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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Okay, so I expected several folks to post in this section about their water/meth injection setups. Looks like a long wait. What, doesn't anybody run water/meth?

I did quite a bit of research on it and it sounded like an excellent idea, especially for towing. When you hit that engine-frying grade, flip the switch to allow W/M injection, instant cool EGT's! Not only lowers EGT's but if it's done right it can be a power-adder, because you can run more fuel on a more full-time setup. Some setups use a throttle pedal operated solenoid, so W/M only cuts in at full throttle.

Only uses about 20% methanol to water mix, so it's actually cheaper than diesel fuel. Vapors are seriously harmful, extra-extra care is required in venting W/M tank and keeping an eye on fittings. All rubber has to be methanol proof.

Apparently pretty easy to DIY, or get a Snow's or other kits for a few hundred?

So, nobody on this forum is running water/meth injection?
 

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i want to be running it by the end of winter. and i have definatly noticed a lack of people running water/meth on this site:confused:.
it seems to me like all the water meth kits would need to work with something like a throttle positions sensor because i would think it would need to very the ammount injected as throttle changes. I'm just saying that because i would think you would need to put some sort of throttle position sensor on our 4bts. i plan on looking into it a little later.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I see what you're saying on a TPS but from what I've read [many months ago] almost all kits use a simple solenoid valve, much like the VE injection pump fuel shutoff solenoid. Most are used for performance applications, so they want full W/M when they're fueling hard at full throttle.

For a variable shot a guy can use 2 fuel solenoids & multiple injectors with a switch to choose one or both solenoids being energized. For lighter cooling then just one solenoid & injector, and for more then use both solenoids and injectors.

Seems that otherwise, like using a TPS to make variable injection, you would need some kind of motor to move a valve lever for more/less flow? Might get pricey & complicated real quick, don't know.

I mainly want it for some long grades or when towing, when EGT's are getting close to the danger zone, flip a switch and hose it down with Water/Meth to cool it off.
 

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The ones I've been looking at (for the NPR) have a boost pressure sensor and a controller that

1) Turns the system on with the "ignition' switch

2) Injects a small amount at cruise (better economy, supposedly)

3) Adds more injectors (2 stage setup) for "high power" (detected with boost sensor)

Both Snow and Aquamist offer something like that (from the adds I've seen).

I haven't used either, yet, but would like to try one, if for no other reason than to see if the economy claim is accureate ("up to ?% I don't remember how much at the moment).

I don't recall anything about a TPS, or even a pedal position switch (ie to shut off the pump when the pedal is at idle).
 

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ya i never looked into it i just guessed that something not neccisarely a tps would be needed to control it. i guess they come with boost sensors. i just thought they would very the injection somehow and i guess they do
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yes to the above! The pedal idea is Flintstones crude, no doubt.

I have read on other sites from many users that W/M horsepower gains are very real, and EGT control is just as factual. Apparently there's different ways to set it up depending on what your plans are.

A puller wants absolute max power so W/M gives the final edge while protecting from devastating EGT's. Street performance is looking for a gentler application covering different driving conditions. Some use a 2 stage, with either a mild injection or a choice of full-on for tire roasting, using multiple nozzles. Towing use is different still, allowing some increased power but primarily holding EGT's down on long grades etc.

Haven't made up my mind, but for my use I may go with a stripper 'kit' with very simple controls for those times a steep hill comes up or when towing. Otherwise my performance now is pretty satisfying. Once the system is in with water injection to lower EGT's you can start turning screws to more safely boost power.
 

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I think the snow stage 3 kit has a controller that monitors boost and egt's. You set the controller to turn on at a certain boost and egt, you can also tell it how much to inject. you can ramp up the injection as the boost climbs or the egt climbs. I want to run water meth next summer, either be a snow stage 3 or a Devils Own kit.
 

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Oh, and if your in a pinch to refill your water meth, just add winter washer fluid. It's usually a 50/50 mix of water and meth.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Good info, thanks!

One problem is that methanol isn't all that expensive in bulk but it doesn't keep well. Several guys report that within a couple of weeks of opening a container it's starting to lose its 'pop'. You can get a 55 gal drum at $3.25 a gallon, but then it will supposedly spoil very quickly once you open it.

No idea how to prevent that, unless a guy pre-mixed the whole thing and stored it in smaller sealed containers?

I'm not sure how accurate that spoilage info is either.
 

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Where would you pick up bulk methanol? Also does anyone have any pics of homemade Water/meth injection systems>? Liek the parts you need?
 

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Where would you pick up bulk methanol? Also does anyone have any pics of homemade Water/meth injection systems>? Liek the parts you need?
Hi guys, we plan to build a system based on SPLASH system described on another forum. Not quite sure if I can create a link here but if you pm I'll give you coordinates.:dustin::massey::smokin:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yeah, there's a couple of 'How To' on some other CTD forums and a web search should return a few hits too.

Any big city usually has a 'Fuel' dealer, just hit the Yellow Pages. If there's a dragstrip around it's almost a sure thing that methanol is available locally at you fuel dealers.
 

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Where would you pick up bulk methanol? Also does anyone have any pics of homemade Water/meth injection systems>? Liek the parts you need?
Dunno where you could get it but the company I work for buys it by the 55gallon drum, from a company called Univar (last I checked).

I would suspect the 'spoiling' is simple evaporation, even if you cap the drum, each time you draw some out you leave a larger space for the lighter stuff to evaporate into. Then each time you open the barrel it vents. That assumes (yes I know, A** YOU ME) they are getting the barrel sealed when they put the bung back in. Methanol eats the seal, our barrels usually won't re-seal after we open them.
 

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a fellow on the cumminsforum built his own water meth system. He put it in his little toolbox behind the cab. He used a 1000psi pressure washer pump. I've seen a couple pics but I couldn't find them again.
 

