Cummins 4BT & Diesel Conversions Forums banner
421 - 440 of 835 Posts
Discussion starter · #421 ·
New guy to this forum being reading and taking notes , i have a 94 12V thinking of putting a Ally behind it i got a 2100MH from a buddy that had it on a 99 PWS , really would like the 6SPD for the double OD, the truck has a NV4500 with a US gear second OD , just pull the engine out to rebuild it, the Ally is 03/05 date out of a topkick original i belive can this be set up as a 6spd with correct TCM and harness VB or is better look around for a 6spd 1000 any advise will be great....
Look around for a 6 speed.
 
Hi question for Max. Do you know if the J-1939 connector on a 2004 cummins out of a Dodge would provide the right throttle iinformation for the control system discussed here. The connector is located on the drivers side of the engine just above and rear of the computer. Does it matter what cab style the body control module comes out of. how sifferent for crew cabs and std cans? Are you still able to bench test a system? Thank you Brian
 
Discussion starter · #423 ·
Hi question for Max. Do you know if the J-1939 connector on a 2004 cummins out of a Dodge would provide the right throttle iinformation for the control system discussed here.
Not for a GM 6 speed TCM. Although both are CAN bus systems, J1939 runs at 250kbps, while GMLAN operates at 500kbps.

The connector is located on the drivers side of the engine just above and rear of the computer. Does it matter what cab style the body control module comes out of. how sifferent for crew cabs and std cans? Are you still able to bench test a system? Thank you Brian
BCM shouldn't matter, as long as it is out of an 8.1L truck. DMax truck BCMs may work also. I am no longer able to bench test a system since I no longer have a harness or TCM. All that stuff got sold along with my Ally.
 
Hi Max

Thanks for the quick response! This wull be my second Allison project. Put a 1000 series 5 speed brhind a built Dodge V-10in 2002. Fought tooth ans nail with Allison to give me a operating program. The first one was so rough shifting that it nearly tore out the driveshaft they gave me one more which was only slightly better. However all the functions such as OD lockout and t/H worked. Lived with it for three or four years. Than Fleece started doing Allison conversions and said he could make the computers shift like one in a Duramax, with the promise they would keep re doing the programs until right. At the time wanted $500.00 plus tcm. So I tried it! Did get improved shifts but all other functions quit working such as t/h. Called them on it ans they said well we now charge way more than that to program and did not honor the send it back until right so feel a little Fleeced by Fleece.

I have the skills to do alot of wiring as have built many street rods and other projects. But the newer stuff with the can bus etc leave me a little dazed sometimes. Obvously you have way more experience and knowledge in this area than I. Have read and re read the whole fifteen pages so far and am catching many things but still questions.

One issue is I have been trying to get into the gmupfitter electrical diagrams both with the link you provided and by entering the home page. When I open up the link it just goes to a white page and does not download. Going in the home page cannot navigate to any electrical. Being able to see these would be most useful.

On the twisted can bus wire you said several times they have to be terminated with a resister across them at each end. I am clear that the end at the diagnostic plug has to be terminated but when they run from one module such as the tcm to the body control module that is taken care of inside?

Plan as of now is to start gathering pieces have the tcm flashed for the 8.1, think I can get a p/u harness and modify as needed. I will use a Dodge shift lever with the t/h button and tap shift. Saw in your video that you were using a EFI Live do you own one? Reason is once I get to the stage of having the harness together and tcm flashed would like to send it iut and have tested and the Basic manupilation of the tcm that you walked JJWPuller through. That would give me a running system. Once had it drrivable can take it to a guy to do any final tweeking but he is about an hour and a half from me.

Again thank you for your time. Brian
 
Discussion starter · #425 ·
Hi Max

Thanks for the quick response! This wull be my second Allison project. Put a 1000 series 5 speed brhind a built Dodge V-10in 2002. Fought tooth ans nail with Allison to give me a operating program. The first one was so rough shifting that it nearly tore out the driveshaft they gave me one more which was only slightly better. However all the functions such as OD lockout and t/H worked. Lived with it for three or four years. Than Fleece started doing Allison conversions and said he could make the computers shift like one in a Duramax, with the promise they would keep re doing the programs until right. At the time wanted $500.00 plus tcm. So I tried it! Did get improved shifts but all other functions quit working such as t/h. Called them on it ans they said well we now charge way more than that to program and did not honor the send it back until right so feel a little Fleeced by Fleece.
You ain't the only person I've heard that from. Go on over to DuramaxDiesels.com and look up a guy with the screen name DuraToTheMax. He can hook you up with the TCM flashed how you want it. I no longer have access to TIS2WEB, so I can no longer reflash the operating system in Allison TCMs. Note that changing the OS and changing the calibration are two different things: anyone with EFI Live can change the calibration (i.e. shift points, speedo cal, converter operation, etc), but you need access to GM's TIS2WEB and an interface such as the CANdi in order to change a DMax TCM OS to an 8.1 OS.

