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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been researching this since I read the Sept issue of Diesel Power with a 400 HP Bronco.I finally spoke to Paul Gordey ,he works for the EPA,today and he told me NO WAY in NC!! This was not what I wanted to hear.He did say if the diesel was an option I might be able to register it.Fortunately in NC a vehicles 35 years or older doesn't have to be inspected annually.Jeep,Bronco,Scout the search begins.I just thought I'd put this out there and save someone else alot of time and maybe some money.
 

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I've been researching this since I read the Sept issue of Diesel Power with a 400 HP Bronco.I finally spoke to Paul Gordey ,he works for the EPA,today and he told me NO WAY in NC!! This was not what I wanted to hear.He did say if the diesel was an option I might be able to register it.Fortunately in NC a vehicles 35 years or older doesn't have to be inspected annually.Jeep,Bronco,Scout the search begins.I just thought I'd put this out there and save someone else alot of time and maybe some money.
Thanks for the post man, probally saved a lot of people time and money!:)
 

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What happens if you've already performed the swap while living in another state and then move to NC?

Just playing devil's advocate.......
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Great question,I don't know but I'm suppose to call him back next week.He's going to discuss this with some more colleagues.He sent me some information and as soon as I figure out how to post it.I will.The EPA laws are for the whole country,if the state is getting federal money they're applicable.The nc inspectors didn't know for sure but said no.They wouldn't pass it.I have three friends with shops that I help with diesels when they get stumped.They said they couldn't inspect it for me.They can't afford to lose inspection license,very strict around here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
April 30, 1996


RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS ABOUT ENGINE CHANGES AND I/M PROGRAMS


The Clean Air Act (Act) requires vehicle and engine manufacturers to certify that their vehicles will meet federal emission standards for the model year in which they were built, and they design and install the systems and components necessary to meet those standards. Federal emissions standards have applied to motor vehicles since 1968.


Section 203(a)(3) of the Act prohibits any person from permanently removing or rendering inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in any motor vehicle by the manufacturer for that vehicle to meet federal emission standards. Vehicles which have had emission control systems removed or modified can contribute up to five times the amount of pollution to the atmosphere as identical vehicles with the devices and systems properly installed. Accordingly, any change from the original certified configuration of a vehicle could be considered a violation of section 203(a)(3). This provision applies to all light-duty motor vehicles sold or offered for sale in the United States since 1968.


The attached Fact Sheet is intended to clarify our enforcement position concerning engine changes or "engine switching" (i.e., replacing engines with those that are not identical to the original engines). Basically, our enforcement policy is that EPA will not consider any engine change to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that the emissions are not adversely affected.


Obviously, replacing a damaged or defective engine with an identical engine which maintains the certified configuration of the original vehicle is not illegal and, if properly done, will probably result in lower vehicle emissions. Since emissions standards have generally become progressively more stringent over the years, there is a presumption that vehicles built in the same or newer model year will be as "clean" or "cleaner" than older vehicles. Therefore, any other engine change would also be acceptable to EPA if the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emissions related parts, engine calibrations, and engine and material vehicle design parameters) to any certified configuration for that general type of vehicle (light-duty passenger car or truck), so long as the certified configuration is for a comparable vehicle that is the same or newer model year as the original vehicle chassis. Therefore, if a vehicle is modified to be identical in all material respects to another certified configuration of the same model year or newer comparable vehicle by properly installing an entire powertrain and control system (including fuel system, evaporative system, transmission, ignition system, computer controls, exhaust system, and all the associated parts and accessories), we would not consider it to be tampering.


However, while it may be legally possible to insert a newer powertrain and control system from one vehicle manufacturer into an older vehicle or the chassis of another manufacturer, there is a concern that in practice these types of changes are usually not completed correctly either because of the prohibitive cost or the lack of proper ability or knowledge. As noted above, it is not a matter of merely replacing the engine. Therefore, EPA presumes this type of engine change to be illegal unless the person who installs the engine can demonstrate that he/she has or will correctly make all the necessary modifications to make the powertrain and control system in the vehicle identical to an appropriate certified configuration.


