on how to operate the car. You can loan it out without worrie. You can run it on regular diesel in a pinch if need be without modification. And you mechanic need not know.
If you have any questions by all mean email me.
Matthew
Now some wvo is liquid to about 22*f but it is still thick stuff.Biodiesel=wvo that has been through a chemical process called transesterification. The glycerin has been striped out and falls down to the bottom and what is left on top is called biodiesel. That biodiesel is taken off and filtered and sometimes even sold to the public at gas stations. Now biodiesel is fuel, it is recognized as fuel, and the name even sounds like fuel. As a fuel you do not need to modify modern diesels to run on it. You can just poor it in the tank of any diesel car truck suv dozer loader generator and just drive off. You can mix it in any amount with regular diesel. At the gas pump you will find B5 up to B20. B5 is 5% biodiesel and 95% diesel. B10 is 10% biodiesel and 90% diesel. They don't sell b100 commercially yet, however you can make some yourself like I do. You don't need to know chemistry, or even how to work on cars to make biodiesel. Biodiesel is less toxic than table salt and biodegrades faster than sugar. It is a renewable fuel that can be homegrown to support our farmers, not terrorists.
RUNNING ON BIODIESEL
Remember when I said earlier that any modern diesel will run on biodiesel? Well, so will the old ones, but biodiesel eats the rubber in the pump and the rubber fuel lines. Diesels made after about 94 have viton rubber in their injection pumps and and fuel lines. So what is one to do. Well, you can replace the rubber seals in your IP with viton ones for a few $. Or pay a diesel injection shop to do it. You can also replace the rubber fuel lines with viton as well. Then drive happy.
BIODIESEL AVAILABILITY
You can search the internet and find sites that will show you various gas stations that sell biodiesel in your area. Or you can make your own. It is not hard and is actually fun. If you want to know more email me and I will hook you up with lots of links and info that I have compiled.
RUNNING ON STRAIT WVO
Now, in order to run a diesel on strait wvo you need two fuel systems. One of which is heated. The normal system is for diesel. You need diesel to startup the engine on and warm it up to operating temp. When the engine is warm and the other fuel system is also up to temp then you can switch over. When you want to shut down you must switch back over to diesel to purge the fuel lines of wvo before you shut it off. You want to heat the wvo because the hotter it gets the thinner in viscosity it gets and the easier it moves through the fuel lines and injection pump. Also it has been proven that cold wvo in a cold engine will lead to coking of the injectors and piston rings, leading to ring seizer. None of that is good. I can back this up with paper work from studies. Ask me and I will email them to you. When the oil is at about 160*F it will work wonderfully. The smartest way to get the oil there is to use wasted engine heat from the coolant. The coolant has a thermostat that is usually controlled at 190*F That is perfect. You cannot over heat the oil at these temps, it is usually cooked in fryers at 400*F. Now some people get the bright idea that they can use the exhaust heat. Well, don't. It won't work. On a cold day I can grab the exhaust pipe on my running diesel with my bare hand. A diesel does not throttle by air, only by fuel, so at idle it is ingesting a lot of air, air that cools down the exhaust. A diesel only puts out heat from its exhaust when under full throttle, and then temps can soar higher than 1300*F. The temp difference from the exhaust manifold to the end of the tail pipe is too large of a difference. Also it is not thermostatically controlled. So why don't you just use the thermostatically controlled heat from the engine coolant, it is already at the ideal temp, KISS, keep it simple stupid. I have never seen or talked to anybody that has gotten a exhaust heated system to work. Just use the coolant. It is proven and will make your life easier.
SO WHICH WAY SHOULD YOU GO?
Honstly it really depends on you and what your needs will be as to which way you will go.
WVO=If you drive long distance regulary (20min or more so the fuel can get up to temp) and you are the only one who operates your diesel and you have space for a seperate fuel system, and you like tinkering with your car, and you like switch between two fuels every time you drive it then by all means go with wvo.
BIODIESEL=If however you don't have space for a seperate fuel system, or loan out your diesel to friends and family, or just take short trips arround town, or just want to beable to take it in to the mechcanic without him having a heart attact from looking at your fuel system, then you should go with Biodiesel. Running biodiesel you do not need to instruct anyone on how to operate the car. You can loan it out without worrie. You can run it on regular diesel in a pinch if need be without modification. And you mechanic need not know.
If you have any questions by all mean email me.
