[66gaza]

Hi has anyone used a Spicer gearbox on a 4bt? Does anyone have any experience using one, how does it shift? Are they a SAE2 or SAE3? or both?
I appreciate it would need a divorced t/case. can somebody ID this box from this pic? probably a 3053 but which one? or can you not tell without looking closely at the box?

Gaza

 

[exsimguy1]

Pic looks like a 3000 series Spicer. Gas deuces used the 3052 (direct 5th), non-turbo multifuel used the 3053 (direct 5th), and the turbo multifuel used the 3053A (overdrive 5th). Most of the multifuels were upgraded to the 3053A, and were tagged accordingly. Quick check, put tower in 4th gear (over to right and forward) and rotate input shaft one turn. Does output shaft turn less than one turn, or more than one turn. If more than one turn, overdrive 3053A. Easier with top cover removed, the diameter of the input shaft gear will be larger than the first gear on the mainshaft (4th gear normal position) which is now 5th and overdrive. If the input shaft gear is smaller than the 4th gear, the tranny is direct drive 5th. Most parts (other than 4th and 5th gears on main shaft, cluster shaft and input shaft) are interchangeable between all three, including case.
Bell housing is SAE #3, bolts directly to gas deuce, or to multifuel with #3 to #2 adapter ring. SAE #3 does not like clutches above 12" because of diameter of clutch cover. I have numbers for an available 12" Long style clutch that was used in a gas deuce if you need it. With my Isuzu 4BD1, I needed to space the tranny back 1 3/16" from the SAE#3 bell housing for proper depth on clutch and input shaft length.
They shift quite good for a tranny rated at 23K GVW, not as smooth as a NV4500, but certainly not harsh or hard.

Hope this helps.


By the way, my Spicer 3000 series service manual specs 30(cold service) to 50 wt. Motor oil or mineral oil for use in these trannys. It is dated late 1960's. Todays Road Ranger synthetic 50 wt is the present recommended lube. Most 3000 series in deuces burn up 2nd gear as it's rotational speed at hwy speeds is quite high. But military specs 80-90 wt gear oil which conflicts with Spicer. My choice is RR synthetic 50 wt.

 

[66gaza]

Hi, thanks for the info. I have been on garbees site http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/transmission.htm
all spicer 3053 on here are OD versions, The owner of the box in the photo tells me it says 3053 on the tag no A etc so according to you its a non OD. I have asked him to check by putting into 4th and turning I/P and counting rev of O/P but he hasn't got back to me yet. If I buy it I might get back to you on the info about the clutch plate. From what he tells me about the PCD of the bell bolt holes it is a SAE 3. My 4bt came with a SAE 3 and a flywheel but apparantly there are about 30 FWs that cummins use !!!!!!.

Gaza

 

[exsimguy1]

Yes, Cummins flywheels can be a chore to identify. The gas deuce, and my Isuzu came with the flat normal (if there is a normal) flywheel, similar in appearance to a Ford Truck F700 flwheel. This is not a recessed flywheel as used in some industrial applications, or like a Semi.

Attached find a Chart for SAE patterns.

 

[66gaza]

Hi, thanks for the sae chart. did you mean 5th when you were talking about finding out which gear ratio it was? How did you operate the clutch? I understand they are rated at 23k gvw but how much torque can it take? also if it has a SAE 3 bell then does that limit it to a 12" clutch?

Gaza

 

[exsimguy1]

When checking for overdrive, put the transmission in the normal "4th" position (to the right and forward). This will be 5th in an overdrive trans, or 4th in a direct trans.

The deuce uses a splined arm on the clutch shaft on the driver (US) side, it can be clocked anywhere it will clear the trans. A few bell cranks (depending on your pedal setup) later, and you have a working clutch. If you go hydraulic, a matching (by application) master and slave setup is a must, then just mount your slave to work that same arm described earlier. With the pressure plate from a gas deuce (or similar) you can use the release bearing as is. You may have to fabricate a pilot bearing to mount in your flywheel or crank tail (depending on diameter of each). Snout of 3053A is 3/4" diameter. Bearing or bushing depending on taste. Lots of options with access to a lathe.