While replacing a worn out engine may result in lower vehicle emissions if it is properly done, the cost and complications involved in changing engines from one configuration to another may be impractical, infeasible or economically prohibitive in many situations. A person undertaking an engine change should be aware of the realistic costs and difficulties that may be involved. Our experience indicates that engine replacements often result in violations of the tampering prohibition, even where the engine is the "same" as the one originally installed on the vehicle.


The emissions testing that manufacturers perform to demonstrate compliance with federal standards is more comprehensive than the emissions tests used by the state and local Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) programs. For example, the federal procedures for light-duty cars and trucks require the vehicles to undergo prescribed sequences of fueling, parking, and operating in order to simulate an average trip in an urban area. Heavy-duty engine testing requires a similar transient mode testing procedure. During these procedures, the emissions are sampled continuously over the entire test cycle for subsequent analyses of specific components by prescribed analytical techniques. These procedures are more representative of in-use operation than any state or locally run emissions test.


The emissions measurement portion of the most I/M tests used by state I/M programs are designed merely as screening tests for identifying gross emitting vehicles which have not had proper maintenance (spark plug replacements, air filter changes, timing adjustments, carburetion adjustments, etc.), and not to measure compliance with federal standards or to detect whether specific emission control components are present and operational. The tests usually only involve the insertion of a probe into the tail-pipe of the vehicle while the vehicle is idling or operating at a constant speed and instantaneously measuring the exhaust emissions. A few state programs use a more advanced test procedure which is more sophisticated. However, these tests are not as stringent or accurate as the federal test procedures and the results are not comparable. It would be inaccurate to assume that just because a vehicle "passes" an I/M emissions test that it could also pass federal standards.


In order to help bridge the gap between the accuracy of the federal certification testing and the I/M emissions test, many state I/M programs also require that certain emissions related components be specifically checked for their presence and operation. In order to avoid the confusion created by the misperception that passing an I/M emissions test means the vehicle can meet federal standards, most I/M programs do not perform the emissions measurement portion of the test until the vehicle is properly equipped with the components that were originally on the vehicle as it was certified by the manufacturer. Some states have even attempted to reduce the problems associated with engine replacements and the emission systems by adopting stringent engine replacement requirements. Often this includes requiring the replacement engines to be identical to the original ones.


