Cummins 4BT & Diesel Conversions Forums banner

1 - 20 of 72 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi, so I'm a novice with this performance type of work so excuse any mistakes I might be making and let me know.

I have a 4bt in a jeep yj that I went through this winter. It was in pretty rough shape (out of a bread truck), had everything sent out to get machined and am starting the rebuild. Ordered stock rebuild kit figuring I wasn't going to be going too crazy with it. I did get head studs because some bolts were stretched. Didn't get the head O-ringed mostly because my machine shop guy wanted to avoid it but I don't think it's necessary for what I'm doing. Went with a stock cam, thought with a turbo charged engine it isn't as critical.

For the pump, its the inline P, I've got 4k governor springs (exhaust springs to go with), ground fuel plate, 191 delievery valves, and marine 370 injectors.
Most of the help I've gotten thus far is from a couple buddies that build pulling trucks with the 5.9, along with skimming through the forums. The problem is when it comes to air they're kind of stumped and on here I find a lot of different advice given per application.

Previously I was happy with how the HX-30 performed quick spool, ran good. Unfortunately I didn't have a boost or pyro last summer so I don't know where it was running. I had the pumped turned up, the specifics I'm unsure of but if you mashed it, it'd smoke like a train. I know if you mess with the smoke screw it could be the cause, but still I thought with all this pump work I'm doing I'm going to need more air. (Even if I don't it has some considerable play, not hitting the housing but noticeable).

I originally figured just get the next model up, HX-35 or HY-35. Then I started reading a lot of threads about pros and cons to each, all of a sudden HE-341s are being thrown in. For instance a lot of people are upgrading from an HC-1, that being found on 5.9s would that be an upgrade in my situation? I don't mean to ask the question, what turbo is best for me, but I'm not too familiar with the different models available. I'd prefer to buy one used for 400 or so but I'm in this deep already so performance will outweigh cost. I don't want to have to have some adapter to the manifold (I know most discussed here you don't) and it'd also be nice if the outlet locations/sizes were similar so I don't have to completely redo the plumbing.

Any advise/suggestions is appreciated.
Thanks,
Derek
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,974 Posts
Hi, so I'm a novice with this performance type of work so excuse any mistakes I might be making and let me know.

I have a 4bt in a jeep yj that I went through this winter. It was in pretty rough shape (out of a bread truck), had everything sent out to get machined and am starting the rebuild. Ordered stock rebuild kit figuring I wasn't going to be going too crazy with it. I did get head studs because some bolts were stretched. Didn't get the head O-ringed mostly because my machine shop guy wanted to avoid it but I don't think it's necessary for what I'm doing. Went with a stock cam, thought with a turbo charged engine it isn't as critical.

For the pump, its the inline P, I've got 4k governor springs (exhaust springs to go with), ground fuel plate, 191 delievery valves, and marine 370 injectors.
Most of the help I've gotten thus far is from a couple buddies that build pulling trucks with the 5.9, along with skimming through the forums. The problem is when it comes to air they're kind of stumped and on here I find a lot of different advice given per application.

Previously I was happy with how the HX-30 performed quick spool, ran good. Unfortunately I didn't have a boost or pyro last summer so I don't know where it was running. I had the pumped turned up, the specifics I'm unsure of but if you mashed it, it'd smoke like a train. I know if you mess with the smoke screw it could be the cause, but still I thought with all this pump work I'm doing I'm going to need more air. (Even if I don't it has some considerable play, not hitting the housing but noticeable).

I originally figured just get the next model up, HX-35 or HY-35. Then I started reading a lot of threads about pros and cons to each, all of a sudden HE-341s are being thrown in. For instance a lot of people are upgrading from an HC-1, that being found on 5.9s would that be an upgrade in my situation? I don't mean to ask the question, what turbo is best for me, but I'm not too familiar with the different models available. I'd prefer to buy one used for 400 or so but I'm in this deep already so performance will outweigh cost. I don't want to have to have some adapter to the manifold (I know most discussed here you don't) and it'd also be nice if the outlet locations/sizes were similar so I don't have to completely redo the plumbing.

