Cummins 4BT & Diesel Conversions Forums banner
81 - 100 of 835 Posts
MaxPF, any updates on your project? You said earlier that you had sucessfully bench tested your TCM. Could you share what wiring diagram you used? I'm down to the point where I need to decide if I want to use an Allison or keep my Getrag. I want to make sure the 6 speed version will work before I start buying parts to be able to mock up the truck. I'll echo bonesfab's post, it's my daily driver so it has to work, what does it take? -Chuck
 
Discussion starter · #82 · (Edited)
Don't post much here but need info on this swap. I have a 12valve in a 73 crew cab 4x4. It has a 4l80e in it now. I have a 5-speed allison and just need to figure out the electronics. I am going to run a np205 on it and will get a shaft made or a coupler. I aquired a 29 spline male input with a coupler from a earlier Dodge. The splines fit but they are a little loose. I think it would roll the splines if I run it.. I would love to have a six speed if the controls can work. Its my daily driver so its gotta work. So what does it take and how much does it cost?? Thanks Jim
MaxPF, any updates on your project? You said earlier that you had sucessfully bench tested your TCM. Could you share what wiring diagram you used? I'm down to the point where I need to decide if I want to use an Allison or keep my Getrag. I want to make sure the 6 speed version will work before I start buying parts to be able to mock up the truck. I'll echo bonesfab's post, it's my daily driver so it has to work, what does it take? -Chuck
I'm still getting there. I just recently got the trans put back together, and I have the adapter ring. I just need to get the flexplate done and I will be ready to swap it in.

Yes, the TCM is bench tested and it properly reads the PWM throttle inputs that I sent it.

Here's what is needed to make it work:

1 - 6 speed GM pickup (not MD) TCM. I know the A40 and A46 will work. Not sure about the A50. The MD TCM can be used, but unless I am mistaken you will only get 5 gears and none of the cool features.

2 - PWM throttle. I am using a PIC microcontroller to generate the PWM throttle signal. I have not tested the CAT TPS module. Whether or not it would work depends on if the low side of the pulse is open drain or high impedance. The input on the Allison TCM has a weak pull-up internally, so it must be grounded in order for it to read it as a true low. If I had one of these TPS's in my grubby mitts to test (without having to spend $110 on it) I could have a better idea on this
Image


3 - wiring harness. A stock GM harness will work, but a few pins may need to be added (i.e., PWM input pins if the harness is out of a DMax truck, ESS inputs for 07-up harnesses).


4 - Engine Speed sensor. I list this because 07-up 6 speeds with the Gm bellhousing do not have an ESS: They get their ESS info from the EMC via the GMLAN bus. If you are switching to an SAE bell, then no problem since they are machined for an ESS. If you are going to use a GM bell, you will need to either get an earlier one that is already machined for the ESS or have your later bell machined.

That is it for a minimum working setup. I guarantee that as long as the TCM is wired to the trans properly and has power and PWM throttle inputs, it will shift properly.

What you WILL NOT have is T/H, tap shift, and 4wd-lo compensation. A compatible (i.e. out of a GM pickup with an Allison) body control module connected to the TCM via HS GMLAN is required for T/H and tap shift. I know ataac has said there is an input on the TCM for the tap shift buttons, but none of my schematics show this. If you have one that does in electronic format I would love to see it :D In any event, the BCM isn't difficult to wire in. It only needs power, ground, the 2 twisted leads for the GMLAN bus (which needs to be terminated on each end with 120 ohms of resistance), the T/H button and the tap shift buttons. The TS buttons both go to a single input on the BCM, and ground the pin through two different resistances.

I am still unsure about the 4WD-lo activation. The signal is fed into the PCM, and my best guess is that it sends a signal over the low speed data link to the BCM, which then forwards it to the TCM via the HS GMLAN. Until I have it up and running I cant test it, but I consider it a low priority at the moment.

Here's the complete schematics for a 2007 GM pickup:http://www.gmupfitter.com/publicat/2007_BB/07_LDCKFS_Elec_D8a.pdfThis is what I used for making my own harness as well as figuring out where certain inputs (i.e. T/H and tap shift) go.

ESS inout pins are shown but not connected on those schematics. They need to be hooked up for a stand alone app.
 
MaxPF,

#2 I may be able to help with. PM me an address and I'll send you a Cat TPS to test and or use.

I'll also see if I can scan the schematic I have from GM of the '06 wiring diagram. I have no way to host pics in order to be able to post it. I'll e-mail it to anyone that wants it once I get it scanned, which will be tomorrow at the earliest, since it is at home and I'm not.
Thanks, Chuck.
 
Discussion starter · #84 ·
MaxPF,

#2 I may be able to help with. PM me an address and I'll send you a Cat TPS to test and or use.
PM incoming.

I'll also see if I can scan the schematic I have from GM of the '06 wiring diagram. I have no way to host pics in order to be able to post it. I'll e-mail it to anyone that wants it once I get it scanned, which will be tomorrow at the earliest, since it is at home and I'm not.
Thanks, Chuck.
If you can email it to me I can host it on my server and link it to this thread.

