Twisted... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the IHC and FMC T19 trans are different

https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/t18_t19.htm

http://www.atlas-tc.com/pdf/712/712531.pdf

 

I have seen a SAE3 to Ford sb T18/19/435 pattern. It was a shallow cast iron bell housing/clutch fork. But seem to be rare and hard to find. Never seen a SAE2.

Actually just found the SAE3

[url]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hard-to-find-SAE-3-bell-housing-np540-np435-nv4500-sm420-sm465-t18-t19-/111289952853?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19e965ea55&vxp=mtr

[/URL]This is not the shallow one Ive seen before, this one must use a long input shaft.

 

I wasn't aware all those trannys had the same front dimensions. Granted SBC stuff is universal, I just wasn't aware the NP540 and T-19 were used on GM stuff. I'm not positive, but I thought the Ford NP435 was different from GM 4 speeds of the day?? I have NO idea where IH stuff comes into the equation. BUT you are hopefully beginning to see some of what I was getting at regarding the co$t of utilizing off the beaten path if you don't already happen to have the necessary components. My own build is has such an item. There is NO way it would have been financially reasonable to build my front axle if I didn't already own the F150 and F250 versions of it to make a hybrid with the desired components. I could have easily bought a prized Ford Dana 60 with loads of trick extras for what it would have cost to go out and purchase the axles to build my hybrid and I still wouldn't have had the mounting system I wanted to use.

 

The close ratio T19 used by IH in the Diesel Scout used a SAE 4.

 

The close ration T19 used by IH in the Diesel Scout used a SAE 4.

Did the OP say he had the diesel version, I missed that. Even so, that would be 2 sizes he'd need to drop from his current adapter. I've seen loads of single step (not cheap) but never ran across a 2 SAE size change with 1 adapter. I haven't ever heard of an SAE4 plate for a 4/6B series.
None of these comments means those parts don't exist. They very well may, but they aren't common if available.

 

I'm not sure if it's a gas or diesel version. At this point I think I'll just try and sell the adapter and buy the one that'll work. I'll have to research what that may be. If it becomes too cost prohibitive, I'll dump the T19 idea all together. I'm so new to this, I'm just not sure what I'm looking at or for. I'll just have to set everything on the garage floor when it's all removed and start piecing it together. I know the transfer case is a direct bolt on to the T19, so that won't be a hassle. Texas bolt to Texas bolt.

 

To my knowledge (which isn't always the greatest)

The 435 was used in ford and chevy applications (I assume the only difference between ford vs chevy is bearing retainers and input shaft, and of course bolt pattern) same with the 540 in larger trucks.... chevy only used it 2-3 years as an opt along with the sm465. I don't believe chevy ever used the t19.

 

So did the Ford and GM trannys have the same length on the input shafts of their tranny? That is where my concern came with using the same adapter. You can almost always get different ID/OD pilot bearings/bushings but getting them spaced out from the flywheel........that's another story.

I too saw the different patterns and I know 1st hand that some Fords had a significantly wider length between the two upper bolts than others:happyfinger: Thanks Ford! And I've wasted money as I'd be willing to wager that everyone of us has by buying parts we couldn't reasonably use and ended up having to just eat them. That is why I won't buy anything that I don't KNOW is a screaming enough deal that I can make money off it if I can't use it. Otherwise I go home and take the chance it will be sold by the time I've taken to research whether it would be a waste of my money or most likely effort. I make it a rule to try to NEVER pay more than I believe I could turn around and sell something QUICKLY for, if things don't work out for me. I've had to cut projects loose before and I don't like to have a fire sale and just lose my A$$ on them. Unfortunately there is ALWAYS going to be those items you just have to bite the bullet and pay more than you believe the are truly worth but they ARE worth it because you need them and that guy has it! Don't worry, you'll always find a dozen of them for way less money the week after you hand over the money for yours! It happens to all of us-ya just have to let it go!
Believe me the first time you are toodling along and drive by a storefront with a large plate glass front window and you see your reflection cruising by-you can't remember the money you spent, the knuckles you bloodied, the fights with the Mrs, the parts you got burned on, or the hours you spent on 4BTswaps trying to figure out what's what and which way made the most sense to actually take the build. You'll just smile and feel the pride of knowing you made that vehicle possible with your own two hands! Its OK to go out and find a few of those stores before your build is finished so you'll know what route to take on its true maiden trip!