I have the skills to do alot of wiring as have built many street rods and other projects. But the newer stuff with the can bus etc leave me a little dazed sometimes. Obvously you have way more experience and knowledge in this area than I. Have read and re read the whole fifteen pages so far and am catching many things but still questions.

One issue is I have been trying to get into the gmupfitter electrical diagrams both with the link you provided and by entering the home page. When I open up the link it just goes to a white page and does not download. Going in the home page cannot navigate to any electrical. Being able to see these would be most useful.
For the 5 speed:
http://www.gmupfitter.com/publicat/2004_BB/2003_Beyond_LD_Electric_CK.pdf

For the 6 speed:
http://www.gmupfitter.com/publicat/2007_BB/2007 CK Pickup Elect_D7.pdf

Note that the 06 is a bit different, so these schematics lack a few important details (i.e. the engine speed sensor in the bellhousing, which is deleted on 07-up models). Post 50 in this thread has the complete wiring chart for the 6 speed Ally using an 06 8.1L. If you hook it up according to the chart, it'll work. Trust me ;)

On the twisted can bus wire you said several times they have to be terminated with a resister across them at each end. I am clear that the end at the diagnostic plug has to be terminated but when they run from one module such as the tcm to the body control module that is taken care of inside?
The CAN bus seems to be a sticking point for most people. It uses an unshielded twisted pair, similar to USB or Ethernet, which means a pair of wires tightly twisted together. Any devices connected to the bus are basically spliced in, so the bus runs from device to device to device. At each end of this bus, there needs to be 120 ohms of resistance in parallel with the device or connector that it is connected to. I always put the TCM on one end, and it happens to have a built-in 120 ohm resistor that you can use by connecting pin 26 to pin 6 using a short length of wire. Thus, you only need a discrete 120 ohm resistor at the other end, which is usually the ODB II connector in most stand-alone installs.



Plan as of now is to start gathering pieces have the tcm flashed for the 8.1, think I can get a p/u harness and modify as needed. I will use a Dodge shift lever with the t/h button and tap shift. Saw in your video that you were using a EFI Live do you own one? Reason is once I get to the stage of having the harness together and tcm flashed would like to send it iut and have tested and the Basic manupilation of the tcm that you walked JJWPuller through. That would give me a running system. Once had it drrivable can take it to a guy to do any final tweeking but he is about an hour and a half from me.

Again thank you for your time. Brian
I no longer have a harness setup to do any TCM testing. Sorry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: XRyan
Hi Max

To clarify I will ask you if I get my harness and tcm and bcm with the 8.1 in the tcm san you than test everything? Like I said the can bus system shakes my confidense. Was finally able to get the diagrams to down load. Thank you! I do not have a gm shift handle at this time. I do have the Dodge handle and it only has two wires with the tow/haul button and up down button. Looking at the gm diagrams looks like three wires come out of the handle or am I misssing something? The reason I want to use the Dodge handle is it fits the dodge steering column. Could possibly make the gm work. My thought on the can bus are to run from the obl to the bcm and end in the tcm. Sound right?

Thank You Brian
 
Max
I have a 2003 F550 with a 2005 Cummins. I'm wondering if cruise control will work with a 6 speed swap? Meaning will the tranny downshift when going up a hill if it's not seeing TPS from the pedal? When I monitor TPS with the app Torque it shows input when I move the pedal, but not when in CC. If I push the pedal while in CC it only reads the pedal. So going down the highway with CC the ECM is giving fuel but not showing on the TPS, like if it's all in the ECM. The 05's have the pedal TPS not the APPS that is on 03-04's. How can I get this to work?
 
Hi Max

Have another question not directly related to the Allsion. Working on a 04 cummins conversion using the 04 dash and wiring system it uses both a two wire can bus system and a single wire data link between modules and radio ampflier etc. My question ia about the data link does it have to be terminated. I am not using the stock radio or amp. The adaptor harness for the stereo does not include anything for the data link. One other question know of anyone who can reprogram a dash module for the same application. Apparently once it has the origional vin# it cannot be used with another ecm with a different vin. Trying to have to buy a new dash module.

Thank You Brian
 
So, after reading through this entire thread, I want to say thanks to max, and all who contributed.