Any advise/suggestions is appreciated.
Thanks,
Derek
I think with your p-pumped 4BT and a manual trans you will be happiest with twin turbos. No turbo to replace the HX30 is going to be a drop in with little changes. Your HX30 matched with a 60-62mm Compressor Borg warner S300 would prob work really nicely. Maybe the new 63/68 Borg Warner S300 would work well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
784 Posts
Compound it. Use that hx30 over a hx35 or a 341 and get the best of both.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,974 Posts
Compound it. Use that hx30 over a hx35 or a 341 and get the best of both.
On a VE pump engine I would say yes, use the HX35, the HE341 would work well aslo as long as the power needs weren't extravagant. I think the 9cm housing may be a choke point. For a p-pump engine you can easily support alot more power and rpm, so a larger primary would work better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
Initially Id get it back together with the old HX30 - you already know what that's supposed to feel like with your high tech seat-o-the-pants meter, plus you can get some baseline readings (including pyro) and sort out the smoke question. From there you can upgrade incrementally to test each change. If you must stick with a single, the HE341 is probably the next logical step up (recently, some would say the HE221W but good luck finding one), I expect the 6BT H1C, HY35, HX35 will still be too large as a single, even with a P-pump.

More than likely with your listed mods & build direction, you'd be happier with compounds. With that said, agree the HX30W over HX35 hybrid or HX40 should work well. BW turbos are favored by aftermarket and the performance crowd, but are more expensive on average than Holset turbos, both new and used. Of coarse, if you've decided on compounds, then you've just blown your budget anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
He stated above that he didn't really want to redo the plumbing, so twins would probably be out of the question.
Little side track, but do you have marine pistons to go with your marine injectors? Or is the spray angle corrected?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,638 Posts
Little side track, but do you have marine pistons to go with your marine injectors? Or is the spray angle corrected?
Good point, didn't think about that. Incorrect spray pattern for your piston could cause hot and smoky.

Guys on cumminsforum.com say the marine injectors spray outside the piston bowl and run very hot and smokey.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for the responses.

As far as compounding, it's kind of out of the question. As awesome as that'd be I have limited space, with the hx30 I had to cut out my lower firewall and floor pan to get the downpipe up.

khaoskustoms- you mentioned the borg warner S300. Is the compressor housing the same as what I have now? and how does exhaust size compare? Is that when you mentioned the 9cm being a choke point- being I wouldn't have enough pressure to turn it or it's too small and will reach its peak? This is where I get confused on what models to go with. I understand that a bigger compressor brings more air as long as you can spin it but I don't know what the balance is.

viking427- I still am considering putting the hx-30w back in but like I mentioned with the play- I've got some saying that it's fine and others saying its on its last leg. You said HE-341 would be the next step up- is that the "equivalent" of a BW s300?

mfsuper90- no all the parts are stock (oversized for the machining) I never even thought of that. I'm hoping the guys setting me up with the parts have. Then again they normally build their engines from stratch.

If I am heading in the s300 direction, is the flange what I have? I believe T3. But I noticed on the header it's divided which is found on some turbo flanges, so maybe another will work. I hate to ask so many questions but I want to be sure before I get something.

All set and done I want to be in the realm of 250hp. Am I dreaming running a single?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,737 Posts
First, you need working and accurately installed EGT and boost gauges. Until you do that, anything else is wasted. You don't even know right now how hard you were peddling the HX30. It may have plenty of head-room left.

HE341's are a terrible match on a 4 litre diesel. Same as the HX35's and HY35's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I'm aware. Last year the only gauges I had working were a temp and oil pressure that I threw on I just wanted to drive it that summer. I went through the whole thing and rewired it and everything will be set now. My concern is putting a time bomb back on it that could ruin all the work I've done. With that said I don't want to get another hx-30 unless I know it's my best option.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,737 Posts
I'm aware. Last year the only gauges I had working were a temp and oil pressure that I threw on I just wanted to drive it that summer. I went through the whole thing and rewired it and everything will be set now. My concern is putting a time bomb back on it that could ruin all the work I've done. With that said I don't want to get another hx-30 unless I know it's my best option.
You haven't said what, if anything, is wrong with the HX30.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
784 Posts
Refer to a service manual, it will tell how to check the shaft play in your turbo and weather it is excessive or not.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
3,907 Posts
I'm aware. Last year the only gauges I had working were a temp and oil pressure that I threw on I just wanted to drive it that summer. I went through the whole thing and rewired it and everything will be set now. My concern is putting a time bomb back on it that could ruin all the work I've done. With that said I don't want to get another hx-30 unless I know it's my best option.
Unless the turbine and compressor wheels are touching their respective housings you should be able to put fresh bearings in the HX30W (if they are out if spec).