Since I/M programs are administered by state or local governments, any questions about administration of those programs and the legality of certain modification to vehicles should be addressed to the state or local agency in charge of the program.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Here's the rest of it.If there are images in this attachment, they will not be displayed. Download the original attachment
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UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCYWASHINGTON, D.C. 20460ENGINE SWITCHING FACT SHEET UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCYWASHINGTON, D.C. 20460March 13, 1991OFFICE OF AIR AND RADIATIONPursuant to frequent requests for information received by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency(EPA) regarding the legality and effects of engine switching, this document will summarize federal lawand policy pertaining to this matter, and will discuss other related issues. A. Federal LawThe federal tampering prohibition is contained in section 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or renderinginoperative any emission control device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motorvehicle engine prior to its sale and delivery to an ultimate purchaser and prohibits any person fromknowingly removing or rendering inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale anddelivery, and the causing thereof. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by amanufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Section 203(a)(3)(B) of the Actprohibits any person from manufacturing or selling, or offering to sell, or installing, any part orcomponent intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine where aprincipal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device orelement of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, and where the personknows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or is being installed forsuch use. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section is $2,500. EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine isremoved from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engineswitching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA(Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certifiedconfiguration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissionsare not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal TestProcedure would be necessary to make this determination.
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2A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved)by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits anapplication for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior toproduction. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, enginecalibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), orengine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use,in vehicles of the upcoming model year. For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty engne into a different light-duty vehicle by anyperson would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to allemission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration ofthe same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing thatemissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technicalinformation regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehiclemanufacturer. For heavy-duty vehicles, the resulting vehicle must contain a heavy-duty engine which is identical to acertified configura- tion of a heavy-duty engine of the same model year or newer as the year of theinstalled engine. Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in alight-duty vehicle. The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle withanother gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involvesdiesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine.Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configurationis equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehiclechassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such aconversion could be done legally. Another situation recently brought to EPA's attention involves the offering for sale of used foreign-builtengines. These engines are often not covered by a certified configuration for any vehicle sold in thiscountry. In such a case, there is no way to install such an engine legally. EPA has recently broughtenforcement actions against certain parties who have violated the tampering prohibition by performingillegal engine switches. It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehiclematches exactly to anv certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis, there aresome substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement. Vehicle chassis and enginedesigns of one vehicle manufacturer are very distinct from those of another, such that it is generally notpossible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified
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3configuration. Therefore, practical considerations will generally limit engine switches to installation ofanother engine which was certified to be used in that same make and model (or a "twin" of that makeand model, e.g., Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Calais). In addition, converting a vehicle into adifferent certified configuration is likely to be very difficult, and the cost may prove prohibitive. B. State LawsMany states also have statutes or regulations prohibiting tampering in general. Most of these lawsspecifically prohibit tampering by individuals. A few specifically prohibit engine switching, usingprovisions similar to those stated in EPA's policy. To determine the state law in any given state, thestate's Attorney General's office should be contacted. In addition, many states have state or localantitampering inspection programs which require a periodic inspection of vehicles in that area, todetermine the integrity of emission control systems. Many programs have established policies forvehicles which have been engine switched. While EPA does not require these programs to fail engineswitched vehicles which are not in compliance with federal policy, the Agency does stronglyrecommend that these programs set their requirements so as to be consistent with the federal law. Stateor local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated partiesinto believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
No,you can't make a 4bt run cleaner than the gas engine it relaces.I work for a manufacturer and all the engines are running all kinds of egr and electronic equipment to pass the new standards.they even have a large expensive electronically controlled converter.However before 02 they didn't have to have anything.I thought compliance, would be the year model of engine or vehicle.
 

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I register mine in NC

I have NC plates on my 68 Bronco, with 4BT, in NC.

been register for over three years. :rolleyes:
Whoops, didn't realize there could be a problem. I'm curious, how would the tag agency people even know it has a diesel.

Since it is over 30 years old, I took advantage and did not get the state inspection. Not require, and fills valuable w/s space.

Last year for NC, though, next year it get VA plates.

Wayne
 

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No,you can't make a 4bt run cleaner than the gas engine it relaces.
If that's the case, make sure you ask your EPA guy how Frito Lay and Cummins originally got the federal OK to replace how ever many hundreds or thousands of gas engines with 4BT engines in all of their vans.

Another question, concerning the posting of the laws below, as clipped from the middle of Page 2;

'Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in alight-duty vehicle.'

Does that mean that my installation of my 4BT into my 1961 International is illegal? And if so, why? When I got the truck, it had a perfect running 3.9 liter six cylinder gas powered engine with only 67,000 miles and came with absolutely zero emissions controls. I drove it for a little over 3,000 miles and the very best mileage I ever got out of a single tank of gas was 10.2 mpg, and I never pulled a trailer with it because it didn't have enough power to pull one empty! Now with just over 5,000 miles on the 4BTA install, I have a running average of 19.1 mpg including all miles dragging my trailer behind me. With fuel mileage being my only measure of efficiency, I have doubled the efficiency of my truck. Improved efficiency equals using less fuel which equals fewer emissions, not to mention that diesel emissions are not as harmful as gasoline emissions. Why would it be illegal for someone to increase the efficiency and lower the emissions of their vehicle?

