Cummins 4BT & Diesel Conversions Forums banner

1 - 20 of 106 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone!, My name is Trevor Ruffcorn i am a co-owner of Ruffcorn Farms. We currently have 8 FL 912 Air cooled deutz's that run our irrigation systems, ranging from the 6 cylinder all the way down to the 1 cylinder. We have turboed ones and N/A ones. The engines we own run up to 22 hours a day in the summer in upwards of 100 degree days. I am our deutz mechanic so i have a decent amount of experiance with these engines. If you have any questions about air cooled Deutz engines dont be afraid to ask! :beer:

Trevor
 

·
Hangs Out With Dogs
Joined
·
2,588 Posts
Here's the thing that gets me about Deutz. They are so precise even when they shouldn't be. I have nightmares about when I finally take the heads off my F5L 912 and the bolts are stuck. We had a ton of trouble just getting the oil filter housing off because the aluminum galded to the steel bolts. When the heads come off its got to be galded inside that 30 year old engine. All I know is to work the bolts back and forth with air ratchet and keep em soaked with pentrating lube until they break free. Otherwise you bust em off and have to heat the block and weld a nut to them etc. I wonder if i can start presoaking them while the engine is still in use?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Don't sweat it! The bolts thread into the crankcase, which is iron, and usually don't come out hard. They are long skinny bolts and I have never broken one, but I have pitched a few that stretched too much. The hard part is getting all the carbon off the one in the ex. port so a socket will fit it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Have you ever seen the crank on a Deutz? What were they thinking!!! They work fine, but my gosh, is all that complexity really needed? (The bolt on machined counterweights) Don't forget new flywheel bolts, they are one time use stretch bolts, which i found out the hard way!! Engine ran, tractor didn't move!!!
 

·
Hangs Out With Dogs
Joined
·
2,588 Posts
Sometimes I think they design something simple that works and then spend as much time making it complicated. Maybe they make something that works 97% perfect and then add another 75% percent of complexity to make it work 99% perfect. Sort of like this post.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Hi, new guy here-I'm about to get a Deutz f5l 912 engine. It seems to run fine, though it smokes blue some. Here's the weird part-it's in a 1979 dodge motorhome, and not a very large one. It's small enough that the front of the motorhome is a regular dodge van front end. It has a rear sump pan, which I gather might be desirable, and it has what looks to be TWO bellhousing adapters, one in front of the other. The transmission is a chrysler 727. I have not yet determined whether it's a smallblock bellhousing or a big block bellhousing. I'd expect it might have 6 pinion planetaries and maybe some other heavy duty hard parts that could come in handy for another project. Anyway, if any of you guys could point me in the direction of some basic info on this engine I sure would appreciate it. (stuff like engine weight, how much torque they make, etc etc.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Howdy! Welcome to the Forum, i have honestly never heard of a Deutz in a dodge motorhome. I could be wrong but it makes me think someone has swapped it into your motorhome in the past. Anyways, that motor is pusing around 70-85 hp. It is normal for them to smoke when running without a load or like and other diesel, when they arent warmed up yet. Deutz engines are very very very relible and about the only things we have had to do to ours, besides rebuilds is changing the lift pump on the side of the injector pump. Give me some numbers off of your engine and i should be able to find you out some more information.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Pour 5 Cyliner Duetz le moteur ils ont été notés n'importe où de 80 à 100 CV et environ 250 à 300 Ftlbs toqure et j'ai les possèdent auparavant et au poêle ma question j'ai vraiment ajouté un turbocompresseur pour y donner un coup de pied jusqu'à de 150CV à plus de mangable pour mon useage.

For the 5 Cyliner Duetz engine they were rated anywhere from 80 to 100 CV and about 250 to 300 Ftlbs toqure and I have own them before and to slove my issue I did add a turbocharger to kick it up to about 150CV to more mangable for my useage.

Merci,Marc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
I think it was original to the motorhome. One reason is that there are lights on the dashboard pertaining to the diesel engine. I can't remember what the lights say, except that one of them might have been "water in fuel". The plate on the engine has it rated at 100 hp. One other thing that makes me think the engine was original is the fact that the radiator support, though it had no radiator, had a curved section to support the air filter canister. The curve looked factory, not like someone did it after the vehicle was built.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Hi Trevor,

I have a friend who has a F2L511. This is rated 28hp at 2800 rpm.

I'm wondering if this would work to power my VW bus. The stock gas engine is 70 HP and 110 lb/ft torque. I'm looking for fuel economy in making the switch and would like to have similar performance.

I'd like to be able to cruise at 75 mph if I wanted to and get 30+ MPG hopefully closer to 35. I like the idea of the small power plant for economy. To maintain 65 mph (which I'd do more often than 75), I probably don't need much more than the 28 hp. To accelerate or climb a hill, I would need more.

I know in other diesels, you can often run a turbo at high boost and make a lot more power - when needed for acceleration and hills. I read elsewhere that you can't do that with the Deutz or it gets melted. Any advice? Can the engine be modified to run boost safely? How much power could I get? Is there any way to (safely) run more than 2800 rpm?

Thanks,

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
I do not think the 28 hp engine will work well. Here's why:

28 hp is probably not anywhere near enough to cruise at 75, maybe not even at 65 mph. Think about it-your bus came with 70 hp. You're proposing to lose more than half of your power. Remember also that you won't get 28 hp to the ground-that's at the flywheel, not including drivetrain losses. Assuming your bus has a manual transmission, 15% is a generally accepted drivetrain loss figure. That comes out to not quite 24 hp at the wheels. If it's an auto it will be somewhat worse.