Also, I realized I didn't include the link to my 07 schematics in my above post. That oversight has been fixed :D
 
If you go to that GMupfitter main page and click on electrical for 2006 light duty full size trucks you get 2003 and beyond Schematic. Page D-133 shows TPS inputs to the Allison TCM. Pins J2-9 and J2-19 are TPS signal and power. Is that where you have your TPS input to the TCM? -Chuck
 
Discussion starter · #86 ·
That is for the 3rd gen TCM. 4th gen TCMs (which the 6 speeds use) are completely different.
 
Discussion starter · #87 ·
So Chuck (ataac_flat04) sent me the schematics for the 06 Chevy trucks.
Image
They are indeed different from the 07 and up, and he was correct about tap shift inputs and 4wd-lo going directly into the TCM bounce Now, whether a later TCM will accept these, or only an 06 OS, I do not know. I had mine flashed for an 06 8.1L, so this should work on my TCM. I do know later OSes still accepted the PWM throttle inputs, which were also no longer used after 06 (even on 06 they were only used on 8.1's), so they probably left the TS and 4-lo inputs functional as well.

It is clear on these schematics that tow/haul goes into the BCM, which then sends the request over either HS GMLAN or the low speed class 2 data link (both are shown connected). So, a BCM is needed if that functionality is desired. In that case, TS could be run into either the BCM or the TCM, whichever is easier in a given vehicle. I like the fact that 4-lo won't need a PCM to work. the BCM is no big deal - it is a fairly small box, cheaply obtained on Ebay, and only needs a half dozen wires connected :D

Chuck, if you have no objections I would like to host those schematics on my server so others can look at them.
 
Discussion starter · #89 · (Edited)
Cool, here it is:
 
Discussion starter · #91 ·
AFAIK the deleted ESS is the only difference.
 
Discussion starter · #92 ·
Well, I got the Cat TPS in today. Not sure if this one is gonna work or not. The first issue to overcome is power: the cat TPS is powered by 8V, which is an oddball voltage. Im gonna see if it will work off of 5V, since the Allison TCM has a 5V output. The second issue is whether the output is active high or not, and whether it is open drain/collector when low. There is also the issue of the input on the Allison TCM, which has a 12V pullup built in. If the output on the Cat TPS has an active high output, then the line will need to be clamped with a zener diode to prevent the TCM from possibly frying the TPS. I also need a mating connector for it, which any MD truck place should have. If i get time I will try to get it fired up on the test bench tomorrow.
 
Discussion starter · #94 ·
I got the TPS fired up on the bench. I tried powering it off of the 5V output on the TCM, but that was a no-go - the 5V output is just a reference voltage, and is too current limited to power the Cat TPS. So, I said heck with it and tried powering it straight from 12V (it is designed to be powered by 8V from the Cat ECM). Well, it worked... no smoke and it didn't get hot. What was interesting was the output amplitude: it was right at 8V. That tells me that it has an internal regulator of some kind, otherwise it would have put out 12V. It makes sense that Cat would build it electrically robust and in such a way that it doesn't feed too much voltage into the ECU even if the supply voltage goes higher than 8V.

Anyway, it's output frequency is 750Hz, and it did it's thing as I turned the input back and forth. The rising and falling edges are very sharp, so it looks like it has an active low side driver. This is necessary to drive the input of the Allison TCM.

If I get time tomorrow I will hook it to the TCM and make sure it works. At this point I see no reason why it won't.
 
Discussion starter · #95 · (Edited)
Success!!!! I hooked the TPS to the TCM, using a diode to prevent the 8V output of the TPS from being applied to the 5V input of the TCM. Worked like a charm. Here's a little video I made showing what it does:


Like I mentioned, I used a diode to block the 8V from being applied to the inputs on the TCM. The inputs have weak 5V pullups, and putting 8V to them could cause damage. Here's a schematic of the TPS to TCM connection:

Image


I only connected it to the "Managed Input" pin for testing, but I am about 99% positive that it needs to be connected to the "Unmanaged Input" pin as well, otherwise the TCM will throw a code and inhibit TC lockup :rasta:

From what I understand, the Unmanaged Torque is the torque being requested by the driver (basically equal to throttle position), while Managed Torque is the torque actually being delivered by the engine. If no torque reduction is enabled they should track each other. Torque reduction on a computer controlled engine could come from a request from the TCM, or from the traction control system, or from the ECM itself due to certain conditions. When that is the case, the torque requested by the driver may be quite different from what is actually being delivered. Since shift speed is dependent on throttle position (unmanaged torque) and shift firmness, trans pressures, and TCC operation are dependent on actual engine output torque, the trans would need to know both for proper operation.

I mentioned in the video that I wasn't sure why the torque readings went negative. Well, thinking about it, this is the actual torque being delivered by the engine. If you are cruising and let off the throttle, the engine torque is now negative - the transmission is driving the engine, rather than the other way around. With that in mind, the readings make sense. Obviously those are not real values. They are just numbers programmed into the TCM to equate to a certain input pulse width.