 

Well said Twisted,But you forgot to mention the parts that you hold on to and trip over for years and 2 weeks after you scrap them you or a friend end up needing it
The look you get from people that ask about your rig when you tell them that you designed and built it yourself is priceless,to most that idea is unimaginable
That look alone is worth the price of admission

 

Twisted

I don't know

Eggman, this is so true.... I really enjoy the complements when I'm out, but sometimes it can almost be a pain... Example ..You are in a hurry and 3 different people in a C-store stop and ask you the entire story of your build... I don't want to be rude so I tell them each time... It is a Compliment ... But I just wanted a pack of gum...lol

 

It's true the attention others will give you will be something you won't understand unless you've driven something cool before. i had a sleeper '83vRanger that was ridiculous for a totally quiet 4 cyl-no attn whatsoever, until I'd beaten them! My '76 Bronco on the otherhand! EVERYWHERE I went I met someone, most times several someones! Unless you hide it they will come knock on your door to offer to buy it. Gas stations, work, hardware store, literally everywhere folks would either be standing around it or waiting in their car for me to come out so they could ask about it or sit in it for a picture etc. I took loads of people for rides-EVEN an elderly Irish NUN! But that vehicle had eye as well as sound appeal. Your Scout will have people following you in traffic, pulling up at lights, as well as gas stations and stores to ask about it. It is amazing how many people remember the classic iron and if something is "off" about it they want to know what you've done to it! My Bronco was a people magnet with the 302. When I put the nasty 351W in it was ridiculous. The people who would normally just wave or give a thumbs up will go to the effort of pulling up and try to ask about it as you are driving along! Get ready for it! Be cordial and promote the hobby, its a dying skill that needs all the help it can get!

 

There is SO little "promotion" of the tool using skills that I feel it is a "responsibility" of us that are tool users to do what we can to preserve these skills.
So YES take the time to tell your story to those that are interested.

 

"So did the Ford and GM trannys have the same length on the input shafts of their tranny?"

I know they shared the 6 1/2" stick out length on smaller trans.

"I took loads of people for rides-EVEN an elderly Irish NUN!"

That was one cool nun

clhman, be prepared for alot of future conversation. Every time I pull into anywhere, someone is headed for the Bronco. AZ has many old car clubs and motorcycle clubs and in the summertime Ive literally had "gangs" of people heading my direction smiling and wanting to talk. You'll be popping the hood constantly. In Prescott a car guy visiting from Sweden offered big money for it and I have been asked to sell it at least 3 dozen times. I tell them they dont realize how much is into it and they probably wouldnt like it if they had it for awhile. It was built specifically for me. I think the novelty of it would wear off soon for others but its the best thing Ive done for the Bronco, love it and wouldnt have it any other way. I dont build for others(cept family) but also be prepared for many offers of $$$$ dollars to do their XXXX build.

 

"I dont build for others(cept family) but also be prepared for many offers of $$$$ dollars to do their XXXX build."
Red,That's no lie all of our rigs are "experimental"....If you can't build it yourself you probably don't really need it,and from a liability standpoint you couldn't charge enough to cover your ass when something goes wrong.

 

Thanks for all the comments. I agree. Twiisted, I understand what you mean. I don't want to pay for something that I can't readily dump if need be. This t19 is costing me $100, bell housing to xfer case adapter. To me, that's worth the risk. Also, there is something nostalgic about using a trans, xfer case and axles that are all IH.

By the way, my scout (AKA 'the beater') is primer grey with a dog of a stock 304 under the hood and it already stops traffic. I can't imagine what it'll be like when it's done. Going to eventually do a international red paint job and a frame off restoration.

I also agree that this is a dying hobby. Thanks to all of you here for keeping it going for the next generation.