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We just picked up the boost pressure switch, nozzles(400 & 600 cc/min),hosing and have a shurflo 12v pump that is 100psi. Figure that we'll try to stay around 0.10 to 0.15 gals/min. Ron, that did the Splash system, has pump engage at 7psi boost, which immediately jumps to 12,or 12.5psi. Figures it gives 30 hp for short bursts. Has a great warning\disclaimer in the write-up. Theres a guy on ebay selling kits for a couple hundred dollars, BeCool.bounce:eek:bounce
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I did some serious research on other's experiments a couple of years ago. We are by no means talking rocket science here!

A couple of VERY important points: Methanol is EXTREMELY TOXIC! It must not be inhaled and it can be absorbed through the skin!

Methanol is also corrosive, so all pipes, tubes, tanks, sealers & components must obviously be methanol proof.

Depending on the system design & engine power level you want between 120psi & 250psi pump, and atomizing injectors. It can take a bit of fiddling to find an injector that can spray a decent quantity and still atomize. We don't want puddling or a stream, but a mist in fairly large quantity.

There are brass irrigation/garden spray nozzles that work well, similar to our injectors. They're available cheap at large farm supply stores. The nozzles should be as close to the manifold as possible so meth doesn't fall out of suspension along the intake tract.

Again obviously, 4BT requirements are 2/3 of 6BT requirements in delivery rate, so that dictates nozzle orifice size/flow rate. That also allows that we could use a smaller pump on a 4BT to realize a 6BT's power/cooling gains.

You can use straight H20, good old water, for just cooling the fire when towing or hard acceleration. Plain water also allows you to turn up your fuel considerably because you can remove up to 300* EGT's with plain water. So in actuality simple water injection can add lots of power if the pump/injectors etc are tweaked, tweaks you could never do without the water injection!

Shurflo pumps come in different types, some designed for more continuous duty than others. Component materials in the pumps vary also, as far as Buna N seals etc. Sureflo will give info on chemical compatability of their pumps. That's not so important with straight water injection [which I lean towards]. Saves the cost & hassles of locating, handling, storing & exposure to methanol.

There's a ramp time: Whatever switch gets flipped, there's a delay until that mixture hits the combustion chambers. Likewise when shutting off there's a residual flow for a bit. You can go analog control as more mechanical type, or fancy electronics digital control depending on your needs & driving style and bank account.

According to Dave [Wannadiesel, a great guy!] the correct setup is to keep adding water or water/meth until it bogs the engine, then back off from that to just before bog for your system setting. This way you know for sure that you're injecting all the cooling water you possibly can.

Also you can do it 2 stage, with multiple nozzles controlled independently.
 

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I was working on my buddy's s-10 and discovered something humorous.

Either someone wanted to try out water/meth injection on the cheap, or they didn't know what they were doing. But there was a vacuum line running to a vacuum chamber, and right next to it was the washer fluid line.

Well, the two lines were swapped. My buddy was annoyed about it, because now he knows where his washer fluid was going! Either way, I put it to rights. Just thought it was funny.
 

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There are a couple of things which concern me with the water/meth principle.

Firstly, just like gas fumigation the methanol will auto-ignite in a diesel engine. This wouldn't be a problem if it were injected at the right time (like diesel is) but being sprayed into the intake it's going to ignite whenever it gets hot enough.

Secondly, it has a greater cooling effect on the exhaust than the intake. This is completely the opposite to what I want.
I want a colder intake (for better air density so less boost is required) and an exhaust that is hot enough to keep my turbo running as efficiently as it can. If you use water to cool your combustion by making steam then you're feeding your turbo higher volume at a lower temperature. This means higher drive pressures and a loss of efficiency.

Maybe it's just me. But no matter which way I look at the extra power adders that people throw into diesels (NOs, propane, methanol etc) I keep seeing more downsides than upsides. The combination of diesel, boost and a good intercooler just seems to win each time.
 

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Dougal, the people that did the work in the original development of water/alcohol injection as we know it today were using Ethanol and Methanol (as opposed to Isopropyl) as it was easier to keep the mixtures below the Lower Explosive Limit of the two (as opposed to Isopropyl).

They found that untill the ignition event, there was not enough heat engergy to seperate the alcohol from the water, thus the only real concern they had was keeping the alcohol from burning, in the cylinder, which since it gives off oxygen artificially leans the mix, resulting in detonation.

A young engineer at Pratt & Whitney was able to demonstrate that.

I know the diesel has a lareger ammount of heat energy ambient in the chamber before the ignition event, but the point being, if you maintain the mix below the LEL of the alcohol you're using (something less than 50% for either Ethanol or Methanol) then you should not have any issues with combustion of said alcohol in the cylinder.

FWIW the whole point of the alcohol in the mix is for it's freezing point depression of the water (kinda hard to pump a solid block of ice).

The engineer I mentioned earlier, his initial development was with water, tap water from the local city water supply to be specific. He later had to re-test his results to find a mix of alcohol that would lower the freezing point enough to be usefull, without burning within the cylinder.

Admittedly it's with gas burneres but there are several hundreds of thousands of operational hours of use of systems like these in large recip powered aircraft (the DC-6 family of aircraft we operate at work still use this today).

They are closer in design to the diesels we have (on a cylinder to cylinder bassis) than the gassers that most of the modern systems are designed for, but the chemistry hasn't changed.

Another aside, I can run (within the rules) whatever amount of water injection on our Salt Flat car that I want, but I have to let the tech crew watch me fill the tank, with pure water, then they seal it. (maybe not pertinent, but I thought it might be interesting.The idea behind the seal of course is to keep anyone from filling it with something exotic.;)
 
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