I can't find it right now, but somewhere I have seen the torque rating of the 3053A at 400 ftlbs. They have been used behind 6BT's. Anybody that can, please confirm this, I will keep looking.

My SAE #3 housing (Isuzu 4BD1) will barely accept the outside diameter of a 13" pressure plate. The flywheel would not accept the 13 7/8" bolt pattern as it would have been within 1/8" of hitting the starter ring gear pressed to the flywheel. My choice was a Long style (Ford truck syle) 12" pressure plate with a button style solid hub disc. It is readily available from Ft Wayne Clutch.

 

[LincTex]

It might come with an SAE3 adapter and then it will bolt upto a spicer 3053 then a flywheel & clutch & your done.

That sounds like it would cost a LOT.

 

[66gaza]

That sounds like it would cost a LOT.

Well that depends, if his engine comes with a SAE bellhousing which if its from an industrial application it probably does. Then a rebuilt or used spicer 3053 can be had for a reasonable amount then I think the clutch and or flywheel is freightliner FL70 stuff but ask nhdiesel about this as hes doing it I think. Both my cummins engines came with SAE bellhousings the 6BT with a SAE2 and the 4BT with a SAE3 so I could also bolt an Allison AT545 up if I wanted . BTW my NOS spicer was £25 and the SAE bellhousing came with the engine. Any 6bt from a school bus will have a SAE flywheel housing too.

Gaza

 

[LincTex]

BTW my NOS spicer was £25

Is that a typo? If not, then you "STOLE" it! (found in a little old lady's barn?)

You can't even buy junk transmission cores around here that cheap. I paid $100 USD for a rebuildable Ford "pan-fill" C4 core three years ago for my race car.

Nearly ANY "common" trans (car, pickup) in usable shape is at least $300 around here. When you start using curse words like Eaton, Spicer and Allison you know full well you are talking at least $1000

 

[66gaza]

Is that a typo? If not, then you "STOLE" it! (found in a little old lady's barn?)

You can't even buy junk transmission cores around here that cheap. I paid $100 USD for a rebuildable Ford "pan-fill" C4 core three years ago for my race car.

Nearly ANY "common" trans (car, pickup) in usable shape is at least $300 around here. When you start using curse words like Eaton, Spicer and Allison you know full well you are talking at least $1000

Well I wasn't sure if I was going to use it but for £25 I thought it was worth the risk:grinpimp: I remember reading somewhere that nhdiesel paid $73 for his. Hopefully nhdiesel will chime in and give us all a better insight. To me it would be ideal as he only wants 2wd. BTW I bought the spicer off ebay in the UK and it didn't cost me anything for shipping as I had a friend who lived very near to where it was pick it up and he dropped it off for me when he was passing a few months later.

Gaza

 

[LincTex]

I remember reading somewhere that nhdiesel paid $73 for his.

That's cheap. You won't find deals like that in Texas. Everyone wants an arm and a leg for everything here.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

Is that a typo? If not, then you "STOLE" it! (found in a little old lady's barn?)

You can't even buy junk transmission cores around here that cheap. I paid $100 USD for a rebuildable Ford "pan-fill" C4 core three years ago for my race car.

Nearly ANY "common" trans (car, pickup) in usable shape is at least $300 around here. When you start using curse words like Eaton, Spicer and Allison you know full well you are talking at least $1000

where's elm mott? I can sell you as many C4 cores as you WANT for $100 a throw! I used to get them for $40 a piece in the Dallas area

 

[LincTex]

I used to get them for $40 a piece in the Dallas area

Used to. Anymore, all I can find are 80's era AOD's.
Seems like the C4's have pretty much disappeared, and the 80's era stuff is getting rare, too. Wreckers don't want to keep anything over 20 years old.