Also, if my installation is illegal and this quote is true,
The EPA laws are for the whole country,if the state is getting federal money they're applicable.
then ALL of our installations are illegal.
 

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If that's the case, make sure you ask your EPA guy how Frito Lay and Cummins originally got the federal OK to replace how ever many hundreds or thousands of gas engines with 4BT engines in all of their vans
I think vehicles over a certain GVWR were exempt when they did those swaps
 

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If that's the case, make sure you ask your EPA guy how Frito Lay and Cummins originally got the federal OK to replace how ever many hundreds or thousands of gas engines with 4BT engines in all of their vans.

Another question, concerning the posting of the laws below, as clipped from the middle of Page 2;

'Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in alight-duty vehicle.'

Does that mean that my installation of my 4BT into my 1961 International is illegal? And if so, why?
I think you're OK on yours, due to the age of the vehicle:

... The Clean Air Act (Act) requires vehicle and engine manufacturers to certify that their vehicles will meet federal emission standards for the model year in which they were built, and they design and install the systems and components necessary to meet those standards. Federal emissions standards have applied to motor vehicles since 1968.
...
But, you might still run afoul of earlier legislation / legislation that was current at the time of the vehicle's manufacture. There were prior "Clean Air Acts" that set out to determine the causes of smog and to control it, and "visible smoke laws" that go back to the 40's.

California has been in the fore-front of smog stuff (gee, I wonder why) and what they establish pretty much gets rubber-stamped by the Federal EPA. They set the first emissions standards for CO2, NOx, etc. in 1959, and made the first vehicle pollution control device requirement for vehicles sold in California in 1961. So, if you live there.. Better look to something from the 30's, or heavier than 8500LB up until 95. (And you'd better not go newer than the EPA certification years of the engine, so for my CPL 857, that'd be up to 1991, I think..)



I think vehicles over a certain GVWR were exempt when they did those swaps
Well, not exempt, but in the correct classification.

In all states but California, vehicles over 8500LB but less than 19,500LB GVWR are considered "Light Heavy-Duty" vehicles and are therefore allowed to have an engine that is EPA certified as a "Light Heavy-Duty" engine. In California, it's over 14,500LB and less than 19,500LB GVWR. The EPA tags I've seen class the 4BT as a "Light Heavy-Duty".

There's a stinger in that, too.. Since 2004, if the vehicle is for personal transportation (so, SUV, passenger VAN) and up to 10,000LB GVWR, then it's considered a "Medium-Duty Passenger Vehicle" and has to conform to LIGHT DUTY (read: 1/2 ton pickup, car, etc.) emissions standards.

So, the P30, at 9000LB GVW (and most of the ones converted are model years prior to 1995, from what I've seen) is a "Light Heavy-Duty" vehicle and is allowed the 4BT under that classification.


More info, if you're interested: http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/hd.html
 

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If that's the case, make sure you ask your EPA guy how Frito Lay and Cummins originally got the federal OK to replace how ever many hundreds or thousands of gas engines with 4BT engines in all of their vans.

Another question, concerning the posting of the laws below, as clipped from the middle of Page 2;

'Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in alight-duty vehicle.'

Does that mean that my installation of my 4BT into my 1961 International is illegal? And if so, why? When I got the truck, it had a perfect running 3.9 liter six cylinder gas powered engine with only 67,000 miles and came with absolutely zero emissions controls. I drove it for a little over 3,000 miles and the very best mileage I ever got out of a single tank of gas was 10.2 mpg, and I never pulled a trailer with it because it didn't have enough power to pull one empty! Now with just over 5,000 miles on the 4BTA install, I have a running average of 19.1 mpg including all miles dragging my trailer behind me. With fuel mileage being my only measure of efficiency, I have doubled the efficiency of my truck. Improved efficiency equals using less fuel which equals fewer emissions, not to mention that diesel emissions are not as harmful as gasoline emissions. Why would it be illegal for someone to increase the efficiency and lower the emissions of their vehicle?