Those vw buses look to be about as aerodynamic as a barn, meaning wind drag at highway speeds will be quite high. I believe (can't prove) that wind drag alone at highway speeds would use up most or even all of the power with something as un-aerodynamic as a vw bus. Then add in drivetrain loss, rolling resistance of the tires, alternator drag, and maybe a bit of safety margin so you don't have to keep it floored absolutely all the time and you end up with a no win situation.

Real world example: My dad bought a 1952 beetle new in 1952. It was obviously much smaller than a vw bus, with less wind drag. It had 36 hp, which is a little more than 28% higher than the engine you're proposing to use. He told me that he would get out on the (then relatively new) interstates in that car and just lock his right knee. In his words, "it would go 85 downhill and 35 uphill and it just about worked out right." So, it would probably do almost but not quite what you're hoping for with 28% more power in a much smaller, more aerodynamic package.

As for improving power via turbocharging, I'm not an expert on the deutz engines. What little I've read about turbocharging the air cooled ones that weren't originally turbocharged is that relatively small gains are possible before you run into problems with overheating and excessive cylinder pressures.

As you've probably gathered, I don't think you will get satisfactory performance in a vw bus with a 28 hp engine. I think your idea is a neat one and worth pursuing, just not with that particular engine.
 

·
Hangs Out With Dogs
Joined
·
2,588 Posts
The 28 hp deutz will probably feel like a 60 hp gas engine because of the torque. I would say that a 3 cylinder would be very satisfying in a bus except your gonna have gearing problems because of the lower rpm's, and vibration. There is a guy here with a 2 cylinder Detroit in a Ford truck, but it's turbo. It's easy to melt a Deutz by adding a turbo because of the exacting engineering requirements of an air-cooled engine of that size and power output. I know of a 2 cylinder Deutz in a Jeep CJ and the owner is very satisfied with it in the woods, but he is an older farmer type-of-guy. I don't know if he uses it on the road. My 100 hp F5L 912 feels like a 2 barrel big block V8 in my Ford F 150 short bed.

Plus you'll need a Deutz to VW bell housing and clutch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,528 Posts
not just due to the power or vibration (1st vw transporter vans had just 30hp out of a gasser), but the weight of the deutz F2L511 seems to be a problem to the vw stock transmission as the engine weight is supported only by the transmission...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
A 28 hp deutz may feel like 60 hp, but rest assured that this will not fool the wind drag. It takes a certain amount of hp to move a certain vehicle at a certain speed, and lots of low end torque will not change that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Thanks for the advice, gents. I think you're right -- it's not the best fit for the application. There are too many issues:

-Need more power and can't get enough by safely running a turbo.
-RPM range wrong for trans. I thought of running some 2:1 double gearing between the engine and trans but now it's an even more complicated idea.
-By the time I look at 3 or 4 cylinders to get enough power, the size and weight will be excessive. (Early buses use only the trans to mount the engine. My 78 bus does have a rear engine mount too, but still...)

Since I'm looking for economy and reasonable power (i.e. efficiency), I should probably revisit the more conventional choice of an early TDI which has been done before...

Thanks again!
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,384 Posts
A 3 cylinder inline diesel (3M41) from Hatz diesel may be a good choice. It develops 59hp, and it is 680lbs
Governed to 3000rpm
http://www.hatz-diesel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Typenblaetter/tb_m41_eng.pdf


Deutz makes a 2, 3 and 4 cylinder 2800rpm oil cooled diesels in the L2011 series
3 Cylinder Turbocharged : BF3L2011 48hp, 490lbs
4 Cylinder Turbocharged : BF4L2011 58hp, 560lbs
http://www.deutz.com/live_deutz_products/html/display:engine?engineKey=8a85818a11c1035d0111e02c11d102a9&count=3


The 2 cylinder Detroit Diesel Pat is referring to, is about 700lbs of engine. 106 cubic inch, and it develops 55-70hp. I have heard of a few modified 2-53's running in the 105-110hp range.
They are a tall and require a moderately sized cooling system. You can talk to member "supercharged65" Jason has a modified turbocharged 2-53 in his 1/2 ton ford and he gets pretty decent mileage with it.


The 4 cylinder VW diesel 1.8 or 1.9L would be small lightweight and plenty powerful. The only problem is that they are electronically controlled, so it will make a swap quite difficult. It would be the most fuel efficient engine to replace your current one with. It will be somewhere around 2 x as fuel efficient as the other options

Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,528 Posts
A 3 cylinder inline diesel (3M41) from Hatz diesel may be a good choice. It develops 59hp, and it is 680lbs
Governed to 3000rpm
http://www.hatz-diesel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Typenblaetter/tb_m41_eng.pdf
there's a 36.9hp kohler that i believe could be better to a vw due to the weight concentration...
http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/productDetail.htm?productNumber=KD625-3 as it weights about 375lbs (almost the half)

i would actually start to consider a watercooled one as there are some lighter watercooleds that could fit the vw engine bay... just would need to place the radiator somewhere but instead of use that workaround done by vw in brazil and mexico to fit the radiator in the front of the vehicle maybe the radiator could be placed like in some rear-engined urban shuttle buses or coaches...
forget the audio in this video (it's in portuguese), but you can clearly see the radiator and the engine, exactly what i believe that would be the best setup...

The 4 cylinder VW diesel 1.8 or 1.9L would be small lightweight and plenty powerful. The only problem is that they are electronically controlled, so it will make a swap quite difficult. It would be the most fuel efficient engine to replace your current one with. It will be somewhere around 2 x as fuel efficient as the other options
some brazilian "kombis" had been factory-fitted with the 50hp 1.6idi...

you can clearly see the "diesel" label...
 
1 - 20 of 106 Posts
Top