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If that IH trans will use a Ford or GM bellhousing thats great. Use it. however if you get into having to pony up money for a custom piece, you really should question using an oddball trans when that custom money could likey get you a Ford or GM 4 speed with a 205 already on it-AND you could sell that IH unit to someone needing it for a frame off resto. Soapbox time: It is a pet peeve of mine when people say they are doing a frame off "restoration" with everything custom on it. A RESTORATION is just that--restoring something. Otherwise you are just doing a custom build.: Anyway you thinking you have an IH trans in the tunnel is irrelevant when other than the bolt up patterns it is the same as any other T-19. It won't feel any different, it will have just cost more and been harder to source parts for. I'm building a Jeep, right. It is FAR from stock so I couldn't justify the hassle of trying to keep the T176 it had in it for nostalgia when I really knew OD would be so much better in the end run. Likewise the pile of killer '86 Laredo stuff I had. It would have been a crime to put all those rare parts that someone wanting to do a full on RESTORATION "needed". I sold over a thousand dollars in Laredo specific interior components! Price your parts accordingly and folks who know their value will get them not Joe Schmo who will just be wanting them for a topless mud thrasher to mount with self tapping screws to his galvanized threaded together home plumbing "rollcage"! If you are are beginning with a beater or neglected rig you have nothing to worry about keeping original. The flip-side of that would be if you did a total resto esp on a diesel version and put a 4BT in! You could have a resto-mod kinda like a 302 powered '69 Mustang and you do a full restoration but put a BigBlock 428FE in it! However with the amount of mods many of us are doing just to get components that will live behind the 4BT (or whatever engine) that a "restoration" or even a resto-mod isn't really possible. I would love to see or have the opportunity to do a CJ10a tug and keep the Nissan diesel and put on a sweet wooden flatbed to keep it period looking. I'd keep it 2wd and 8 lug, maybe even lowered a tad with some aluminum aftermarket wheels(tho I'm a sucker for steelies). Ah I've gone rambling again

Anywho all I'm trying to do is say I understand you got a deal on that IH trans. Don't stay focused on that too much. Keep looking at more reasonable alternatives to get your rig going.

 

I agree. You got me there. It's not a restoration. My plan is to redo everything from the frame up. It may not be all original, but it will be all gone through and made right / corrected.

A friend told me that we have a transmission exchange place here in town. If I can trade that eaton for an adapter that would work, I'd be happy. Even if it were to be even steven.

Also, there's a set of Dana 44 axles with 3.54's in them for $200 for sale locally. I'm tempted, but I just don't want this to turn into a 2 year project. I only have a two car garage and parking outside in the winter up here sucks, so it would be great if by the time winter rolls around, the beater could be rolling under its own power. I feel like if I keep adding things to do to it, my time budget will get blown. I know that I will encounter unforeseen problems, but the way I see it, I'd like to keep the stuff that works.

I also agree that if ditching the t19 and d300 is the way to go financially, then I'll do it.


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Play with those 3.54's and your 44's on Grimjeeper depending on what it would take to get them under it might be a cost effective addition to your "big picture".

 

I've repeatedly tried to suggest that, but............

When I first started I thought swapping axles was a big thing too. 4 U bolts, 4 driveshaft bolts, E brake cable and 1 hydraulic brake line and she's outta there! After shredding and rebuilding a couple 7.5s in my sleeper Ranger I began looking at 8.8s and found out how much simpler moving a couple axle saddles was to get a MUCH better part all without having to buy new gears and set them up, AGAIN!
3.54s would allow a modern OD trans/TC combo AND more importantly, more gears to use and keep the engine in the powerband! And likely not be much different in the grand $$ scheme because of the custom parts using that SAE2 and IH trans could run into!

You could even do the axles and tires now and be driving it while figuring out the tranny adapter. Those gears would allow your rig to pull the 32-33" tires you want anyway! They are the underneath work anyway. You can do 99% of the engine stuff without having to lay on the cold AK ground!

 

I know, I know. I'm hard headed. I am just not wanting to bite off more than I can chew on my first build. I consider myself a fairly decent shade tree mechanic, but I also am doing this alone, so I don't have an expert looking over my shoulder.

The axles in question are from a Scout II, so theoretically would they just bolt on? I don't want to worry about caster or spacing or anything like that...


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Measure the spring pad placement on your axles and on those to remove all doubt but if the frame widthh specs are the same then they "should" bolt right in!! That would be a NO brainer!!!! Were talking a 1 day job with new U bolts and a reciprocating saw to just cut the old ones loose! I thought you were talking about some Waggy axles. If they are Scout stuff you really should check them out!

 

I give! I'm crying Uncle! I'll buy the 3.54 axles. I'm convinced. Now I need to decide on the drivetrain. I'd love to go Dodge from rear main to transfer case. That way I won't have to worry about adapters or anything else. Thanks for your persistence.

 

I give! I'm crying Uncle! I'll buy the 3.54 axles.

Noooooo! don't buy it because of anything said on this site! I'm just trying to tell you to check EVERYTHING you have the opportunity to. THEN and ONLY then decide which way to jump. Once you get so far into a pathway you will lose the economic ability for it to make sense to change directions-you can be forced to buy expensive parts because they are necessary to finish the task but you have too much $$ or time invested in the other parts to say you want a different side differential or you wand an OD trans but you've spent a load on custom parts to put a rare IH trans in that NO one else will ever buy off you but No other trannys will mate to it without MORE cu$tom work.
You are about to embark on a large process. All any of us want is for you to actually finish it and once done be happy with all the labor and money spent.