I don't believe anyone is suggesting there isn't an upgrade, just that it will save you time and likely money in the long run if you can match your experience with some data.

Since you are trying to upgrade, check your drive pressure (pressure in the exhaust manifold) so you can compare apples to apples on the turbine side.

On my NPR the drive pressure tap is in the spacer I had to make for the HY35W. The port for drive pressure is not drilled full size all the way through, the last 1/8" or so is the smallest diameter drill I could get to reach.

I use that as a restrictor to dampen the needle movements.

Others have welded or otherwise plugged the fitting and drilled a small hole in the plug, or used a small MIG welder wire guide tip stuffed in the hose, Dougal says he puts grease in, I believe it's the gauge end of the line.

Many ways to get a smooth reading, and a valuable reading it is.

If you don't have a tach, see if you can hook one up, at least temporarily, as engine speed helps a lot (knowing you have say 10 psi @ 1000 RPM is different than thinking you have that @ 800, or 1200 for that matter).

Best if luck, let us know what you find. :)

P.S. make sure your smoke isn't coming from something else before you rework your install (or as one of our members likes to say, "confirm the problem BEFORE you start buying parts").
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Refer to a service manual, it will tell how to check the shaft play in your turbo and weather it is excessive or not.
From holset's manual, max radial movement is 22 thou and axial is only 5 thousandths. I definitely have more in and out play than that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Unless the turbine and compressor wheels are touching their respective housings you should be able to put fresh bearings in the HX30W (if they are out if spec).

I don't believe anyone is suggesting there isn't an upgrade, just that it will save you time and likely money in the long run if you can match your experience with some data.

Since you are trying to upgrade, check your drive pressure (pressure in the exhaust manifold) so you can compare apples to apples on the turbine side.

On my NPR the drive pressure tap is in the spacer I had to make for the HY35W. The port for drive pressure is not drilled full size all the way through, the last 1/8" or so is the smallest diameter drill I could get to reach.

I use that as a restrictor to dampen the needle movements.

Others have welded or otherwise plugged the fitting and drilled a small hole in the plug, or used a small MIG welder wire guide tip stuffed in the hose, Dougal says he puts grease in, I believe it's the gauge end of the line.

Many ways to get a smooth reading, and a valuable reading it is.

If you don't have a tach, see if you can hook one up, at least temporarily, as engine speed helps a lot (knowing you have say 10 psi 1000 RPM is different than thinking you have that 800, or 1200 for that matter).

Best if luck, let us know what you find. :)

P.S. make sure your smoke isn't coming from something else before you rework your install (or as one of our members likes to say, "confirm the problem BEFORE you start buying parts").
I hear you on getting some data to go off of. It's kinda hard taking a shot in the dark like I am but like I said there was nothing hooked up when I was driving it last summer. Now I've had the thing stripped down so long I just want to get it back on the road.

A tachs another addition I put on this winter, one of the magnetic ones of the alternator but better than nothing. I'll look into getting a pressure tap hooked up in my manifold. Fab shops in the back yard so we'll work something in.

As you said, there are other routes I could take- Is the main reason people are against an HX-35 or HE-341 the probable lag that's going to come with it? Because I'll take a little bit of it. I plan on using the jeep as a daily driver but it's gonna be pretty radical. I've got a dana 60 that I was going to shorten but decided to make a dually jeep. So I'm kinda obligated to be able to roast the tires on the spot, if I have to spool it up first then maybe it'll sound cooler.

Also, I've looked at the turbo mapping websites. You list target hp, a/f, rpms, ect and they plot where you lay out on the map. I know they're not the most reliable sources but it was showing plotting better on the hx35. The site had limited holset maps.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
3,907 Posts
I hear you on getting some data to go off of. It's kinda hard taking a shot in the dark like I am but like I said there was nothing hooked up when I was driving it last summer. Now I've had the thing stripped down so long I just want to get it back on the road.

A tachs another addition I put on this winter, one of the magnetic ones of the alternator but better than nothing. I'll look into getting a pressure tap hooked up in my manifold. Fab shops in the back yard so we'll work something in.

