[smoxy]

Just wanted to know if these computers were being re-programmed yet? Smarty? EFI Live? Stand Alone? I am to understand that you can do turbo upgrades and that the injectors can also be upgraded as they are the same as '03-'04.5 5.9CR. I think someone said that the '03-'04.5 TST MP-8 box will also work. Any of this true? What about CP3 mods/upgrades? Any new info? I know a few guys on here are using these engines!

 

[smoxy]

Lookin like stand alone is the only an$wer here $$$$$$! Unless your a cummins tech who has access to ecu interface and software!

 

[bobpr]

www.narwhalmotors.com
Check these guys out they are in canada and are very much into programing ISB and ISX engines

 

[smoxy]

Wow! These guys are only a couple of hours away from me! How did you come across this? Have you any experience with them? Thanks!

 

[51dieselc4]

I don't know about the isb or isx compatability but i called combine performance there web address is shopagripower.com it starts with www but I don't have ten posts yet. They claim that there chip can give me gains on my qsb 4.5 of up to 51 horse. I would like more but i will likely try one unless I find something better while getting the engine in.

 

[DieselSchlepper]

Wonder what Narwhale is doing these days. Notice all activity seems to cease on website after 2010.

 

[AlxJ64]

Anyone know if you can just walk into a Cummins shop or big truck repair shop and let them dial into the ECM and adjust the parameters? I know that my old man had a Western Star with a CAT in it with a big set of twins and when he put a different driver in it he had the dealership tune the truck back on a few various parameters using a laptop. They usually charged an hour shop rate as the tune adjustments usually only took about 10 minutes or less.

Also, in regards to the newer Common rail engines, I've read of people tuning the motor up to the 200 hp numbers simply by adjusting the ECM parameters but yet when they are asked how it was done, there is just silence or they can't say because their inside guy would get in trouble. I'm guessing that turning the motor up is a no-no for the guys at Cummins to do?

 

[Octamog]

Anyone know if you can just walk into a Cummins shop or big truck repair shop and let them dial into the ECM and adjust the parameters? I know that my old man had a Western Star with a CAT in it with a big set of twins and when he put a different driver in it he had the dealership tune the truck back on a few various parameters using a laptop. They usually charged an hour shop rate as the tune adjustments usually only took about 10 minutes or less.

Also, in regards to the newer Common rail engines, I've read of people tuning the motor up to the 200 hp numbers simply by adjusting the ECM parameters but yet when they are asked how it was done, there is just silence or they can't say because their inside guy would get in trouble. I'm guessing that turning the motor up is a no-no for the guys at Cummins to do?

There is a 200hp version of the 3.9 ISB in the Brazilian F-250, so there is definitely a 200hp factory tune.

 

[51dieselc4]

Do any of you know if you could put an ISB tune into the QSB. I don't know the intricate details of the differance between the two. I have the QSB 4.5 and am hoping that the 200hp brazilian tune could go into it. Or if maybe there is something that the 4.5 is in that had more then the 170hp program and the 2600rpm govenor.

 

[AlxJ64]

I spoke with an Engineer with Cummins last night and he said that he was not aware of any differences between the ISB and the QSB of pre '07 except for the tunes. He said that you need the WHOLE file to basically re-write the ECM using proprietary software though and that for someone who isn't at the factory or in Cummins Engineering and software departments, a regular tech usually can't just reach in and start flipping parameters to yield a high hp tune because there are LOTS of tweaks within the system that have to occur to get the 200 hp tune out of the Brazilian engine. He also said that if someone can find the Brazilian tune somehow, that its possible for a Cummins tech to flash the tune onto the motor. Obviously you will have to do some dancing and talking though because I guess for emissions sake, in the US... If they modify the tune on the engine beyond its original design, people can get in trouble.

This being the case, I was wondering if anyone can confirm the mechanical internals of the ISB, ISBe, and QSB engines as being the same? Have you guys looked through some of the hot hot Euro tunes for the ISBe engines? Those motors are putting a LOT of power out as well.

 

[Octamog]

Iveco offers a marinized version of the 3.9 now, with a rating of 250hp.

http://www.powertechengines.com/IvecoMarine/N40-ENT-M25-DS-P3D04N005E.pdf

 

[51dieselc4]

I was thinking that you would be able to buy the entire ecm rewrite file from a cummins dealer and have it installed as a normal upfront buisness transaction especially since it is going into a 51 so I don't think emissions will even be an issue. So what I mean is that I supposed that they would look up the tune and down load it. AlxJ64 makes it sound like I would have to have it alsmost pirated from a brazilian ecu. I might just be misunderstanding. But I don't know what the engineer ment by find the brazilian tune somehow.

 

[AlxJ64]

I was thinking that you would be able to buy the entire ecm rewrite file from a cummins dealer and have it installed as a normal upfront buisness transaction especially since it is going into a 51 so I don't think emissions will even be an issue. So what I mean is that I supposed that they would look up the tune and down load it. AlxJ64 makes it sound like I would have to have it alsmost pirated from a brazilian ecu. I might just be misunderstanding. But I don't know what the engineer ment by find the brazilian tune somehow.