In the case of a mechanically controlled engine (or an electronic engine with no torque reduction enabled), unmanaged torque and managed torque should always track each other. By connecting the TPS output to both inputs, were faking it. The TCM shoudln't care - it's going to base it's shift firmness off of the managed torque value and adapt to the rest. All that should matter is that the inputs are consistent, which they will be. The only thing we need to do is disable torque management in the TCM, otherwise it will request torque reduction for shifts, and when that doesn't happen it will throw yet another code. Luckily, EFI Live lets us disable TR :D
 
In the case of a mechanically controlled engine (or an electronic engine with no torque reduction enabled), unmanaged torque and managed torque should always track each other.
This is what I was trying to explain the other day (rack sensor), in a mechanical engine, these don't always have the same values. It's entirely possible to have 100% load and 75% throttle (a condition known as torque rise or lugging ability). That may or may not be a concern for a guy adapting a 300 Hp capable transmission to the back of a stock Cummins making 160 Hp, but if anyone has a slightly turned up engine, it may become a problem. Can you hook up another TPS (or a signal generator, it could be a fixed value for this test) to unmanaged torque and feed the two pins different signals and see what happens to line pressure values and shift points? See what happens when TPS is less than load. I don't know what EFI Live will report. -Chuck
 
Discussion starter · #97 ·
I looked at that PM again, and realized I completely misunderstood what you were asking and fubared my answer. NOW I understand :D

I was going to hook up my signal generator anyway to see what PID EFI Live uses for the Unmanaged Torque input. I can see if any other values change, but I am thinking that until it is actually delivering speed signal inputs and pressure switch inputs I won't see any useful info. Doesn't hurt to try though.

This brings up a question of, how does one access the rack itself to hook up a TPS? Keep in mind that the Gen 3 TCMs took the same 2 inputs, but when run behind a mechanically injected engine only a single analog TPS input was used, and the trans would still adapt and shift fine. The Gen 4 TCM also has analog TPS input capability, but I have never seen an OS that actually uses it. Makes sense - by 2006 when the 6 speed and Gen 4 controllers were introduced, every engine it was mated to was electronically controlled. Anyway, I'm betting feeding the same input to both pins will be fine. The Allison adaptive software is quite good at figuring out shift parameters. When guys bomb their DMax trucks, and then put in a modded Allison that has much different timing and pressure needs vs stock, the TCM still learns its way around the underspecified delivered torque and different needed pressure and timing values and delivers good shifts. Granted, shift defueling becomes mandatory after a certain point, and if it isn't right you can get tie-ups on the 3-4 shift, but that doesn't show up until they start running WAY over stock DMax HP levels. I'm not sure what you have in mind,, but I don't see myself running more HP and TQ than what a stock trans can handle since I'm all about reliability.
 
I'm on the same page with you on the power levels, a little over stock, but nothing crazy. All the electronic engines probably send that input a "calculated load" as a PWM signal. After a truck is bombed I don't know if those signals get altered or if they increase and the trans "knows" its now receiving 1000 lb-ft of torque instead of a stock 600, or if it thinks its still getting 600. It probably sees a difference in RPM and turbine speeds and compensates for the extra torque that way (more torque means higher stall, greater difference between those two values). I was just curious how we could send the TCM a "load" signal if we need it. I don't know if it really needs it, but it sure couldn't hurt to have it. The TCM may be able to compensate, up to a point without it, via other means. And who knows, maybe I'm just over thinking it. If it will adapt and run fine, maybe we should let it. -Chuck
 
I don't know how you would adapt a "rack sensor" to the VE or P pump, but on the A Pump (at least the Zexel variant) the rack actually extends past the housing quite a bit.

It lives under a cap that threads out (off?) of the pump main body.

If you wanted to tinker with that it wouldn't be too hard to adapt a linear potontiometer to that cover, and run that through a signal converter to get the PWM signal you would need (I have no idea what range it needs).

Just an idea, making some sort of proximety detecting collar out of that cover (or replacing it with something that was) would be bitchin, but more work than the linear pot. :(

Regardless, you would still have to keep the oil inside the pump (A pump is engine oil lubed, so yes, you have to cap that hole).
 
Discussion starter · #100 ·
I'm on the same page with you on the power levels, a little over stock, but nothing crazy. All the electronic engines probably send that input a "calculated load" as a PWM signal. After a truck is bombed I don't know if those signals get altered or if they increase and the trans "knows" its now receiving 1000 lb-ft of torque instead of a stock 600, or if it thinks its still getting 600. It probably sees a difference in RPM and turbine speeds and compensates for the extra torque that way (more torque means higher stall, greater difference between those two values). I was just curious how we could send the TCM a "load" signal if we need it. I don't know if it really needs it, but it sure couldn't hurt to have it. The TCM may be able to compensate, up to a point without it, via other means. And who knows, maybe I'm just over thinking it. If it will adapt and run fine, maybe we should let it. -Chuck
That's how Im going to play it at this point: Run it and see how it works :D
 
81 - 100 of 835 Posts