 

I agree. I've read a bazillion threads on here. There are quite a few that full of a lot of hot air. When a member gives advice, I look for their build thread. There I can decide if they have any 'street-cred'. If they don't have a build thread or the experience to back it up, I'll take it with a grain of salt. Twiisted has given a lot of advice so far, and to me it looks like he knows what he is talking about. That's the greatest thing about this forum is that there is a huge collection of knowledge about this particular subject.

 

Twiisted has given a lot of advice so far, and to me it looks like he knows what he is talking about. That's the greatest thing about this forum is that there is a huge collection of knowledge about this particular subject.

Please understand the "advice" I'm trying to impart is for you to really research what parts are "possible" to use, not just the oddball stuff you have. There is a reason they aren't sought after and used in lots of swaps. You can very well come out money ahead and with stronger and easier to source parts. One of my favorite combinations to recommend is a set of first Gen Dodge Dana 61/71 axles with 3.07 gearing to use with a non OD tranny. They are a good strong option and are usually dirt cheap as hardly anyone can use a 3.07 on a "built rig". But they would be great in a lightweight diesel swap project without OD. So for folks on a strict budget that cant afford to buy a $1000+ NV4500 they could keep the 4 speed that came on their engine and put in a divorced TC or pick up a CHEAP 4 speed since hardly anyone wants them anymore-everyone thinks the NV4500 is the only trans worth having anymore.
I don't know it all-far from it. I have built or modded quite a few different types of vehicles. I have made quite a few of the mistakes that I try to warn folks off of. I always try to give advice to get what the OP wants the cheapest and/or easiest route.
No one can tell anyone else the best path for them to take. We all have different value on vehicle's specs, needs, wants, economy, power, speed, off-road/on-road capability, strength, cost of the build, show quality vs utility, etc. Then there is the resources local to the OP that can greatly affect the price of used parts, combined with the OP's skill level and amount of work they can/intend to do themselves.
Sometimes it just makes TOO much sense to look into a great deal on a part even if you already have something on your rig-esp if the parts in question can offer even the slightest improvement to your end product. It may not seem like it but a .5 change in final ratio can be the difference between your engine being in its powerband or struggling or being far enough over it to begin taking a significant mpg hit. if your parts need rebuilding anyway it won't cost much more in the grand scheme many times to rebuild with stronger or better suited parts! You have to have a game plan laid out though along with all the options you could use if they fell into your lap!
That is the advice I was trying to give to you.

 

Also Russ, I'm just building it as a toy. Around town cruising, high MPG and overall simplicity. No rock crawling.

 

Here are my cards on the table...

I'm a black and white kind of guy. If you give me something to fix, I'll take it apart and teach myself how to fix it. When it comes to this, I'm struggling. There is no right or wrong answer. There are many variables and I don't want to make the wrong decision. I will list what I have and then what options I've been mulling over and maybe you guys can help sway me in one direction over another. I want a vehicle that will be reliable and something that I can fix myself. I don't need to tow with it as I have a 6.7 Powerstoke that does that job now. I may what to plow with it. I want to keep that option open. I want it to have enough power for it to get out of its own way. Not sure what hp that will leave me with. 180-200hp maybe? I got a P-pump so I could have more options. That will come after final install.

I also am not looking for a 2 year drawn out swap. I'd like to have it together under its own power by Aug 31st. It's not going to be a trailer queen, just a reliable, good vehicle.

What I Have:

2000 MT45 Bread Van, CPL 1839, Sae 2 Eaton 5 speed non OD 2WD trans - paid $3500. I plan to strip it and sell anything I can to recoup some money.
The motor runs strong and so far I think I'm just going to re-gasket it, KDP and a 3 or 4K GSK before installation.

1980 Scout II 100" wb (no chance for a divorced set-up)
304ci gas (going to sell)
727 trans (that I can't use behind a diesel)
Dana 44 pass drop 2.72
Dana 44 limited slip 2.72
I will need to lift it at least 2.5" to clear the motor.
I would like to run 32x11.50x15's

Access to a $100 IH T19 trans
Access to D44's with 3.54's, not sure if limited slip $200 for pair

Here is what I see:

1. Use a T19 that will bolt directly to my Dana 300. Figure out an adapter to marry it to the engine. Maybe I can get a Ford bell housing for it?

Cost: $100 for trans, maybe $500-800 for adapter, clutch, pressure plate, starter, etc.

Pros: Easy (outside of the adapter), could reuse some parts. Keep axles and xfer case.