The one I have now is good, but I'm getting out of drag racing......

 

[nhdiesel]

My 3053a was $76 from govliquidation.com, and it was a fresh, never used reman. I did, however, have to drive from N.H. to Chicago to get it, but it was a fun ride. I got a flywheel and flywheel housing from people on here for cheap money (aprox. $100 each) and I bought a clutch cheap off ebay (brand new).

The 3053a comes with a SAE #3 pattern, but can also be adapted to some other patterns pretty easily. I just drove a Deuce home from PA Friday and I found that the Spicers shift quite well.

Jim

 

[66gaza]

My 3053a was $76 from govliquidation.com, and it was a fresh, never used reman. I did, however, have to drive from N.H. to Chicago to get it, but it was a fun ride. I got a flywheel and flywheel housing from people on here for cheap money (aprox. $100 each) and I bought a clutch cheap off ebay (brand new).

The 3053a comes with a SAE #3 pattern, but can also be adapted to some other patterns pretty easily. I just drove a Deuce home from PA Friday and I found that the Spicers shift quite well.

Jim

Jim, do you have any pics and more info on this? Possibly start a new thread I certainly would be interested as I has a 4BT and a spicer 3053 and not sure exactly what clutch flywheel I need.
Sorry if this bit is off topic BobS.

Gaza

 

[Diesel nut]

All right guys thanx for the info, looks like im going to have to do some more searching around for one of these engines at an automotive or truck junkyard. Would the 3053 trans be a 5 speed? How big a deal would it be to put it in a f150?

 

[LincTex]

Here is what a 4BT from a tractor looks like....there are mounts on the sides of the bell...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250175860792

The spicer 3053 install can be found here:
http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/drivetrain/154_0509_spicer_3053a_transmission/index.html

It is a big and HEAVY set-up (that flywheel is massive!)
That flywheel in the article only fits the chevy crank, tho

 

[66gaza]

Would the 3053 trans be a 5 speed? How big a deal would it be to put it in a f150?

It is 230lbs, if you used a sae3 bell it is slightly smaller than a dodge. The one in the jpmagazine used a truck bell and flywheel and yes that one is huge.

Gaza

 

[nhdiesel]

The 3053a is 5 speed with overdrive. If I remember correctly, the 3053 is 5 speed without OD. You can get aluminum or cast iron flywheel housings in SAE #3 pattern. For a lighter pickup, try for the aluminum. The transmission is very heavy, but really not a lot heavier than an NV4500. I have both here (3053a for my Ram and a NV4500 for the Durango), and there really isn't a ton of difference. The 3053a is more of a box shape, where the NV4500 has a lot more contours, so the NV4500 looks smaller...but the overall width, length, and height aren't far off.

I wouldn't hesitate to put the 3053a into a 1/2 ton. If our Durango was 2 wheel drive, I'd use it in that. My Ram is 4x4, but I have the wheelbase to use a divorced transfer case. I picked up a Ford NP205 for that.

Jim

 

[IHWillys]

...
By the way, my Spicer 3000 series service manual specs 30(cold service) to 50 wt. Motor oil or mineral oil for use in these trannys. It is dated late 1960's. Todays Road Ranger synthetic 50 wt is the present recommended lube. Most 3000 series in deuces burn up 2nd gear as it's rotational speed at hwy speeds is quite high. But military specs 80-90 wt gear oil which conflicts with Spicer. My choice is RR synthetic 50 wt.

90W gear oil is the same viscosity as 50 weight motor oil. A different rating system between gear oils and motor oils gives the different numbers. It can be difficult to find 90W without the EP additives(GL-1 IIRC). The EP additives are what Spicer doesn't want in the trans due to corrosion of yellow metals. Atleast, this is what I've come to understand, I may be mistaken and I'm not a lubricant engineer.

Ken