I was out in the midwest for work this past week and swung by a Cummins dealer one evening that was near my hotel. Man, people are nice in the midwest! Asked the techs a few questions and they were saying that the QSB engines may or may not be slightly different so there is more to it than a tune. What would need to be done is those of us that want the Brazilian tune on a QSB will need to find the CPL of the brazilian motor and make sure the CPL of our motor is similar in parts. They said that sometimes nothing is different, except the tune. They said sometimes its just a turbo difference, or sometimes its lots of things like compression, cam profile, etc. They told me that a Cummins dealer is not "technically" allowed to put any tune on the engine other than what the factory build application inteded it for... and yes this is in regards to the EPA. The engines are built to meet those specs and the manufacturer is not supposed to "enable" the consumer to modify this stuff for any reason as it affects emissions, even if we are installing it in a vintage vehicle. The guys I talked to smiled and said "Technically".... which gave me a feel that if I work out the kinks, they will help me out. I'm not going to say who or where this was though. If I figure it out, I'll let folks know and we can go from there.

So what we need... We need to source the tune or atleast engine profile of the 200 hp engine.... Then need an engine that mechanically is close to the 200 hp engine... From that techs comments it sounds like anything Tier 3 and Tier 4 are the best bets in the QSB line of engines.

The last info he left me with... Buy an ISB 170 and just have them tweak some fuel and timing parameters in the engine. They can set the Throttle Position sensor to a point where basically if you hammer down or exceed X% throttle, the engine WAY adjusts timing and fuel and really steps into a different range... He said there are a "few" parameters that can be adjusted via the J-com port on the ECM but without having the factory hardware and software, they can't go into much depth aside from a FULL re-flash of a stock tune from Cummins.

Another piece of advice, they suggested getting ahold of some of the stand alone common rail ECM guys such as Narwhal and seeing what they might know or have avail. And also, he mentioned that they had a customer a year ago try to buy an ISBe250 or something hot from a Euro- Dealer and have it shipped in. Evidently Cummins has a red flag that flys up and when the engine came in, they had some software ugrades they were asked to install... Not thinking much of it, they flashed the new programs into the ECM... The tune they ended up with was a gutless wonder and the engine buyer was so displeased that he returned the engine to Cummins for a credit towards a used ISB170 and the engine was then parted out and used for other stuff. The ECM was requested back to Europe and they do not have the original flash saved either... sadly. Evidently Cummins KNOWS they would be in hot water for letting one of those euro-diesels into the states... once again... EPA won't get their head out of their azzes.

 

[51dieselc4]

It is too darn bed that we couldn't just focus on mileage requirements instead of all of the gasses coming out of the exhaust. Awsome post.

 

[black06]

It is too darn bed that we couldn't just focus on mileage requirements instead of all of the gasses coming out of the exhaust. Awsome post.

Somehow the EPA cannot come to the conclusion that getting more MPG = less fuel burned = less emission

 

[oneslowdodge1500]

seems like the marine ecu is the way to go. now only how to get it from iveco? or maybe possibly putting a 5.9 common rail tune on the 3.9 ecu. like fuel and timing maps, govenor rpm, pilot injection, ect.

 

[oneslowdodge1500]

so anyone come up on how to pirate a tune from another ecu or would you only have to have the engine serial number and cpl number and could pull up the tune through cummins, say someone at cummins willing to reflash the ecu. could the tune from a 5.9 common rail be loaded to the 3.9 or 4.5 isb ecu?
ive looked into efi live and get the general point of it. just need to know if any of this is doable before jumping into an isb 3.9. since im building the engine im putting a cam in it, bigger injectors, upgraded valvetrain, and a ported head. so would like to get the most out of it. and the 200-250 hp tune would be nice.

 

[AlxJ64]

I'm picking up a CR motor at the end of this month if all goes as planned. I'm all for doing some more digging to get a 200 HP tune. I am slowly making friends with the guys at my local Cummins dealership and I think that I may be able to have enough guidance to set myself up to be able to hack and flash my own ECM. I just have to figure out how to get my hands on the correct tunes, or at-least know what parameters to "safely" mess with.

 

[oneslowdodge1500]

for all of us here wanting to venture this route please do share. I too am making good friends with the owner of m local cummins dealer and hoping he will be interested enough to help flash the ecu. not sure which one im going to go with or if it even matters. supposedly the 4.5 ecu uses a dodge cummins common rail connector. just modified a bit and possibly repinned. Im just hoping that larger turbo, higher hp injectors, and more boost can be tuned with the ecu in the "parameters" or if a programer can be installed. Also wondering if the cummins ecu will output through the can bus connection the correct code or info for my dodge cluster.

 

[Jason1951]

I thought I would add to this. You change the horsepower ratings on any cummins ISB,C,M,L or X via the ecm. The issue occurs when you try to do so, you will have to purchase this upgrade. The parameters do not allow for much in the way of tuning. I call these uprates. I do them with CATs and Cummins at least once a week. You will have to change the CPL and calibration file in the ecm. All these files are available and could be via file format. But you cannot just upload them into the ecm that easily. You will need Cummins insite and need to be registered as a Certified cummins dealer. You then have to have cummins sent you the factory password (they call it something else but I cannot remember it at the moment) to be able to program the ecm. They everything from the regiseterd version of insite on the computer being use, engine serial number and old cpl and calibration number to send you the password. They have put a lot of protections into stopping this. which sucks. Even as a certified cummins tech at a dealer, i can not simply uprate an engine with out cummins saying okay to do so. Next time my rep is in I can probe him for some ideas on how to do it but at this moment, this is the only way I know how. There is also a company call PDI. They are becoming very big and possibly have performance ecms and/or can program your old ecm for gains for the ISB. i have seen them on ISX's so I dont see why not the ISB. As a dealer, we have glued hands when it comes to a lot of the performance stuff becomes we have to stay certified to provide warranty. If anyone figures out a way, I would be very interested to know.