As you said, there are other routes I could take- Is the main reason people are against an HX-35 or HE-341 the probable lag that's going to come with it? Because I'll take a little bit of it. I plan on using the jeep as a daily driver but it's gonna be pretty radical. I've got a dana 60 that I was going to shorten but decided to make a dually jeep. So I'm kinda obligated to be able to roast the tires on the spot, if I have to spool it up first then maybe it'll sound cooler.

Also, I've looked at the turbo mapping websites. You list target hp, a/f, rpms, ect and they plot where you lay out on the map. I know they're not the most reliable sources but it was showing plotting better on the hx35. The site had limited holset maps.
Holset considers their stuff proprietary, so the maps you see are bootleg and / or suspect (IMHO).

Yes, lag is the biggest gripe about either.

Good luck.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,737 Posts
Also, I've looked at the turbo mapping websites. You list target hp, a/f, rpms, ect and they plot where you lay out on the map. I know they're not the most reliable sources but it was showing plotting better on the hx35. The site had limited holset maps.
As Nexxussian said, the maps your are plotting on are likely BS.

Holset maps were only published in a few places. Here is one and the 4BD1T (same displacement as 4BT) barely touches the map. It is not a good choice at all.
Not intercooled:


Intercooled:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,790 Posts
Is the jeep automatic or standard? With an auto and a decently loose stall and the timing restarted to get more hot gasses to the turbine, the hx35 can be tolerable with the lag. There also is inducer wheels that help it spool quicker but I haven't been down that road yet. I also plan on using the hx35 and if it is still too laggy then I am going to build a spool valve for it, but not the butterfly valve.

This is the most subjectable subject on 4btswap. My advice is read all the turbo threads, put the truck together and buy the cheapest and most available turbos first, like the hx35. If it doesn't work for u, u can call Tims turbos and get an 8 cm turbine housing and make the hx35 pretty close to a hy 35 but u'll have to install an external wastegate to bypass extra drive pressure.

Just to be honest, I've ran all the same setup on a 6bt an from my experience if u want to run only one turbo u need smaller injectors. The amount of fuel ur pushing u need compounds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
with the hx30 I had to cut out my lower firewall and floor pan to get the downpipe up.
Why did you have to cut your body up? Here's a shot of mine on a flipped 6BT manifold and it has room on a low rear dump manifold as well with full 3" downpipe. Do you have a build thread with pics? I like checking out what others have done in the same vehicle as I have.

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,974 Posts
Thanks for the responses.

As far as compounding, it's kind of out of the question. As awesome as that'd be I have limited space, with the hx30 I had to cut out my lower firewall and floor pan to get the downpipe up.

khaoskustoms- you mentioned the borg warner S300. Is the compressor housing the same as what I have now? and how does exhaust size compare? Is that when you mentioned the 9cm being a choke point- being I wouldn't have enough pressure to turn it or it's too small and will reach its peak? This is where I get confused on what models to go with. I understand that a bigger compressor brings more air as long as you can spin it but I don't know what the balance is.

viking427- I still am considering putting the hx-30w back in but like I mentioned with the play- I've got some saying that it's fine and others saying its on its last leg. You said HE-341 would be the next step up- is that the "equivalent" of a BW s300?

mfsuper90- no all the parts are stock (oversized for the machining) I never even thought of that. I'm hoping the guys setting me up with the parts have. Then again they normally build their engines from stratch.

If I am heading in the s300 direction, is the flange what I have? I believe T3. But I noticed on the header it's divided which is found on some turbo flanges, so maybe another will work. I hate to ask so many questions but I want to be sure before I get something.

All set and done I want to be in the realm of 250hp. Am I dreaming running a single?
250hp Single turbo and manual transmission are going to be hard to achieve if you are after the perfect, smokeless, instant spool power band. All S300 frame turbos are roughly the same size as an HX35. So quite a bit larger then your HX30. An S200 frame turbo is closer in size to your HX30. Even new, S200's can be found for a decent deal. Now, when it comes to Borg Warner turbos, S200's and S300's are found in many stock applications in the diesel world. Everytime I mention one though, I am refering to the SX series which are designed more for the performance world. I'd like to try an SX200 177257 turbo. I think it would work really well on a 4BT as a single turbo.
 
1 - 20 of 72 Posts
Top