Cons: According to Grimjeeper calculator, at idle in 1st gear, I'm at 7mph. I could always plow in low, but it sounds like low end will suffer. Not as much versatility with gears on the low end.



2. Junk everything. I have access to a pair of 3.54 Scout II Dana 44's that should be bolt on. Then I'm in the market for a 5 speed OD trans. Maybe buy a ZF, but then I'd need to find a pass drop xfer case that would work for me. Sounds like that could be difficult. If I bought a NV4500 with a 205, then it would be easy, but it sounds like it would be fairly costly.

Cost: Could be $1500 by the time I get a NV4500, 205 and all the fixings.

Pros: Proven formula that works.

Cons: Cost. Add in the axles and misc overruns and I could top $2000.



3. Original idea. Run a 47rh with my tail housing and my D 300, should work. Keep my gears, shifter, etc.

Cost: Maybe $1000

Pros: Don't have to hang a clutch pedal, master cylinder, slave cylinder, etc. Could reuse proven D300 case.

Cons: Worried that it will be a dog with that trans. Not as much fun to drive.


In the end, I want to make the right decision to make a bulletproof drivetrain that will suit my needs. I'd like to keep it cheap, but I also don't want to cut corners and do things I regret in the long run.

Help! I'm frustrated and torn between these 3 choices. I've read until my eyes are ready to bleed and I just can't arrive at a decision that will work for me. Seems like there is just not a good answer.

 

Look at what 1952b3b23 is doing with a ranger OD. You might not have the wheelbase to do this but it only adds 7" to the t19 and gives you a 8sp trans. I have one and like it because I had a sm465/np205 that was verified good, so this was a good route for me

May make option #4 lol

 

If you go with a Ford trans the round 6 bolt pattern gives you a large range of T-cases that will bolt to it and output/input shaft options are there but I cant detail them from memory but before I settled on the divorced 203/205 i found that most any thing was possible a lot of it with stock parts.....That's just what you wanted to hear I'm sure MORE research
Steve.

 

!st gen Dodges had a Getrag 5 speed OD with a pass side drop t-case. If you can find an '89-93 Dodge Cummins Diesel you could scavenge the adapter plate through to the TC output yokes! grab those cheap scout axles and you are in business!

Also something for you to remember is you can drive a 5 speed without using OD. It will not behave any differently than a straight 4 speed! If you can find one at a good price and put a GM/Dodge pass side TC to it you can keep your stock high speed Scout axles you already own. You could then install those 3.54 geared Scout II axles next summer if you wanted to. Bu believe me its a lot easier to set up your powertrain right the first time. This is even more true with these swaps since everything has to have an adapter plate to be installed-there is NO engine that can bolt directly to a Cummins 3.9-5.9 B series engine. The adapters can and usually are very expensive so its important to think ahead if you already think you may want to make other improvements to your project later on. Try to figure out a way to either get the right transmission right the first time OR pick an adapter that will allow you to swap on the trans you ultimately think you want next go 'round!

You seem to want to stick with a pass drop front axle so you should sit down and research all the transfercases that are strong enough with pass drop. Then figure out what transmissions came stock with them Then figure out what transmissions can be adapted to them and the cost of those adapters.

The reason for this is you may be able to get a Ford adapter with a Jeep Dana 300, a Ford SBF ZF5, and an adapter to mate the ZF ad 300 for less than a GM NV3500, GM adapter, and a GM pass drop TC or a Dodge 1st gen assembly like I described above.

Another option would be to get a set of Grand Wagoneer Dana 44 axles with a driver's side drop and that would open up the ability to use newer Ford and Dodge trans/TC combos as is! I think (not sure on this one) that post '91 GM 4x4s had driver's side drop TCs as well. Those GW axles can usually be gotten pretty cheap and tend to be in ready to run condition since most GWs were grocery getters or around town soccer mom mobiles!


If you manage to get enough other pieces cheap enough and come in far enough under budget you could just spring for a custom TC that could be oriented any way you need!


Also "3200 spring before installation" That is a rotary pump upgrade. P-pumps generally have a 3 or 4 K GSK. Again this falls into that research what is possible for what you have. Knowing these things will greatly improve your decision making ability.

 

Also "3200 spring before installation" That is a rotary pump upgrade. P-pumps generally have a 3 or 4 K GSK. Again this falls into that research what is possible for what you have. Knowing these things will greatly improve your decision making ability.

I'm guilty there. All I know so far is that it is easier to do with the motor out, so I'll research that further soon.