I see where several folks talked about resplining the ally output shaft for a 32 spline gm, what are the possibilities of machining it to a 31 spline ford? Then possibly bolting up a ford 205? Even if you had to redrill the face of the 205 for proper clocking and all...just a thought, I don't know what it'd cost to have a input resplined. It's been forever since ive had a set of axle shafts resplined, but I think it was only like 100-150 bucks or so. if this was covered somewhere in the last 15 pages and I missed it, sorry. Thanks again.

Edit: after double checking, the ally output is 1.475" diameter, a ford 31 spline output is 1.325", so unless there's something I'm missing. I don't see why you couldn't turn down, then repline the ally output to a 31 spline ford pretty easily. Thatd make it almost a bolt up deal, right?
 
I am ready to start on a wiring harness for my 06 allison 6 speed. I've read through this thread multiple times and have been looking for posts with part numbers and or information for the connecters, pins, crimp tool, tps, and correct tcm that I would need to put together a harness and controller. I found the tcm connecter, (post # 49 88988938, but I couldnt find any part numbers that reference the trans connecter or the speed sensors. Also on the pins for the connectors, I went on mouser web site and did a search for the pins, 33001-3304, and I couldnt find anything. I was wondering if it would be a good thing to have a post at this point in this thread to summarize all the components, suppliers and part numbers for the parts and tools to put a wiring harness/controller together for both the 5 and 6 speed transmissions?
 
Yup that works. O and I came across the connector info for the trans end. "All VB electricals are passed through the case using a standard GM 20 pin connector, identical to the one used on the late 4l60E's and 4L80E's." That answers that question. So are the speed sensors and connectors the same as the 4L80E stuff? Also are the the same wire terminal ends used on the trans connectors as the tcm connector?
 
Discussion starter · #433 ·
Yup that works. O and I came across the connector info for the trans end. "All VB electricals are passed through the case using a standard GM 20 pin connector, identical to the one used on the late 4l60E's and 4L80E's." That answers that question.
Same connector, but all pins are populated. Note that some or all MD Allisons use a different connector (24 pin twist-lock), so beware when shopping for an Ally from a MD truck. I don't know how available that connector is, nor the cost. However, I do know that a standard GM 6 speed internal wiring harness will install in a MD trans, so it would be a simple matter to convert a 24 pin Ally to a 20 pin connector.

So are the speed sensors and connectors the same as the 4L80E stuff? Also are the the same wire terminal ends used on the trans connectors as the tcm connector?
Yes, the Ally speed sensors are identical to those used in the 4L80E. FWIW, last time I bought one it was significantly cheaper at the Allison shop vs GM. Ditto for filters and other parts.

The GM trans connector is a Delphi Micro-pack 100W type. The female terminals used in it are the same as the ones used in the Delphi PCM's connectors (at least, earlier PCMs like the 0411... not sure about the E38's and other later PCMs). The connectors for the speed sensors are Delphi unshrouded 3.5mm GT-150 male connectors with female terminals.

Here is the connector kit for the speed sensors: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/109_130_132/products_id/852

Here is the connector kit for the trans. When you order it, make a note to them that it is for an Allison and you need terminals for all 20 positions: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/109_130_132/products_id/1495

OBD-II connector is here: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/109_151/products_id/1562

Those plus the TCM connector are the minimum needed. I use other connectors in various places to make my harnesses more modular, but it adds to the cost. You also need wire, of course. If you use automotive TXL (crosslinked polyethylene, higher rated temp) wire you will find 20 gauge fits through the rubber seals better due to the thickness of insulation. If you use aircraft Tefzel-insulated wire you can run 18ga due to the thinner insulation.

The TPS and it's connector are available from your friendly CAT dealer.
 
Hi Max

I know you are a busy man but oxman and I had a few questions that seemed to be overlooked. Hope I have not done anything to offend you. If you would rather not have the business of testing and setting up things I can understand. And I do appreciate the time you have already spent answering my and others questions. I have thought about the issue oxman brought up. In my caxe I am using the cummins tps on the intake I wanted to use the internal cruise ecm function. But I think that I should use an aftermarket cruise hooked to the tps with the cat tps hooked to that. This way the trans will see the tp with cruise.

Brian
 
After talking with people like Chris (Supersonic) who has a 6 speed hooked to a 08 6.7 and reading through this thread again I have come to the conclusion that the cruise control will not work in my setup, because of the different communications that the 06 TCM uses.

Chris said that he is using EFI to get the 08 Cummins ECM to communicate with the 06 TCM. He has everything working besides defuel. Something about the limitations of EFI.