Also, if my installation is illegal and this quote is true,

then ALL of our installations are illegal.
The chip trucks get new titles when they do the conversions, the last vans I had the old title # on top of the title and when I did research it was a gaser and the new title was a diesel ,so there might be a around that but it also depends on where you live .

The other thing you might be able to due is send for a new title ,like when you build a kit car ?
 

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The chip trucks get new titles when they do the conversions, the last vans I had the old title # on top of the title and when I did research it was a gaser and the new title was a diesel ,so there might be a around that but it also depends on where you live .

The other thing you might be able to due is send for a new title ,like when you build a kit car ?
I'm digging around right now to see what is needed to classify a vehicle as "special construction" or "homebuilt" for the purposes of registration. In the vehicle inspections in TN (currently only in a few counties in / around Nashville and Memphis.. give it time and we'll have it here in Knox Vegas, too..) there is allowance made for such vehicles, and then they go by the year / type of engine used. Also, if a fuel switch has occurred, then testing / inspection is done based on current fuel. (Also, if the engine is newer than the vehicle, then the standards followed are those of the year of the engine, otherwise must pass for year of vehicle.)

The $64K question is: What happens if you convert in a state where it's legit, get a title that shows Diesel as fuel, then go into one of the "in$pection $tate$" and try to register??
 

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NC Reg & Title Manual

There may be a few nuggets here ..

http://www.ncdot.org/dmv/vehicle_services/registrationtitling/titlemanual/download/NCTitleManual.pdf

FYI, it's 10 MB.

I think some sections are out of date, but most should apply. I couldn't find anything specific to engine swaps being illegal.

There's a section on motor changes, and states a title update is required. So there is a process of swapping your engine. It appears you have to get it inspected, but no mention of what they're "inspecting".

Just for kicks I called my favorite local inspection shop and got the following information ...

He told me that DMV will allow you to switch the registration/title from gas to diesel, but that may require a physical witness of the state to look at your vehicle and verify it is indeed a diesel. After you get the registration and title changed, your home free. There are no emissions checks on diesels (visual or otherwise). One disclaimer, we were talking pre-1996 vehicles. I gave an example of a late 70s truck, where I wanted to swap OEM gas for any diesel. He said, "sure, you should be able to get DMV to change the registration, and then you're good to go".
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Scoutosis,I read over the ncdot manual and couldn,t find any guidelines that's when I asked some friends who own shops in and around charlotte NC.They said go 35 years or older.I thought it was 30.After calling around Raliegh for two weeks,someone gave me inspector Peelers number in Newton.He's the one that comes out and inspects it when you apply for a new title.He was very interested and liked the idea but said he had to check with EPA,after a couple days he called and gave me Paul Gordey's number.The above post are his response.I asked the same question about the step vans.He said they must have had them certified and said he would check.I don't believe they enforce that well,because there are so many already done and on the road.I'm looking for an old scout or bronco so I won't have to worry about annual inspection.He also said you could have the vehicle certified but it would be very expensive.
 

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The info you posted states that swaps are legal when OEM offerred diesel as an option on the same chassis. If you go scout, you can get any Scout II chassis from '71-'80, cause they're all identical (with the exception of the terra/traveler 118" WB models, which are just longer). Diesels (nissan SD33 & 33T) were only offered from '76-'80, so they may get picky on that. It's possible to find a registered scout diesel to start with and avoid the title/reg switch altogether.
 

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Maybe there should be a sticky on this stuff??

I got mine street legal in PA. I just looked at getting it titled/licensed in MD and it looks like it's possible as long as all the original emissions equipment is still installed... Not sure who's bright idea that was, but that's what the person I talked to said.

It makes me want to consider selling it or taking the drivetrain out and putting it in something that is either old enough or was diesel to begin with...ugh. I would consider a fullsize diesel truck, but I built the Durango because it truly fits what i need in a vehicle and wasn't available from a manufacturer. how frustrating...
 
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