Matthew
So for our 4bt's how would one tell if the pump seals need to be changed to be bio compatable? I think the reman date on mine is in 94 but I'm not 100% on that. I'll get my CPL off it tomorrow since it's too damn cold here.
Any idea how involved it is to swap out the pump seals? Got a source for fuel line?
Good info. I'm glad this group moved to a forum format from the yahoo group. Makes searching and archiving much easier. :beer:'s for all!
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hey matt i hope you cut and paste that....
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I'm not 100% certain on 94+ being ok. I will be checking up with some more knowledgeable people and I will get back to you. I need to know this info for my own 4bta
:happyfinger:
Sigh, yes and no. I sometimes do have diarrhea of the mouth/keybord.
People want to know and it can get confusing. You got confused when RacinRex posted. I got tired of rewriting it over and over so I copied it to my pc one time and now I just cut and past any time the subject comes up.
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just jokin alot of useful info...
later:dustin:
later:dustin:
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It's all good :dustin:
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I've run a lot of B100 in my previous 4BT and/or some blend most other time than that.. No bad experiences at all.. There might be some O ring connections out there that get eaten up but I have never seen anything bad, on 1990, 1991 models.. The big thing is rubber fuel lines, some are compatable, others get soft and sort of eaten up and eventually leak after a few months of running bio.. For what its worth...
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I have not done a 4bt but I've done my IDI mercedes and my 97 PSD DI. No problems what so ever on either. I don't like the hassel and danger of brewing up biodiesel. Not to mention once your car is converted fuel is FREE. Well minus your time of course
12V guys do it even 24V on the newers. You won't have a problem.
12V guys do it even 24V on the newers. You won't have a problem.
I'm gald someone started this post. My goal is to run biodiesel in my conversion. I am not nearly far enough along to start asking questions here about that but am very interested. I did a lot of researching on the WVO which is what I thought I was going to run until after the research. My daily commute is 23 miles to and from work. That would be just about enough time to get things flowing on the WVO before I would have to purge the system again with the diesel. I may get 20 miles at max each day on the WVO. Because of this I decided that the biodiesel would suit me much better. I can run all the time on it. There is another option here. Use the biodiesel instead of the diesel for start up and shut down. I decided against that since I would have the work of both systems. If I am going to set up to make the biodiesel I just as well make enough to use it all the time.
The conversion "kits" I have seen on the net are pricy for the WVO conversion. Since our 4bt conversions are not common there won't be anthing specifically designed for us. Kit priceing is commonly above $2000. Each component may be purchased separately for the DIY guys. It seems it takes a while to get these conversions lined out after installing.
Fuel line that is compatable with the biodiesel is now commonly available. Goodyear and Gates hose that is fuel injection rated will handle it. I have had a problem finding fuel fill tube that is properly rated. My tank requires 1 7/8 hose. I bought some at the local parts store thinking I had the right thing. After returning home I saw the riciept said coolant hose. WRONG!
My wife and I commonly do not see eye to eye on automotive matters. (I just had a few small items to paint in the garage. She has planes for later and ask me to wait to paint until she left. I said sure. Once she was back in the house I mixed up the paint and let it fly. She's hot! OOPS!) She says there is no way I'm making biodiesel here. Normally I just agree and go ahead with my plans, but she seems especially firm on this issue. I insist that I can have a small midwestern chemical plant right in our garage. Monsanto/Solutia has applied for a manufacturing permit here for a biodiesel production plant. I am sure it will be approved. They are currently building an ethanol plant here. I am employed in an oil/gear lube additave plant right next to their facility. We are currently developing biodiesel additives. It's going to get big. Then uncle sam will step in and say we can't make anymore at home since we aren't paying road tax on it.
The conversion "kits" I have seen on the net are pricy for the WVO conversion. Since our 4bt conversions are not common there won't be anthing specifically designed for us. Kit priceing is commonly above $2000. Each component may be purchased separately for the DIY guys. It seems it takes a while to get these conversions lined out after installing.
Fuel line that is compatable with the biodiesel is now commonly available. Goodyear and Gates hose that is fuel injection rated will handle it. I have had a problem finding fuel fill tube that is properly rated. My tank requires 1 7/8 hose. I bought some at the local parts store thinking I had the right thing. After returning home I saw the riciept said coolant hose. WRONG!