I think I'm going to go the Destroked route on the electronics and Howard's for the SAE 3. Scott's controller uses a PCS module to emulate a Duramax which gives you everything but tap shift. He says that he is working on 5-6 speed and tap shift. Of course this is the more expensive way, but it works 100% besides defueling. And since the 05 ECM is not capable of the defueling I don't think that it will be a possibility running the 05 electronics.

The reason I'm not going to use Scotts adapters is because it puts the starter on the passenger side which would clutter my twin turbos also the block off plate on the top of the block for my coolant bypass would be interfering with his adapter plate.

So I guess my new question is can I take an original 6 speed and take it apart to put it all in a 5 speed besides of course the valve body and the switch? Basically are the cases for 5 speeds and 6 speeds identical just different parts in it?
 
I need one question answered why is someny guys worried about defueling.mine shifts fine.the medium duty that were behind 12v and cats don't defuel only the duramax ones do.


Dale
 
Discussion starter · #437 ·
Hi Max

I know you are a busy man but oxman and I had a few questions that seemed to be overlooked. Hope I have not done anything to offend you. If you would rather not have the business of testing and setting up things I can understand. And I do appreciate the time you have already spent answering my and others questions. I have thought about the issue oxman brought up. In my caxe I am using the cummins tps on the intake I wanted to use the internal cruise ecm function. But I think that I should use an aftermarket cruise hooked to the tps with the cat tps hooked to that. This way the trans will see the tp with cruise.

Brian
Yes, the Cat TPS must see the throttle position during cruise in order to shift properly.

After talking with people like Chris (Supersonic) who has a 6 speed hooked to a 08 6.7 and reading through this thread again I have come to the conclusion that the cruise control will not work in my setup, because of the different communications that the 06 TCM uses.

Chris said that he is using EFI to get the 08 Cummins ECM to communicate with the 06 TCM. He has everything working besides defuel. Something about the limitations of EFI.

I think I'm going to go the Destroked route on the electronics and Howard's for the SAE 3. Scott's controller uses a PCS module to emulate a Duramax which gives you everything but tap shift. He says that he is working on 5-6 speed and tap shift. Of course this is the more expensive way, but it works 100% besides defueling. And since the 05 ECM is not capable of the defueling I don't think that it will be a possibility running the 05 electronics.

The reason I'm not going to use Scotts adapters is because it puts the starter on the passenger side which would clutter my twin turbos also the block off plate on the top of the block for my coolant bypass would be interfering with his adapter plate.

So I guess my new question is can I take an original 6 speed and take it apart to put it all in a 5 speed besides of course the valve body and the switch? Basically are the cases for 5 speeds and 6 speeds identical just different parts in it?
Defuel has nothing to do with EFI Live limitations. It needs communication with the ECM. Scott has been saying he will have a 6 speed setup working for years now, and it still hasn't materialized. The 5 speed ECM is fully capable of defuel, and it does defuel in the stock GM configuration. In fact, the 5 speed TCM should plug right into the Cummins CAN bus and work, since they are both 250kbps J1939. A MD 5 speed TCM definitely works, since it is a stock configuration in Cummins-engined MD trucks. It shifts like a GM TCM locked in T/H mode though, and it cannot be reprogrammed with EFI Live, so you would need a friend at an Allison dealer to change shift points and such if needed.

I need one question answered why is someny guys worried about defueling.mine shifts fine.the medium duty that were behind 12v and cats don't defuel only the duramax ones do.


Dale
You don't need defuel until you get to a certain power level. At that point the clutches cannot hand-off fast enough, and you will get a C2-C3 tie-up. Not to mention it gets progressively harder on the clutches.
 
Discussion starter · #439 ·
Defuel has nothing to do with EFI Live limitations. It needs communication with the ECM. Scott has been saying he will have a 6 speed setup work ing for years now, and it still hasn't materialized. The 5 speed ECM is fully capable of defuel, and it does defuel in the stock GM configuration. In fact, the 5 speed TCM should plug right into the Cummins CAN bus and work, since they are both 250kbps J1939. A MD 5 speed TCM definitely works, since it is a stock configuration in Cummins-engined MD trucks. It shifts like a GM TCM locked in T/H mode though, and it cannot be reprogrammed with EFI Live, so you would need a friend at an Allison dealer to change shift points and such if needed.
Defueling has everything to do with EFI's limitations for an 08 Cummins "ECM". For some reason he can't get into that part of the Cummins ECM in order to communicate with the 6 speed TCM.

I have read of I few people running Dstroked 5 speed electronics with Suncoast or Fleece 5-6 speed conversions, because it is a TCM swap out.
 
421 - 440 of 835 Posts