My wife and I commonly do not see eye to eye on automotive matters. (I just had a few small items to paint in the garage. She has planes for later and ask me to wait to paint until she left. I said sure. Once she was back in the house I mixed up the paint and let it fly. She's hot! OOPS!) She says there is no way I'm making biodiesel here. Normally I just agree and go ahead with my plans, but she seems especially firm on this issue. I insist that I can have a small midwestern chemical plant right in our garage. Monsanto/Solutia has applied for a manufacturing permit here for a biodiesel production plant. I am sure it will be approved. They are currently building an ethanol plant here. I am employed in an oil/gear lube additave plant right next to their facility. We are currently developing biodiesel additives. It's going to get big. Then uncle sam will step in and say we can't make anymore at home since we aren't paying road tax on it.
waste oil conversion
Here is a company that converts vehicals to straight veggie oil. They dump it right into the stock tank. No heated tank either. Check out their kit.
http://www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/
By the way I am new to the forum, and this is my first post, I hope know one minds.
Here is a company that converts vehicals to straight veggie oil. They dump it right into the stock tank. No heated tank either. Check out their kit.
http://www.lovecraftbiofuels.com/
By the way I am new to the forum, and this is my first post, I hope know one minds.
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I've heard some bad things about them. Not to say they are just seems to be the case.
There are quite a few other companies out there as well
like grease works, greasel, neo-teric, frybird. They all make some pretty good stuff and some of it pretty spendy. You can make most everything yourself myabe just not as nice and get yourself a racor or dahl filter and be good to go.
There are quite a few other companies out there as well
like grease works, greasel, neo-teric, frybird. They all make some pretty good stuff and some of it pretty spendy. You can make most everything yourself myabe just not as nice and get yourself a racor or dahl filter and be good to go.
If your not heating it shame on you. WVO must be 160 doing into the engine or it will coke. There are several companies selling snake oil to thin the WVO. There snake oil is designed for one purpose. Make them money. Check on the web for forums concerning the WVO. The guys that have been involved for a while all swear against conversions like this.
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conversions like what? I'm confused what you mean
Hmmm but I do agree. The viscosity of oil does not become like #2 until above 170 ( I think there is a chart on the frybird site) but at that point it is pretty darn close and the amount of energy to raise it higher than that is a lost cuase. On an old IDI that temp is not as important but the new DI engines it is very important.
Anyway i bought a kit for my DI truck and it works great but was really spendy. Built my own for my mercedes cost me just over 100 without the tank and it is just as if not more bomb proof then the expensive kit.
Been running both for almost 2 years now and no problems to report.
#1: Filter Filter Filter
#2: Add lots of heat
#3: Make sure you shut down on #2
I can't remember the name of that snake oil company but you will know it when you see it. To easy to spot. you don't need some speacial additive to make fuel out of wvo. You need lye and methanol and a little knowledge of chemistry is it.
Hmmm but I do agree. The viscosity of oil does not become like #2 until above 170 ( I think there is a chart on the frybird site) but at that point it is pretty darn close and the amount of energy to raise it higher than that is a lost cuase. On an old IDI that temp is not as important but the new DI engines it is very important.
Anyway i bought a kit for my DI truck and it works great but was really spendy. Built my own for my mercedes cost me just over 100 without the tank and it is just as if not more bomb proof then the expensive kit.
Been running both for almost 2 years now and no problems to report.
#1: Filter Filter Filter
#2: Add lots of heat
#3: Make sure you shut down on #2
I can't remember the name of that snake oil company but you will know it when you see it. To easy to spot. you don't need some speacial additive to make fuel out of wvo. You need lye and methanol and a little knowledge of chemistry is it.
Guess your right, that isn't a conversion at all. It's just thinnner. It doesn't matter how thin you get it, it will still coke if it isn't hot.
I would have liked to go the WVO route, but with the length of my normal trips it just didn't make sense.
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Hey beck don't get to discouraged. That is plenty. 2.3 miles might be a bit low but 23 is way way more than enough. My car warms up after 4 miles. But not only that if you head with both electric and car heat all the better. With injection line heaters or an inline electric fuel heater you can switch over a couple miles down the road. Just want to make sure you car isn't completely cold. Then if you rig it up right you only need 30 seconds to run it out of wvo and back onto diesel. My truck takes 10 mins for a complete complete purge (my trucks system was a pain but the Mercedes is easy takes but 30 seconds) but in the summer I switch it back the last 4 miles about 6 minutes from home. My commute is abou 16 miles and it saves me a bundle and the truck likes it to. I switch over in the mornings after the first start about 3-4 miles in but at lunch and at the end of the day the truck still has some residual heat and I flip it after I pull out of the parking lot and am up to speed. thousands of miles on both and no problemo's.
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